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Topic: 3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe (Read 25144 times) previous topic - next topic

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #90 –
Quote from: CougarSE;175019
When your car was burning did people yell "RUN DMC"?


No...they yelled...."That guy's car is on fire! What should we do???"

and...

"Is he home? Maybe we should knock on his door......"
(No one ever knocked)
<---One must always remember to Remain cool, calm and collected when dealing with your fellow man, especially on the Internet....
-DMC24guy
[/SIZE]

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #92 –
Quote from: softtouch;174745
I read through Jeff Korns write up.

He replaces the original alternator output wire with three 10 ga. wires. Two of them go to the same place the original wire went.
These would be protected by the original fuse link.

One of them goes directly to the starter solenoid. This is bad design. This wire should have gone through a fuse or fuse link.

I read the write up and looked at the EVTM to see how it was run originally. The bottom line is that his write-up is unsafe.

The whole point of fuses and fusible links is to protect against a larger failure given a worst case scenario. The worst case scenario for an alternator is a full-output failure mode. 130A of juice is pumping through the system. 10AWG wires can handle 55A. So you get 165A of capacity from 3 of them. Problems arise if the resistance in all three aren't the same. If you do a poor job on the two 2-ft lengths going into the shunt wire, the third 3-ft wire going to the starter solenoid can receive over 55A. This wire is unprotected so you risk fire. Even if you do the job correctly in the first place the hands of time can corrode the other two wires and leave the unprotected third wire the primary current carrier.

If you want to get buttstuff-retentive, the two wires going directly to the shunt wire should be protected independently. If either wire begins to increase in resistance, you can exceed the ampacity of the combined 10AWG feed lines.

The risk of these failure modes are slim, but at the very least, there should be a fuse on the line going to the solenoid.





wrt the original failure. Since is happened while off, it most likely was from a short to ground due to faulty installation. I don't know of any failure mode where massive amounts of current will flow while off, except through  a short to ground.

Quote from: DMC24guy;174414
Yes. I double-checked before I turned everything on. The "I","A", and "S" were all in the correct positions. I used 10 gauge wire for the Output. I used the Volt meter to check the readings of all Three wires before proceeding. I followed the NATO steps (sans the part for the AMP gauge) word for word.


Quote from: DMC24guy;174482
I'm sorry, I meant 10 gauge wires. I used two 10 gauge wires and on either end, I soldered two Metal rings. I did follow those steps word for word.

What exactly did you do. If you didn't follow the AMP gauge portion, you would only use one wire and connect it to the solenoid, soldering two ring connections.

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #93 –
Quote from: softtouch;174910
Looks ok for non ammeter . Not ok for ammeter.


can you fix it where it needs.??? I dont see where you mean and ive looked at the tc wiring.

the prinl of both cars is to also leave the fuse links in place except for the lead up to the solenoid where i have an actual fuse instead.  I'd suggest removing them and redressing the connections before soldering/heat shrink.

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #94 –
I took two foot long sections of 10gauge wire. Then on the "ends" of these wires, I soldered a Ring connector. Meaning I ran TWO wires, with the ends of each spliced together, and then soldered onto Ring connectors from the Alt. Output to the Solenoid.


()<===============>()
Ring      Two Wires          Ring
<---One must always remember to Remain cool, calm and collected when dealing with your fellow man, especially on the Internet....
-DMC24guy
[/SIZE]

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #95 –
Quote from: JeremyB;175020
My EVTMs are in boxes hiding from me. Can someone post the one for the 2.3s alternator wiring?


here you go, im not really sure why someone else couldnt have posted the pics.

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #96 –
Quote from: DMC24guy;175051
I took two foot long sections of 10gauge wire. Then on the "ends" of these wires, I soldered a Ring connector. Meaning I ran TWO wires, with the ends of each spliced together, and then soldered onto Ring connectors from the Alt. Output to the Solenoid.


()<===============>()
Ring      Two Wires          Ring
Ok. So you didn't really follow the instructions wrt the power wires.

If I understand the NATO write-up correctly, the original BK/O power wire isn't used. He doesn't ever mention it...so that is my assumption. If that is the case, you ran were using two 10AWG wires to the solenoid. They have a capacity of 110A.

I think it was almost certainly an installation error.


Quote from: jcassity
here you go, im not really sure why someone else couldnt have posted the pics.
gumby posted them in post #92.

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #97 –
What do you mean??? He doesn't mention using the original output wire because it can't handle the charge. So he says to use two 10 gauge wires and run them from the Stud on the Alternator to the Solenoid on the car. Where did I go wrong? I had several members over at NATO write me in separate emails telling me they bypassed the part involving the Ammeter and ran the two wires like I did...with no problems.

Look, I used the exact same material I was told to in that writeup. I installed the alternator properly, and aside from the Ammeter part, I followed all the steps. I Used a New Regulator Connector specifically for the 3g. No wire was exposed. And the initial startup yielded no problems.

Couldn't this just have been some fluke? Freak accident? Bad Alternator? I know I've rag-tagged a lot of projects in the past, but I saved all the money I could to afford everything that I was told I needed to buy. No half-assing. I just refuse to believe I slipped up somewhere. (Other than possibly having too thin wires...but that's what I was told to use!)
<---One must always remember to Remain cool, calm and collected when dealing with your fellow man, especially on the Internet....
-DMC24guy
[/SIZE]

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #98 –
Quote from: DMC24guy;175051
I took two foot long sections of 10gauge wire. Then on the "ends" of these wires, I soldered a Ring connector. Meaning I ran TWO wires, with the ends of each spliced together, and then soldered onto Ring connectors from the Alt. Output to the Solenoid.


()<===============>()
Ring      Two Wires          Ring


i get what your saying.  you modified your situation by running double the required wires from the alt to solenoid.
You did not run any wiring down in the actual harness (since you had no amp light application)

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #99 –
Quote from: DMC24guy;175059
What do you mean??? He doesn't mention using the original output wire because it can't handle the charge. So he says to use two 10 gauge wires and run them from the Stud on the Alternator to the Solenoid on the car. Where did I go wrong? I had several members over at NATO write me in separate emails telling me they bypassed the part involving the Ammeter and ran the two wires like I did...with no problems.
The write-up is saying to run one wire from the alternator to the solenoid. The other two wires run from the alternator to each side of the yellow wire by the ammeter.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/gmby23/4bcdf08f.jpg

Looking at the EVTM.
Another 10AWG wire should be run into node S262
Another 10AWG wire should be run into node S261

Running two wires like you did, while unsafe, would not instantly cause the wiring to burst into flames.

Honestly, you should have just run a fused 4AWG wire from the alternator to the solenoid. The ammeter is what causes all the funny business.

I have 95A 3Gs on both of my cars and still use the factory 10AWG wire. I have a MN12 fan too, yet have had no problems. Is it optimal? No. But I am taking the risk. The only real risk is if the 20+ year old fusible link doesn't work. The wiring is still protected. Nevertheless, I am going to upgrade to fused 4AWG wiring.

I can have a 4000A 3G alternator, but if my load never goes over 50A and I have a properly fused 10AWG wire, I'm good to go safety wise.

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #100 –
either way ,nothing explains his fire or the cause.  I still cant believe the rest of the cruel world never mentioned a fuse in line with the alt output,, what are they thinking anyway?  Ill bet you yourself thought about this as you did the install. 

If your gut gives you a feeling, its time to stop.

nevermind all that cause you've heard plenty of it..... i cant figure out what happend from my comfy seat in gap mills west virginia.  However,, im sure if i were up front and personal with the car, or if you would post pics of the burn areas,, the alt like you said and mentioned is likely the cause.


I woudl also like to throw in a new twist,,,, something that happened to one of my customers just today ,,
Louisville kentucky has a dc power plant and some batteries exploded due to a customer not calling CTAC when he got a gut feeling he was wiring something hosed up.

What are the odds that your battery went into thermal runaway.  If the amperage output of the alt was just too great for the float voltage of the batt, or perhaps the cells were low on fluid, do you think this might answer or add light on this issue?

So,,, question,,,, whats the history on your battery?  whats the date tag say?  whats the CA adn the CCA rating as well as group number?

The battery going into thermal runaway would be the only thing that could be a likely cause of this fire.

Take your ohm meter and see if the starter solenoid is reading resistance from the batt post and the starter post with nothing hooked up to it.
also,, did anyone say the car was cranking by itself?

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #101 –
Quote from: JeremyB;175062

Looking at the EVTM.
Another 10AWG wire should be run into node S262
Another 10AWG wire should be run into node S261


The way I read it, he runs the two wires both to the S262 end of the meter shunt.

What happened to the original alternator output wire? Taped it up. Cut it off and taped it up. Or what.

Did you leave the original green and yellow wires on the solenoid?

Did you look at the voltage on the battery after you started it up?

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #102 –
Quote from: softtouch;175170
The way I read it, he runs the two wires both to the S262 end of the meter shunt.
[COLOR="Blue"]He did not do this part at all per his previous posts[/COLOR]
What happened to the original alternator output wire? Taped it up. Cut it off and taped it up. Or what.
[COLOR="blue"]He installed two of the original blk/org wires from the output of the alt to the solenoid instead of the single one pointed out by his ref site.  good call if you ask me but sure wish there had been a fuse.[/COLOR]

Did you leave the original green and yellow wires on the solenoid?

Did you look at the voltage on the battery after you started it up?
[COLOR="Blue"]He said he did way earlier so i didnt look beyond that either.[/COLOR]


see edits

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #103 –
Quote from: softtouch;175170
The way I read it, he runs the two wires both to the S262 end of the meter shunt.

After reading it a few more times, I agree.

3G Installation Failure: The Death of a Turbo Coupe

Reply #104 –
Quote from: softtouch;175170
The way I read it, he runs the two wires both to the S262 end of the meter shunt.

What happened to the original alternator output wire? Taped it up. Cut it off and taped it up. Or what.

Did you leave the original green and yellow wires on the solenoid?

Did you look at the voltage on the battery after you started it up?


but back to why the fire?

the points of wiring to the meter shunt is fine to point out but it was never wired in the first place.
ive removed that section from the EVTM and stared at it a log time ignoring the meter wiring and i dont see that to be the cause.

im thinking more along the lines of the battery but he needs to come back with a reply on my questions i asked.

OR.... did i miss something and you two are on to something?