I switched the dual pump system to a single in-tank 255 lph pump. I gave it a hefty (12 gauge) new ground wire, just to be safe. Everything seemed fine for a very long time (6 months or more).
Now the ground pin on the fuel pump connector (outisde of pump hanger to harness) gets so hot that it cracks open the plastic connector. It's the only spot it the pump wiring that gets hot. I put a thermocouple to it while it ran and it was getting upwards of 130°F after about 2 minutes of operation.
Everything's been checked by myself and family members who are also mechanically inclined. I would suspect a bad contact, but I've checked that and even put some dielectric grease in there to really make sure the contact is good. The pump itself is only pulling 7.7 amps, which doesn't seem like enough to cause this much heat.
Has this ever happened to anyone else? Is it "normal"?
Hmmm... Yeah, I haven't got anything like that....odd... They said they can look up my car's calibration number if I give them the engine application number off the block.... ??? I thought that just told you which type of car it went in, which should be obvious, because it's STILL IN THE CAR. I gave them the VIN, but they said that wouldn't help them look it up. I figured the VIN, being unique to every car, ought to be all they need to look up the thing in their records.
Calibration code stickers appeared on our door frames in 1987, at least for the other 49 states. I have not seen one before a 1987 model. However, since we know that California revolves around its own bubble when it comes to cars, it's possible that some pre-1987 cars had them in that state.
In any case, there should be a sticker under the hood, either on the fan shroud, or on the radiator core support (or maybe on the underside of the hood itself) showing your emissions system. There may be a California-only code there. That would be about the only easily-accessible area on the car that would have anything related to a calibration code. Otherwise, you could pull the computer and see if there's a calibration code sticker on the computer body.
LOL. Okay. Yeah, I have the catalyst sticker that says what stuff I've got (EGR and such). I never knew there was a number that gave you more specifics like injector sizes. I've been over this entire car in recent weeks. I think there isn't a single bolt or weld that I'm not on a first name basis with and I've never seen a sticker that says "calibration" anywhere on it.
I'm getting pretty tired of CA's little bubble. Thinking of leaving the state along with all the businesses (seriously, they're dropping like flies over here).
I went to the Ford dealership recently to ask about my CFI injectors (see here) and they wanted to know my "calibration number" which in some way tells them what emissions equipment I'm supposed to have, including injector type, and other stuff. They acted like this was a number unique to each car, kind of like a VIN number. I told them I'd never heard of such a thing and that the only identifying numbers on my car are the VIN and license plate number. They came out and looked all over for it (telling me it's usually on the driver's side door frame), but couldn't find it, ending their search with "well that's strange....".
I want to ask you guys if you've heard of this emissions "calibration number" and if your cars have one.
It's possible I do have one and the Ford guys' brains were on vacation, but I don't know what it is or where to find it.
As soon as I get time, I'll fire up my 83 and if it decides to surge I'll have the new ignition module handy and ready to swap to confirm the fix.
I hope it helps! Of course, just cuz it worked for me doesn't mean it'll fix every EEC-III CFI with an idle surge out there.
I'd say take a look at your timing marks and if they are erratic and jumping around like I described before, there's a good chance a new module will help out.
I would say to follow the following troubleshooting guide:
1) Test all sensors, solenoids and switches (relays). The three 'S's. 2) Check all vacuum components for leaks, including lines. 3) Test continuity and check for shorts/crossover on all sensor and solenoid wires between the components and the EEC. 4) Test the ENTIRE ignition circuit, including coil and plug wires. Do a spark test and make sure the module is getting the appropriate amount of power at the right times and that it is capable of acting on a "spark" signal from the EEC (the orange wire). 5) Check your distributor cap and rotor and rotor alignment. 6) Fuel system tests. Do both a pressure test at the throttle body and a volume test of both pumps, together AND individually. If you get volume, but no pressure, you probably have a bad regulator, but a bad check valve in your fuel pumps is also possible. After the car is off, the pressure at the TB should be held for a pretty long while (my regulator took a couple days to drop to 35). Also check for any kinks in the lines and replace the fuel filter. Clean the injectors. 7) Pull codes from the EEC-III. (I'll post more on my adventures in that happy land later, as I want to go to bed.) Fix whatever it's complaining about, if anything, then repeat this whole process. If it doesn't complain about anything (code 1-1 or no codes) then it could be the EEC module itself. The EEC-III has separate circuits inside the module for different tasks. For example, each solenoid has a different circuit. If you did something stupid while playing with one of the solenoids you'll damage that solenoid's circuit inside the EEC module. The car will still run and the EEC will still do other stuff, but, for example, if you damage the EGR solenoid circuit then the EEC will not be able to open and close the EGR causing you to fail your smog test. This kind of failure will also not give you a code, because the circuit is unavailable to generate the code in the first place. (WARNING: this is all according to some stuff I read, I forget where, but it makes sense if you think about it. I'll try to verify it somehow.) Rinse. 9) Repeat. Results may vary. Ask your doctor before using. Common side effects are frustration, skinned knuckles, headache, and loss of brain cells due to exposure to gasoline fumes.
This all assumes that your base timing (cam to crank, set when you first put the cam in and align the timing gears!) is correct, and that the lobes on the inductive ring on the harmonic balancer are still intact and in the correct spot relative to the crank position sensor (one lobe directly under the CPS at 10 degrees BTDC).
ANOTHER THING YOU CAN CHECK is your exhaust system. Make sure the cats or the ler are not partially clogged. Check the weird heat control valve on the left exhaust manifold (if it's stuck closed, you got problems). Clean out all carbon, "far as the curse is found".
So, I spoke to "my local Ford dealer" about the injectors. The girl behind the parts counter said that the 5.0L CFI injectors for the "CA/NY emissions application" are DIFFERENT than those for the rest of the U.S.
She e-mailed Ford HQ to confirm if a "green top" injector was used on the CA 5.0L engines stock and to see if these are the same as the 3.8L injectors (which are also a different part number). She says she'll give me a call when she hears back from them.
With it running I was able to diagnose it. Put the old module in, idle surging, put the new module in, no idle surging.
With the new module it idles smoothly, exactly where I set it and where CA wants it. The spark advance timing adjustments made by the EEC are a lot smoother too. Before I would watch the timing and it would kind of waver around (it'd fluctuate erratically +/-3 degrees). Now it holds steady and doesn't move until I rev the engine or change gear. When it does change it is a smooth adjustment. So, for the future, if your checking the timing and your mark is moving erratically (looking like it's "vibrating" a bit is normal because of the strobe effect from the timing light) you should check over the whole ignition system. Of course, none of my tests showed there to be anything really wrong with the ignition module, that was just an act of desperation on my part.
Btw jcassity, I'm going to go by the Ford dealer soon and see if I can convince them to look something up for me. I have two stock CA 5.0 throttle bodies with green injectors. One of them I got from a guy who is one of the best mechanics I've ever known and he said that the whole TB was stock, never messed with. He got it ages ago, shelved it for years, and then gave it to me. I'll bet you that CA required Ford to put green top injectors on the CA 5.0s, that's what I'm going to try to find out. I hate this state.
It still sounds iike your car is runnng in limp mode after you so called "reset the computer".
I don't think it is, but it's always possible. I "reset the computer" by disconnecting the battery for a couple hours. Usually having no power for a while clears it. At least that's how it's done on my EEC-IV cars.
Quote from: softtouch;364650
Some voltage and resistance checks from the 84 shop manual....
Those are the same as in my 1983 shop manual. Everything tests fine... well... until today....................(see below)
Quote from: jcassity;364648
those were just quotes from my diy link,, could've been helpful to you if you needed it.
did you notice the part where you do a fuel pump test while driving the car?
you can never ever get a good test with the car just sitting there at idle or even in gear and braking, gotta drive it and watch the pres between gears, nothing lower than 20psi is allowed at highest point / rpm of each gear in my opinion. I am not saying this is your problem, just letting you know.
(BTW, I've now bookmarked that DIY link. Good stuff in there.) It was THIS post that led me to the solution of my current no start problem.....but you guys are going to hate me when I tell you want it was.....
Last night I was sulking in the garage, staring at the car, when I remembered jcassity's post about the fuel pumps and fuel pressure. I'd already checked the fuel pressure before several times while trying to solve the surging and it tested fine, (and I couldn't drive it around at the moment, obviously), but I hadn't done a pressure test since this no start problem began!
Normally that would be first thing after checking the ignition system, but since I saw the injectors pushing out fuel and I had done a test not too long ago (and recently replaced the pressure regulator) I didn't think it would help. My dad came into the garage, saw me attaching the pressure gauge and tried to talk me out of it, saying it was a "waste of time" for the reasons I just listed. But I hooked it up anyway and turned on the key and ... nothing... A paultry 3 PSI. I switched it on and off several times and the most pressure that built up was 4 PSI.
I have to tell you guys: I've never been more excited in my life to have low fuel pressure!
Finally! Something I can DO!
Now for the best bit: It's definitely the pumps.
I disconnected the fuel line ahead of the in-line high pressure pump and I removed the pump relay. I attached a piece of fuel line to the high pressure pump with the other end leading into a measuring cup (capacity of about a liter). I jumpered the fuel pump relay to give battery power directly to the pumps for about 10 seconds and then checked how much fuel went into the measuring cup. (Basic volume test.)
PRACTICALLY NOTHING. About 10 mL. I did the volume test several times, it kept giving me nothing, and then suddenly it just started pumping out fuel like there was no tomorrow. I hooked the fuel line to the TB back up and tried to start the car. It fired right up and ran GREAT! Fuel pressure was about 41 PSI. I let it run for a little, while watching the fuel pressure and waited. Suddenly the pressure started to drop and the car started to struggle at a little under 30 PSI. I turned it off and the pressure stopped dropping. That was a couple hours ago and the pressure is still holding.
My pressure regulator is still good which means I'm not leaking fuel through it into my return line, which means it's an intermittent problem with one or both of the pumps. Now, I'm not going to say that new pumps will solve my surging, because there's no way to verify that yet, but it WILL solve my no start.
I feel like if I'm going to go through the bother of dropping the tank I should put in a quality pump that will support any modifications I decide to make to the car down the road (such as SEFI, H.O. CFI, or whatever). AND I want to use just one pump, in-tank, just in case I ever add a dual exhaust. (I'm figuring save time and money later.)
Has anyone used a high flow pump (255 lph is WAY higher than the stock 66 lph) on a stock CFI setup? I don't really see it as being an issue, but I don't want to kill my pressure regulator or new pump due to ignorance.
Special thanks to jcassity and softtouch, thank you for coming on this wild goose chase with me. If you guys are ever in northern CA, I owe you lunch or something. Hopefully when I fire it up with a new pump everything will work perfectly with no surge (fingers crossed).
Now that I'm done responding, here's some updates to the continuing saga:
Somebody, probably my dad, mentioned the neutral start switch. I initially dismissed this as I am getting power to everything and the car does crank and sometimes run for a second. BUT! Having nothing else to do I decided to strip my ignition circuit of "non-essentials" and check my voltages as I removed each extra component in the circuit. Fortunately there were really only two things: the neutral start switch and the instrument cluster. Disconnecting the instrument cluster improved my voltage to the ignition module, coil and EEC power relay in "run", but didn't do much for me in "start". Bypassing the neutral start switch however, oh boy, I gained a whole VOLT of power going to the coil and ignition module in "start" ("run" voltages stayed mostly the same). Spark quality also improved (now is a blue arc, but my dad says it still isn't as bright as it should be), but the car still won't start. So, though I was getting power through the neutral start switch, perhaps the switch is partially closed or wearing out and has a lot of resistance to it?
Even so, I don't think this is my main problem, and I'm certainly not going to pass smog without my instrument cluster. What about the alternator and voltage regulator? Can they cause this kind of "starts but won't run" behavior?
Yes, softouch has been extremely helpful! :D The DS3 alignment info was some fo the best I've come across so far and cleared up a lot of confusion for me.
Quote from: jcassity;364599
Do not mix injectors, yours for the CFI must be low impedence, most multiport injections are high impedence.
Good to know. It was kind of tempting as I do have a bunch of extra multiport injectors.
Quote from: jcassity;364599
IM not sure how you ever got the car to run with the fast idle diapharm crashed like that,seems like you should have had a vac leak there , guss you got lucky and the internals didnt allow it.
My guess is that the diaphragm collapsed in such a way that it sealed off the vacuum passage. Also I've noticed that these CFI cars seem to be able to handle a vacuum leak a lot better than EFI cars. Don't know why, but this car was able to run with only a little bit of trouble with a fair size vacuum leak, while my van (4.0 EFI) with a smaller vacuum leak can't even idle.
Quote from: jcassity;364599
Info on your TPS................. ...the voltage reading on your meter should be around .5-.9 vdc.
Actually it's different for the EEC-III. Because the EEC-III uses a 9 volt reference instead of a 5 volt (like the EEC-IV), the correct voltage is nearly double (about 1.6 to 2.2 V). Also, the TPS on the EEC-III (or at least on this one) is not adjustable. I'm reading about 1.8 V off of my TPS with closed throttle, so I should be good on that front.
Quote from: jcassity;364599
Some cars got two pumps. One low presure electric pump in the tank and a high presure pump near the fuel filter.
I think I have two pumps, but I'm not sure. I do hear a pump come on when I turn on the key and the fuel pressure at the throttle body shrader valve is 39 psi and constant. I also see fuel squirting out of the injectors while cranking, so I think my fuel delivery is working just fine.
Quote from: jcassity;364599
Go to the test connector and ground out the tan/light green wire.
lol. Silly EEC-III, test connectors are for REAL engine control systems! That being said, I do have a sort of test connector. It has three wires in it, two are the TAD/TAB solenoids and one is ground or something. I use it to read codes so I don't have to take the coolant overflow reservoir off. (EEC-III has no OBD so I only have some limited KOER capability).
Quote from: jcassity;364599
Perhaps checking the fuse link connections up at the starter relay would also be an option while troubleshooting.
Fusable links (all the ones I could find anyway) are all good. Did a resistance test on them (and all the other wires) while I had the harness out.
Quote from: jcassity;364599
Various sensors and how to test them...........................
This is pretty much all EEC-IV stuff. The EEC-III uses a different reference voltage and so the outputs are different. I'm assuming (for now), due to lack of available information, that the RESISTANCE values of the various sensors (EVP, ECT, ACT) are the same for both EEC-III and IV. It makes sense to me that Ford would just keep using the same sensors until they ran out of their inventory.
On page 1 you said you had green top injectors. ... You have the wrong injectors and throttle body. ... Again, your butterflies on the 3.8L are too small, restrict air flow and therefor may be the one restriction that is causing the surging.
I thought about this too, given the car's weirdness due to the hillbillies. Sometime after that initial post though I found a BOSCH part number list and the injectors are indeed 5.0 CFI application, 5.81 gm/s. My guess is that the color is just very faded and looks green. (Seriously, it looks like the same color as the ones on my 3.8L CFI, but the part numbers are different. The injectors off the 3.8L have the BOSCH number for the 3.8L application and the ones off the 5.0 have the number for the 5.0L application.) I do have a second set of the 5.0L CFI injectors (in a previous post I mentioned a mechanic friend who gave me a throttle body from an 85 5.0L) and I might try those if I can get this bird running in the first place. I know it was running with those injectors, so I have no reason to swap them out yet.
Also, I know I have the right TB because the size of the holes on the intake match the size of the holes on the TB perfectly.
Quote from: jcassity;364597
The 83's had a molded addition to the pass side to groom in the vac operated idle kick down choke thingy.
I have that too and my 85 TB also has the vacuum fast idle kickdown. That system has given me nothing but trouble. It messes up trying to adjust stuff. I'll adjust something only to discover that the cam on the choke was forcing the throttle open way to far during the adjustment. It also has a tendency to get stuck on the 3rd highest cam. I seriously think that the first time I went in to smog the idle rpm was so high because the choke was stuck!
Quote from: jcassity;364597
You do know the fuel pres regulator is adjustable , correct? pop off the freeze plug on top and lookie at whatcha fine!!!
ZOMG! EPIC! ...no, I had no idea, but that's cool.
Quote from: jcassity;364597
to adjust the choke, just wait till the motor is cold, loosen the exterior housing screws, rotate the exterior plastic housing and just when the throttle plates ""JUST START" to open, tighten your screws down in place. thats the same for a carb motor as well.
Okay, but won't that be somewhat dependent on my idle speed setting? So I'll have to adjust that every time I do an idle speed adjustment right?
Yeah. I replaced it a month ago because the old one FELL OFF. The car was running with the new one and the voltages at the switch are good for each mode.
What else can cause this kind of "no run" behavior? Is there some way to eliminate the EEC itself as a suspect?
Only getting a spark when you turn the key on and off means the ignition module is not switching the coil ground circuit on and off. The EEC is supposed to be getting CPS pulses and sending spark out pulses to the ignition module.
I get spark while cranking. But I also get a spark when I turn the key on and off and I was wondering if this was normal. I'm guessing that it is.
I swear, everything I test on it says it should be running, but it just isn't. Everything still gets power, I've tested everything after it shuts itself off and I still have power going where it needs to. There is something that stops working when the ignition switch goes back to "run" after it starts, but I just can't find it.
Not sure if it helps, but this should be a sticky, cause a few things I didn't know and might have helped me as a chased mine down.
Once I get this thing fixed and working right I'll try to organize the experience and my research into some usable form (such as flow charts, wiring diagrams, etc.), I'll post that stuff here when that happens.
Rinse.