is there any other company besides CHE, that makes them for 87-88 t-birds?
is there enough adjustment to get the aftermarket mustang arms to work?
im looking for some adjustable lowers, that allows you to lower the rear.
CHE is it for the rear control arms. Allegedly there's a GM car that has uppers that will work, but I can't recall which.
Fordpartsnetwork (http://"http://www.fordpartsnetwork.com") appears to sell UCAs.
http://www.parts.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getLocator&siteid=318&chapter=DN2FD0&appSectionid=24&groupid=61991&make=10&model=Thunderbird&year=1987&catalogid=1
Maximum Motorsports makes LCAs (http://"http://www.maximummotorsports.com/rlca.asp") for our cars.
MM adjustable LCAs = $399.95
CHE adjustable LCAs = $229.95
MM has lowers, but they are expensive!
I know what GM car you're talking about....if I had a Jeg's catalog I could tell you which one it is, but I can't remember off the top of my head and can't find a jeg's catalog laying around.
Chevelle!
GM a-bodies
Chevelle???? Gonna go jack the ones off my dads 70 SS! Nah thats mean for such a nice car.
Maximum Motorsports makes the best LCA's for T-Birds period. They aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for. You couldn't pay me to install anybody else's on my car.
Mr. Hawk if I had your car I wouldn't either. :D MM is the only LCA I've seen that let's you lower. I think Global West might have some, but I don't recall.
I really like the CHE adjustable arms I have. Too bad you couldn't find a shorter spring and stick it in there when you install the adjustable arms - then you could dial it in.
I like the MM's primarily because they are the ONLY company that does the bushings correctly for use with a Fox Ford 4 link setup. I've covered the topic too many times on this forum as to why bushing choice is important for cars that do something other than go in a straight line, so I won't get into writing that novel again (should come up in a search I think but it may not as I believe the last time I wrote on the subject was back on the old EzBoard based forum) MM covers the subject quite well on their own site though.
No offence to supporters of other brands of LCA's for our cars, but if you like to go around corners or drive your car on the street in directions other than straight you would be better off keeping stone stock LCA's on the car.
:flame:
I, for one, am quite familiar with the post you are talking about. It's the reason I held back from buying any of the typical aftermarket control arms - too firm urethane bushings that do not allow side-side movement and eventually damage the torque boxes - thanks :D Below is my thinking process prior to purchasing control arms:
Maximum Motorsports
I would have bought the MM arms, but for the following reasons I decided to look elsewhere:
1. The center harder section is rectangular and has been known to tear due to the deflection that they are trying to preserve. Their seemed to be several folks who complained about the bushings tearing.
(http://www.maximummotorsports.com/images/large/RLCAUrethane.jpg)
2. The axle end uses a spherical bushing which may provide good side movement but it also will introduce more NVH which I can live without.
3. $400 is a high price to pay for a set of adjustable lowers - too high for most folks IMHO.
4. I bought full-length subframes from MM (for a pretty penny I might add) which they SAID would fit the Cougar fine, but which didn't fit when I got them. They offered NOTHING more than an appology when I called & said they didn't fit properly - ****ing jerks. Wouldn't even give me a discount toward LCA's as compensation for me having to bash the Christ out of them with a 10 lb sledgehammer for an hour each to get them to fit :flame: **** MM :mad: .
CHE
The CHE is a compromise using a delrin liner as a buffer between the mounting axle bushing and the polyurethane. I was leary about their material hardness and emailed Chuck who forwarded the following information (now on the website) to alleviate my fears:
Steel Crush Sleeve:
The crush sleeve not only maintains a fixed mounting point on the vehicle, but also acts as a smooth bearing race for the Delrin.
Delrin Bearing:
Delrin is an Acetyl Nylon material with low friction properties. The Delrin Bearing is designed to rotate around the crush sleeve providing smooth, low friction, squeak free operation.
Polyurethane Bushing:
The polyurethane bushing is designed to absorb shock and allows the axle to move through its complex range of motion without harsh binding or torque box damage. Because the poly bushings remain fixed without rotating, there are no annoying squeaks. We carefully select the proper hardness to provide maximum performance and prevent binding and damage.
Our Polyurethane bushings are engineered and manufactured specifically for our products ensuring optimal performance for any driving or racing style.
(http://www.cheperformance.com/Tech/CHE_Bushings_Small.jpg)
At $229 - group discount it was certainly worth taking a chance on. I am more than pleased with the compromise in hardness of the polyurethane - they "feel" right on my car on the curves & at the racetrack. So far, so good.
J&M Performance
I also tried to get a custom Cougar/T-Bird buy on arms from J&M Performance that uses a ball & socket type of design similar to MM but with the advantage of being spherical so the bushing will not tear like the MM supposedly do. (http://www.hotpart.com/images/products/20050224020624_big.jpg)
Unfortunately, I could not get enough interest in this custom length even though I posted here, on Cougarnuts, NATO, TurboFord etc... They make a nice adjustable design too (http://www.hotpart.com/images/products/20040102012304_big.jpg)
These are $268 with spherical poly on both ends, $298 with teflon lined spherical on axle side & poly spherical on chassis side. Very similar to MM for $100 less. I can't vouch for them on any car I know of however.
Y'all DO know that you can use Mustang rear LCA's on your car...right? They are 3/4" shorter in length, meaning they will rotate the top of the rear end slightly upward. But that's a good thing because it helps with the pinion angle. Your wheelbase would be a bit shorter as well. This upsets virtually nothing as far as tire wear, wheel fitment, etc. I have not seen or heard any arguments as to why one shouldn't use them on a T-Bird/Cougar platform, at least in aftermarket form. The uppers still have to be specific to our cars, or from a GM A-Body (1968-72 Chevelle). But the lowers...no known issues. I ran Saleen/Racecraft Mustang lowers on the convertible for about 7 years with no problems. The CHE arms definitely "feel" better on the car though, no doubt due to the bushings.
If money is no object...MM lowers seem to be great for those that have them. If money is an object...and for virtually everyone that views this board, it is...there is no better overall value than what CHE is offering for street cars, at least that I've found yet.
Those ball-and-socket bushings are very intriguing though...interesting.
What we don't have here is a lot of data concerning either the MM or the CHE arms when used at the track on a T-Bird/Cougar platform. Ditto for road courses. I feel if we're going to be fair to either company, we need this feedback. We already know what MM does with Mustangs and road courses because of their own information in magazines and on their website. But how well do those bushings hold up afterward? What about the occasional autocrosser or weekend warrior? What do they have to say in their own non-sponsored words? I find it difficult to give advice to people when there are too many unknowns. And what I'm talking about here should be the car owners' feedback, not the company's feedback. Word on the street, in other words. Anything?
I think the difference is more like 5/8" if I remember correctly. I did the calculations WRT pinion angle and I didn't like the way it came out. The angle would have been close to zero with Mustang arms and I don't like the idea of the pinion pointing at the driveshaft - not good for U-joint wear and might have vibration issues as well.
The only tearing complaints that I have heard about were from drag racers who used their std. arms.
Given the similarities between the Mustang and Tbird/Cougar suspension, I think the feedback from MM Mustang products is directly applicable to the Tbird/Cougar. If you want feedback concerning the MM Mustang LCAs, go to corner-carvers.com. They are considered the best arms bar none. There are many, many people who had the MM arms on for years for DD, autocross, OT events, and amateur racing.
I read of several tearing issues with weekend warriors - and our cars typically weigh 400-700 more pounds than a typical race oriented Mustang. I will say that they are the best design out there - but you pay dearly for that quality.
I would also tend to agree that with the extra heft of the Cougar/T-Bird chassis, especially the considerable weight after the axle along with a larger fuel tank, will greatly skew performance figures compared to a Mustang using the same product. With our cars, we have to be even more concerned about wear and tear. The weight distribution of the car has everything to do with everything.
I know you are always over at corner-carvers.com, Jeremy, and you definitely do your homework, and keep us up-to-date with info that may help us. Your opinions are very valuable. But my point is, I think those that have these products in real-world situations on our own chassis are going to provide the most realistic assessment for those wanting to purchase. We have two good opinions in this thread, one for each product, and that's great. We just have a huge need for more feedback, period.
Agreed. Thank God for the popularity of the Mustang, but it only get's us about 2/3 of the way to nirvana :rollin:
You rang?!?! :D , On a more serious note, how about making this a sticky, seems worthy enough of it to me :dunno: .
Done.
Well, as far as feedback goes...sometime this summer I'm planning on throwing a set of CHE rear arms into my car, along with some bolt-on torque box reinforcements, so I could provide some feedback as to how they feel on the street if anyone wanted that :dunno: There are no tracks around here for me to go to.
BTW- On the subject of control arms, thought I might mention in case anyone is interested- there's a guy on ebay that has bolt-in upper & lower torque box reinforcements, VERY similar to the "battle boxes" that I've seen before (I can't remember who makes them), and he'll sell you a complete set of uppers & lowers for a very good price. I just bought the set for $97 shipped. The seller is dawnw111, search on ebay and you'll see em...e-mail the guy and he'll set you up a package deal like he did for me.
Hey, thanks for the tip on the torque box reinforcements - I need to get something to keep me from tearing out the rear end at the track.
Does anyone have any suggestions on front control arms? I was looking t the ones from FRPP.
Would these (http://"http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=6313") work?
Or would I have to use these (http://"http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=201")?
This is assuming that either of those work. I don't see how the Cobra ones wouldn't work if the other ones do since the second ones upgrade the 79-93 to 96+.
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12700&highlight=m-3075-a
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6710&highlight=hydro-bushing
the 3075D is the 03 cobra arm. they will work. they are clearanced for wider rims and are pretty sweet. if your interested in them and can hold off awhile, i have brand new ones here. they may be too long for my tubular k member so ill need too sell them off for the shorter fox stang arms....ill cut ya some sort of deal if you are interested...
This one is pretty old but I thought I would post up some hopefully useful information.
Griggs Racing sells lower control arms for the rear of our cars and I can say that they are nice pieces as the '83 has a set. The ones I have are for coil over cars but that does solve the issue of wanting to adjust the rear ride height. The part number for those using coil overs is MCA 4500 N and the part number for those running conventional coil springs is MCA 4500 S. These are for a Fox Mustang but they are adjustable and work on our cars just fine. Griggs does not make an upper control arm as they want you to run a torque arm in conjunction with a Watts link or panhard bar.
http://www.griggsracing.com
Global West sells both the lower control arms and the upper control arms for our cars. The lower is T-Bird/Cougar specific and the upper is for a GM A-Body more specifically the 68-72. I talked to Doug at GWS and they have a specific part number for the T-Bird UCA which is TBF-88. The LCA is part number TBF-2. They also have full length subframe connectors which I have on both of my cars and I will say they are awesome! Easy to install and work like a champ. The part number for the subframe connectors is 918 and I would also suggest getting the seat supports (part number 920) which are the same for the Fox Mustang. I have a set of the TBF-88's but they are not installed to date...busy time of year in the pipeline world.
http://www.globalwest.net
My Mustang is a full Maximum Motorsports car (K-member, front lower control arms, CC plates, front coil overs, strut tower brace, torque arm, rear LCA's, rear coil overs, panhard bar) and I can say they build some of the best parts out there.
http://www.maximummotorsports.com
For those of you experiencing torque box issues I would have to say that if you did not fully weld them out then I am not surprised. I had a buddy MIG weld the torque boxes and he also welded up the UCA mount points as well. I have had zero issues on both cars. The T-Bird had South Side Lift bars and ET Streets on it for about five years and if you know anything about the SSLB's they are absolutely one of the most punishing LCA's on torque boxes. I do remember an article in MM&FF on welding out the torque boxes and it had some goofy title like "Torque Box Rebop" or something uncool like that but it was a really good article. I may have that at the house as well so I will post back if I have it available for anyone who would like a copy.
With all of that said the GWS and Griggs parts are more expensive the the CHE's. I have heard nothing but good things on this board about CHE both in parts and customer service so that in itself is fantastic. I just wanted to post up what I have found and give some options for those that want to take it a step further in performance.
Darren
i have heard of people using lowers from fox body stangs but they are a smige longer??? are the uppers from the bird longer or shorter than fox/stang????
The Fox body Mustang LCA's are actually shorter by about 3/8". The Mustang UCA's are 1-1/8" shorter which is quite a bit more than the LCA's.
I used the South Side LCA's on my 83 for a Mustang but they come with an additional bracket that mounts to the rear end so I could make up the difference there and not change the wheel base.
Darren
Thanx for the info Aerocoupe i think i will buy a set of subframe connectors from global west
seems to be a fine product
They are really nice pieces. They even provide the E-brake bracket on them. Its been 12 years since I installed mine but I believe when you install the full length subframes you have to remove the factory E-brake bracket or something like that. Anyhow, really nice and they tuck up tight against the floor board as they do not install below the existing subrames.
Darren
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/winkysrides/car/100_1378.jpg)
che made me these