Hello All,
As noted I bought a 88 Turbo Coupe for an excellent price. It needs work and have been fooling around with the 2.3 (auto). Good chance its worn out and possibly a cracked blocked. I bought the car anyways to do a 351C conversion. I went ahead and ordered a AJE Fox cross-member since Chuck said he no longer makes the conversion mounts. I am going to stay with factory suspension parts. When I drove the car I know steering had lots of play and a pen 15ed wheel when going straight. Possibly the rack is bad (I know the rag joint is toast as well which I have no clue where to find one). Can I get some recommendations as a good direction to go and what lower arms to go with? I have read about the SN95 rack swap which looks very interesting. When I looked up the parts though the 1994 Mustang model has a different rack number from say a 1996 (even though both are considered SN95). Should I just keep the same kind of rack that comes in my car and switch to Fox uppers and lowers? This will be a weekend warrior car and not a daily. I also looked at maybe a manual rack swap, but to me that looks like going backwards on a street car.
Thanks for any help!
Upon more reading it looks like the way to go would be to get the MMST-11 joint from Maximum Motorsports and keep my stock rack. But if the rack is already bad, is it recommended to do the SN95 and the MMST-13 instead? Trying to keep the project as cheap as possible, but at the same time want it to drive the best it can. Since I am going to have to change parts out I want to go ahead and do it all once. Thanks
Lol...2.3t automatic......well that explains your 5psi boost in your other post. Your ECU basically locks boost down until you put the switch in premium mode....then you get more.
Sorry....back on track.....351C? Or did you mean 351W? You planning a carb or EFI? Either way you have alot of work ahead of you! Your going to need a new custom drive shaft, a double hump tranny cross member to accommodate dual exhaust and you may want to start looking at doing a Master cylinder/Vac Booster swap while your in there since you will likely loose alot of the function from the existing system.
I don't know anything about the sn95 rack but you can use the fox mustang rack with T-bird rod ends. Simple bolt on swap. You can't go wrong with MM stuff but when did the rag joint.....I got it in the HELP section of my local parts store. It was so long ago but I remember needing to mod it a bit.
John
LOL I swear John.....you are about the most helpful person on here. Thanks! Ahhhh okay yeah good point as I know that switch was on the regular setting. I didn't even think about that. The reason why I made sure it was on the regular setting was because of the old gas in the tank. I didn't want to risk anything, but dumped in 5 gallons of fresh 93 mixed in with whatever 1/4 was left in it. I have a major coolant leak going on and I am afraid it could be the block. I could not find where it was coming from, but did not see any wet hoses. I did see a leak in the front and that looks like water pump, but it has 2 spots where coolant is leaking and I mean big leaks.
Yeah I have a 351C and most of the parts to it, but honestly I am looking into the 460 swap now as well. I know where 3 Lincolns that have 460s with C6s. Not sure the C6 would fit though without modification. I see they make an adapter for an AOD to Big Block and that may be the best option as I can get an AOD for free....then I can keep the 3.73 gear. Then again if you go big block then may as well keep the C6 and get some highway gears to match. Just not sure the C6 would fit good without cutting and welding (which I can cut, but suck at welding). Funny as yes I do have a 5.0 Mustang booster and a SVO Master Cylinder from the write up I saw on NATO ready to go in one day. The bad is I talked to Jack from MM and he basically said I did not want to use the SVO Master. So here I am LOL :)
That is what I find odd about the rag joints. Some say the Mustang and Bird had the same ones, yet you can get them for a Mustang though not for a Bird. I snagged a Cobra rack on Ebay for very cheap out of a 2003, so I am gonna do the swap thing. That coupler is expensive from MM, but it seems to be the cats meow from the comments I read. Now to figure out what arms I will need to use to make this all play together nicely. haha Eventually I would like to convert to 5 lug, but not at that point yet.
No problem.....there's many helpful members on here, probably not checking in much during winter. I tend to pop in during work killing some time......and it sucks that it's too cold up here to spend much time in the garage.....so I will help others if I'm able. Take a good look on the passenger side for leaks. There is a tiny line from turbo to block.....it gets trashed from the heat! Also follow the hard lines behind the head all the way to the oil cooler/filter assembly. The hard lines tend to rot.
I wouldn't use the booster you have unless it's a cobra booster. I used a GT booster for a while until it ped out. Brakes needed alot effort and was difficult to lock up. I am using the sn95 master with cobra booster and it works a whole lot better now.
If your using a fox mustang K.....use fox mustang arms otherwise the wheels stick out too far. I tried both T-bird and Mustang and much happier with the mustang arms. If I ever go 5 lug I am certain the wheels won't stick way out. I would think if you went with a modified Sn95 K you might be able to use the longer arms.
Going Big Block.....I hope you've considered hood clearance! Ive read about guys going 460 and shimming the K-member down to keep the stock hood so you have to think about where things will sit including the steering shaft. I opted for an EFI 5.0 Turbo set up to keep things simple and get all the grunt the block handle with little modification and stock like street manners. It's a sleeper.....it's got that awesome clear coat peel, until recently keep the snowflakes on it and I even managed to tuck my 3" tail pipes way up like the automatic 2.3t single with only the tip of a blacked out turn down visible. This arrangement also seems to give a deeper throatier sound making people wonder WTF.
Whatever you decide.....if the body is in good shape....you will enjoy the car when it's done.....you definitely need patience to complete the conversion!
John
So I thought all the TC's already have the double hump cross member?
Rack and pinion...I would suggest that you dump the over boosted Fox stuff and move over to the SN95 rack. The T bar in the rack is what causes the Fox racks to be so easy to turn. This is not a good thing at high speeds as it can result in an over correction. Me personally I like a little stiffer steering to generate feedback. To properly install a SN95 rack in your Bird use one from a 94-98 V8 car, the stock Fox pump, stock Fox high pressure and low pressure lines, new Teflon seals on the lines (help section), and the Maximum Motorsports hybrid steering shaft (MMST-13) for this conversion. Here is the one issue with this swap, the SN95 rack will have metric threaded inner tie rods while the outer tie rods on a Fox car are SAE. You can buy the SN95 outers and cut the inners down so they fit right or buy the bump steer kit from MM (MMTR-4) but you will still need to cut the inners down to make it all work. Another option is to use the Fox inners off of your existing rack if they are in good shape and then use Fox outers. This is all assuming you will use the Fox LCA's up front.
Brakes...If you are going to run the Fox 11" brakes up front and the TC discs in the rear then you can use a Fox booster and an 85 Lincoln Town Car MC as it has a 1" bore. You should be able to find the Town Car MC in aluminum so it looks nicer than the old school iron one. Do not run the SVO calipers or the SVO MC...been there done that and what a waste of time and money. Another option that has been pointed out is to run the 93 Mustang Cobra booster which is the same as the 94-95 GT booster however it has the same bolt pattern to the firewall as the Fox unit so you do not have to slot the holes. I have installed a few and the Cobra unit is much easier but some cars will require some relief of the back side of the driver shock tower so it will slide home. If you run this booster then you can use either the 93 Cobra MC (1" bore) , the 94-95 V8 MC (15/16" bore), or 94-98 V6 MC (15/16" bore) as they will all work well with the stock Fox brake setup or with the SN95 brakes should you ever decide to convert. I am pretty sure I have the bore sizes correct but the key here is to get as close to 1"as you can so even a 1 1/16" will work.
I don't know about "all" but the 87-88 automatics didn't. Ok rephrase that to my 87 auto didn't.
John
Yeah I am still on the fence on the 351C or 460. I finally picked up my block after 3 years of sitting at a machine shop (he is still searching for my new pistons and stock rods he misplaced). It was going to go in to my 70 Sportsroof Mustang restoration, but I sold it. Hence why I bought the Tbird going in to it thinking I would throw the 351C in. I have almost all the parts, just need the swap headers. The bad thing is the engine guy said someone poorly honed the block already to .030 over and would need to go .040. From what I read some builders recommend max of .030 for the thin walled 351. So yes I am a little concerned about that, but I could find another block. The other issue is the heads I have are the DOAE heads which are supposed to be at least closed chamber and not open 4V heads. Sure they have huge ports, but from what I am reading it will be a dog on the street unless I get a stroker kit (definitely not good for the .040 overbore). The positive of course is the AOD will bolt right on to the 351. Now the 460 is a good starting point, but I know it will be nose heavy. I like the idea of a stoplight monster. The bad is I found out the local person with the 70's Tbird 460 wants $1000 (they pull it) for the engine with all the brackets (the positive is it does already run). To me that price is a bit insane, but if it's old enough it may have some good heads on it already. Hoping to hear soon what year it is. The bad of course for the 460 is transmission options and height issues just like you mentioned John. Also it will take probably extra work to get it to fit, but I am not too afraid of that. My other "almost finished" project car is a Miata with a 302 in it. :) So again no need for a special handling car when I got that little beast. LOL
So yeah I have the Cobra rack on the way as I definitely will be using that. I will try to do the Fox inner swap out and then using Fox Arms like you both said. Now can I use my current uppers with the Fox lowers or do I need both? I wanted to try and use the 5.0 Fox Booster because I read it was the smallest. So that may do best for space. I guess that means I will definitely be getting another master then. I will check out those Lincoln options. I read the info in the NATO Tech about that SVO swap, but they really should take that down. I was worried it was old info and people have found better ideas. :)
The 93 cobra or sn95 booster are bigger but really don't impose a problem. Mine slipped in easily by clearencing one of holes in the firewall......without smashing the strut tower. As noted the sn95 booster is a different bolt pattern but is otherwise the same as the 93 cobra.
You have no uppers in the front..... you might want to read up on spring swaps for these cars.....its the same as mustangs .... them you will fully understand the hazards in removing the control arms. It's really not as bad as you might read as long as the control arm is supported well and spring compression is relaxed slowly. I've never had much luck with spring compressors on these cars so I don't even try to use one anymore.
John
I thought I was crazy when I questioned the lack of upper arm. I thought to myself no way this car comes without an upper. Thanks for clearing that up John as I have not the pleasure of taking the suspension down yet :) So it sounds like everything is just sandwiched between the coil spring mount and the lower a-arm (which I did remember to get the spring perches for the AJE haha). I did just now go online and see it looks like the upper spindle bolts to the strut. Well my local Ford mechanic guru buddy keeps pushing me to go Cleveland. He said don't worry about the block as he has a spare ready to go. He keeps telling me you don't want to go with a big block (such a Debbie Downer that has a 428CJ he built sitting in his garage LOL). I guess for the vision of cheaperness (not a real word), I should stay with the Cleveland. I can sell the 2.3 to help cover the machining costs. Evidently the local racers would like to get their hands on that 2.3. I was told I wont have any issue selling it for the class they run. Though I need to find that leak as I wouldn't want to sell someone a cracked block. Unless they only want it for what I am assuming is the forged internals (if they are forged? Not sure). Maybe we can slap a turbo or 2 on that 351C? :)
Oh and I am sending back the 5.0 booster and SVO master. Will probably get the 93 Cobra goodies. :)
Let me throw this into the mix. I saw these wheels and I really like them along with the price. I know we can just swap the front rotors on our TCs to make them 5 lug, but I had planned on doing the Mazda rotors in the rear with spacers to fit (to keep the 3.73 rear). Would these wheels fit or is that a no go? Guess that will pin point what I would need to do in the front for fitment. Thanks! https://www.ebay.com/itm/17x10-5-17x9-Rims-Fit-Ford-Mustang-Cobra-R-Gunmetal-w-Machd-Lip-Wheel-SET/282665697771?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
Nope. The hat on the Mark II rotors will not allow wheels like these to mount up. You can machine the wheels but that is sketchy at best. Do a Google search on mustang five lug conversion with Mark VII rotors and you should be able to find the small list of wheels you can use.
The SN95 conversion allows for a much larger selection of wheels. Yet another reason to ditch the py Fox brakes.
Well that really sucks. So it looks like I need to go and grab some spindles and brakes from a 94-95? I think our Pull A Part has one, but I am sure V6. Probably the same either way. I did find these for a great price...it says 95, but I swear from what I saw online they are actually 96+ https://greensboro.craigslist.org/pts/d/1995-mustang-5-lug-spindles/6484673773.html
So to recap, 2002 Cobra Rack....Fox Inner and Outer.....Fox Lower Arm.....swap ball joint for SN95 spindle and brakes (or just use an SN95 LCA?)....shock and springs I can stay with the TC parts? I called AJE and they said their k member is setup to be able to use stock parts. They even said I could try to use my stock TC lowers, but depends on wheel choice of course. Thanks!
Well we have 7 cars that are all 3.8s from 1998-2003 at our local yard for pickin.
So the ones in that Craig's list are 96+ spindles. The visual difference are here:
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/tech_front_susp_spindle_identification.aspx
Here are the differences between the two series of spindles:
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/tech_front_susp_7993to9604_spindle.aspx
Again, if you go the SN95 route get the '99 calipers from a V6 or GT as they are dual piston and provide much better braking. You will have to grind (really buff) the mounting "ears" on the 94-98 spindles to get them to fit but its well worth it.
Good write up on it here:
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/2009.shtml
You will have to run the Fox LCA with a Fox Mustang k-member. With that just get the SN95 ball joints in the LCA's if you have not ordered them already. If you already have the Fox LCA's then you will need approximately 0.330" of spacer between the top of the spindle and the castle nut so that the castle nut engages the Fox ball joint at a point you can use a cotter pin.
Here is the issue with the rear TC brakes. The calipers are larger in bore diameter than the SN95 rear brakes and if used in conjunction with the SN95 front brakes it will cause a brake bias issue. Most can dial this out with a manual proportioning valve but the best thing to do is just swipe from the axles out of the rear end on a V6 SN95 car and install that in your TC 8.8 housing. This will ensure that with the Cobra booster, 15/16 - 1" - 1 1/16" bore MC, a manual proportioning valves, and good brake pads the car will stop like a beast.
That is some excellent info. Thanks Aero! Okay so I can run out to the Pull A Part and snag some brake calipers as you said from 99+. I found a set of spindles from a 94 for $45 each at a junk yard (he has a few cars there he said). The reason why I am thinking I need to stay 94-95 is because of what MM said about the 96 dropping the rack down an inch, yet AJE let me know the 96+ were better spindles and easier to get (I guess you could use them if you bought their 1" rack drop kit for their K member. That to me would indicate lots of bumpsteer per MM's page if you dont drop the rack. I can also grab the rear axles out of one of those cars one day at the Pull A Part. Any certain year of V6 or any SN95 should work? Thanks!
So the rear axles out of a v6 SN95 would be from a 94-98 as this keeps the TC 8.8 the same width (within a 1/16" or 1/8" per side) of the stock width. Just to clarify, the 8.8 housing in the 87-88 TC's is the same 8.8 housing that is in the 87-93 V8 Fox Mustang. The 8.8 rear that is in the 93 Cobra is simply a 87-88 TC rear.
If you are going to use an aftermarket k-member they are typically setup for the 96+ spindles due to the better geometry. If AJE says use them then use them.
If you are going to run the '99+ calipers remember that MM has the SS braided lines that will hook straight up to our cars existing hard lines. The '94 and up calipers use banjo fittings where the 93 and down Fox cars have pipe threads. If you want to run stock SN95 rubber lines up front you might need a brake line adapter to make it work. I did not use rubber lines so I cannot for the life of me remember the part number for the adapters. Search it on here and one of the guys will have used it.
That’s where the confusion is. Lol AJE said you can use the stock Fox Parts, but they just changed it a little to help with heavy braking and nose dive how they did the mounting. Though you go on MM’s site and they say if you are using a stock or stock positioned suspension k member then do not use the 96+ arms. :) It’s all a toss up. May end up just getting both and seeing which fits better. From the prices on the 94-95 spindles I saw on EBay, should be able to get my money back out of them if I have to sell.
- Decision must be made between using the 1994-95 spindle or the 1996-04 spindle. The best choice depends on whether a stock K-member or a Maximum Motorsports K-member is used.
- Do not install a 1996-04 spindle on a 1979-93 Mustang fitted with a stock-geometry k-member! Doing so will significantly increase bumpsteer because...
- The steering arm on the 1996-04 spindle is about 1.02" (26mm) lower (relative to the rest of the spindle) than the steering arm of any 1979-95 spindle.
- The lower steering arm forces the outer tie-rod end to a lower position.
- That new position is far too low for the steering rack location of any 1979-93 Mustang, and radically changes the steering geometry.
- It is impossible to correct the geometry with a bumpsteer kit because the outer tie-rod end needs to be raised so much that it would have to occupy the same physical space as the steering arm.
- Stock Fox chassis k-member, or an aftermarket k-member that retains the stock front control arm pivot point vertical location, should use a 1994-95 spindle. Doing so will prevent insurmountable bumpsteer problems.
I’m pretty well read on the SN95 spindles. I ran the 96+ spindles on my stock k-member car but I also ran a MM taper style bump steer kit. When I installed the MM k-member I upgraded to the through bolt desing bump steer kit so I could get more aggressive with the setup and get the car low.
I would talk with AJE and ask them which one to run based on their k-member geometry with Fox LCA’s. They should know the answer being they designed and built it.
Ironically I just went out and saw this posted on another website. Hopefully the 2012 k member is the same as the new one. It should be since it as well is “universal”:
“Ok, I just got off the phone with AJE, and since their k-member is a universal one, the rack location has already been dropped to allow use of 96+ spindles. So anyone else out there that is running an AJE that was wondering the same thing, here ya go!”
Good News! On my lunch I was able to run up to the Pull A Part and pull the axles, backing plates, brackets, calipers and the special u-bolt bracket setup on one of the 98 V6 Mustangs. With coupon I got everything for $109 :D Now the only bad is the brake lines were gimped up and the banjo bolts were stuck. I didn't have enough time to fight with them so I am hoping I can buy new. Also got a junkyard pulling from a 2001 Mustang GT the spindles and calipers for $100. Figure I will try the 2001 setup first and hope for the best. :)
I think the '01 spindles will be fine. If I remember correctly you can get a good seal kit or what they call a repair kit for the front calipers and the rear calipers for $5 or so and just replace the rubber parts on the calipers yourself as long as the pistons are in good shape. I only say this because parts that sit typically will not work or leak or work for a short period of time. Another option would be to replace the front calipers with reman units and rebuild the rear calipers. Now if you want to go all out then you can get new front calipers for around $32 each and the rears for $41 each at the local parts stores if they will match Rock Auto.
A few choices but I would not use the calipers out of the salvage yard as is. Too much risk here not only to you but potentially someone else and their car.
Totally agree Aero. I will at least change the rubber parts out. The rear calipers looked good. When I get the 2001 Parts I will find out about that. The junkyard guy told me the V6 had a single piston and the GT had the dual piston brakes. So I made sure to get them from a GT. The Mach 1 rack came in and it looks to be in excellent shape. Surprised they left the inner and outer tie rods on. I may see about just cutting those down to size. Getting stock Fox control arms for $25 and will be putting in the SN95 ball joints with Prothane bushings. Hopefully this will all work together. One other thing though, planning to my stock TC coil springs....wonder which strut will be best? Sn95 maybe?
Guy at the yard needs to check his part numbers. ‘99 V6 or GT have the same brakes all the way around the car. Look up the calipers online and they are the same.
Are you going run a tubular Fox AJE LCA or a stock stamped Fox LCA?
Okay, reread your post and your are going to run the stock Fox LCA. I have run them with urethane bushings and I tore the front end back down and replaced them with stock style rubber bushings. The ride was so harsh it was like every crack in the road felt like a small speed bump. I think some of the guys here have had similar experiences.
If you are going to lower the car more than two inches use Fox struts. If stock ride height or a mild drop (less than two inches) then SN95.
I have poly in mine..... they were already installed when I got the control arms so I left them in there. I don't find it that bad in my 87. If/when I need to replace them I will likely go back to rubber.
I used the fox struts with front TC springs. I can't remember the wheel gap with the 2.3 but with stock front springs it's going to drop. Mine has about 1.5" wheel to fender gap with the Turbo EFI 5.0 and stock size tires, I imagine the big block will drop about the same.
Something else to consider...... speaking from experience...... When you swap in the v8, the car will have a pretty good rake front to back with rear TC springs. Traction is also going to suck..... great for doing burnouts and maybe drifting LOL. I ended up installing rear springs from an 03 along with adjustable spring perch lower control arms and Chuck's shock adaptor brackets so I could level out the car and run fox mustang shocks out back. The car definitely hooks much better! I think FastED has a set up for sale right now. I would grab them if I were you.....I don't think Chuck is making them anymore.
More info for the v8 swap.... whatever transmission you decide on you may need to re-think the Speedo drive/driven gear combo relative to tire size. There aren't a whole lot of tires to choose from in a 17" that will fill in the wells. I'm not a low profile guy so I don't run the tiny mustang sidewalls on my 17's You may want to consider going to an 18" wheel if your taste is anything like mine. Lastly you will need to do a minor electrical tweak to the tach otherwise it will read double. Eric has a write up on CoolCats if your interested.
John
X2 on rough riding poly. If it's a track car only, then yes. If you live in the country like I do, it's going to be horrible and you won't like it.
I also had poly in the rear arms as well (CHE arms) and had solid axle bushings for the uppers. Very stiff, car would break the rears loose even at slight throttle on any surface that wasn't paved, smooth, or the like. Wasn't the power either, it was only a stock HO engine.
Well it would figure I would find out everyone dislikes the Poly after I ordered them. I checked older posts and people seemed excited about them. I guess they finally had to live with them. Lol I will see about sending them back and going the Moog route. :)
Thanks for the heads up John. I sent Ed a PM to see if I can’t get them from him. Sounds like they will come in handy. I had
No idea the rear would cause an issue like that. I think I saw some were using convertible Mustang rear springs?
Well the lead I had on a great 460 deal is gone. I was second in line and of course the first person bought it. Would have been stupid for them not to. It was a totally rebuilt (by an engine shop) 460 with Proform heads, Lunati cam, Edelbrock intake and water pump, etc....he only wanted $1400. Yes....$1400! Hate I just barely missed it. When I saw the ad it had been posted for only 20 hours. Story of my life. Lol I guess it’s a sign to stay with the 351 :)
Oh and actually John my initial idea was to run 15 inch wheels as I wanted a somewhat NASCAR copy with stock car black wheels. I even wanted to go the whole Toploader and pedal swap out, but I have no clue where the shifter would end up. For convenience, I will go AOD. Now I didn’t know about the 17’s not filling the wheel wells that good. I may need to check what the 18’s have to offer. I did like the idea of 10.5 wide wheel in the back. :)
Well won’t believe this. Wen’t to a guy’s Fox yard to get the LCAs for $25. He didn’t want to fool with taking them off the k member, so he said he would just give it to me. He also had some 5 lug steelies with new tires on them and I got those too......all for the grand total of $85. I just needed the wheels to be able to roll the car around once I do the swap. So I really scored today. The only bad is now I am thinking I can use that stock V8 K member as it is in excellent shape and just sell the tubular. That would save me some money and assuming the 351C should fit in there as well. Though I would be losing access space for the headers/starter. At least got the 2.3 with transmission out a few hours ago. What a pain that was to pull the 4 cylinder.
the previous owner of my 87 TC who built up most of the car used 96-98 SN95 spindles with steeda x2 ball joints. according to MM, this is ok because it raises the pivot point enough in the FCA.
the 96-98 spindles seem to be a lot easier to find and cheaper...
Hey Aerocoupe, I was going back through what you said to me on the first page on the steering rack. Now you mentioned since I am using stock Fox LCA's that I can use the Fox inner and outer tie rods with my 2003 rack. Though since I am using the same 2003 spindles, will I still be able to use the Fox inner and outers? Or is that going to push the track width out too much and leave not enough thread? I am having SN95 ball joints pressed on the factory Fox LCAs. Just want to make sure I order the right tie rods. Also I plan on using my factory turbo springs and got a free set of used Fox struts that I plan to test with. I also ordered some offset steering rack bushings in thinking it will help with my AJE K Member. Hope to have it all installed next weekend as I finally got all the stock stuff pulled last weekend. Thanks!
Thanks 85Turbo. I had to take a look at those ball joints. They do look like they would be a good option. The bad thing is I already ordered the Moog SN95's and they will be put on this weekend to the stock Fox LCAs.
Well kind of scratch that. I just found out you can use 1993 Taurus outers on the metric threads of the newer racks and it will give you the same Fox total length. I went ahead and ordered those and with fingers crossed will hope it fits. :)
I have a 460 to c4 bell housing , I ran a 460 in my fairmont with a pan fill c4, fit great and was easy to handle