hello everyone!
Today i had the luck of coming across a 1988 ford thunderbird for an extremely low price, im not overly thrilled with the 3.8/auto setup, but that could be changed at a later date. The car seemed decent enough, considering it's northeast iowa. Ive had dozens of Tbirds before, but most of mine were in the 60's/70's vintage, and i did have a few 94's as well, but ive always thought this body style looked sharp.
My intentions for this car is to be a budget work car/driver/fun little car, most of my vheicles are trucks powered by big blocks, and my 95 Lincoln town car decided it no longer wanted to live as it was pushing 300K.
anyways, heres a few pics!
(http://i.imgur.com/otZRWYc.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/uwj1awp.jpg)
...and here's why i got it so cheap. the strut decided it didnt like to be in one peice anymore.
(http://i.imgur.com/pkuck9I.jpg)
So, the initial plan is to throw some cheap struts in it, give it a proper shakedown, and drive it for the winter months, but the 4 bolt/14 inch wheels just dont fit my tastes. i have already seen that they do offer swap options for a 5x4.5 bolt pattern setup. In particular, im thinking that the 11 inch front brake setup would fit my needs well. if i went and converted the rear axle to the 5 lug setup, can i use the ford explorer/ crown vic rear disc brake setup to get some affordable rear discs?
Also, what sort of backspacing of wheels am i looking to run with the 5 bolt setup? are we talking the typical 0 offset rims? because ive got 1970's steelies, 99 Explorer swiri rims, a set of torq thrusts, several sets of Lincoln and crown vic rims all at my disposal. im really hoping that im able to run a 0 offset rim.
thanks for all the info in advance!
Lee
Read coolcats.net . Replace cougar with tbjrd and 90% of all questions will be answered.
My personal opinion, get some cheap mustang 15" 10 holes and see if ya want to keep the car. If you do, you can unload the tires and rims on craigslist for what you paid for them. Next get a wrecked/blown motored 3.8 v-6 sn-95 mustang. You can reuse most all suspension parts, get a 5 lug upgrade and disc brakes for less then s yard prices, then you will have a good 5 lug driver with a common bolt pattern and almost limitless rim options.
Then come back here when you are ready for a 302/460 swap, or if you have any other questions along the way.
Welcome.
i did find the coolcats.net info. looks like good stuff.
the winter time plans are to run the 14's, i'll find the cheapest set of snow tires for it for Traction action, and if i like the car by spring, then i will look for 5 lug parts.
still, what offset of wheel would i bew running if i did a 5 lug swap?
The offset it going to depend on what size tire you want to run. Typically on these cars a 8" wide wheel up front is about the limit and a 10" wide rear wheel is about the limit. There are a few guys out there running wider and they can chime in on that. I do know that a set of stock 97 Cobra wheels will bolt right on the car with the SN95 five lug conversion so you can look that offset up and go from there.
I nabbed a set of mustang 10 hole 15" rims off of a Facebook garage sale page for $75. now, whats the "suggested size" to run? this is goingto be dialy driver material, so i dont need super wide, i was thinking 225/70R15's, will they clear with ease on these cars?
I run 215/65r15 with plenty of room and an accurate speedo. They are a common accord and camry size, so tires are pretty cheap and easy to find. "Stock" size on 10 holes would be about 225/60, but those tires are a bit more.
If you were to massage the rear fenders, you can go pretty big. I ran 235/60's up front (any wider might rub the strut) and 275/60's out back on my 87tbird. Maxing out the suspension with weight would make the tires rub a bit, but nothing major. 275/50's would actually work much better and keep an accurate speedo. You went to shoot for a 25.5-26" tall tire to keep the speedo close enough.
Run the numbers through a tire calculator to see how the sizes change. I personally like and use a tacoma tire calculator, just seems to work the best for me.
i know the tire calculations by heart, worked as a tire guy/ tire salesman for 15 years.
I had pondered 235/60R15's, they are decent size tire without going too wide, so i could actually get somewhat decent traction in the snow. the tire height would be close enough that the speedo would be pretty close.
the 225/70R15's are a full inch and change taller, the reasons i was considering these were due to the fact that i run that same size on three other cars, and that it will gain me a bit of clearance, which is always helpful on those snowy iowa days like today.
If ya got em or can use them on another car, go for it. The real prpblem on these cars is width more then height. I liked my 235/60's, I ran them both front and back for a while. I just found the 215/65's to be about $10 cheaper for the same brand of tire.
so, i never did get the 10 hole mustang 15" wheels put on. i finally got the car up on a lift, got it all checked over, and found a nice little surprise when i pulled off the rear drums.
the rear shoes were about 5% left. both wheel cylinders were starting to leak. adjusters were rusted solid, and whomever put these shoes on ran the last shoes metal to metal and didnt replace the severely grooved drums. I mic'd em, they're way out of spec. the car has a 3.55 limited slip 7.5 axle in it. Added bonus, both axle seals are leaking.
Moving to the front, brakes are about 25-30% left, but once it comes time to do brakes, it's gonna need a full setup.
So, i found a local guy who is parting out a 98 Mustang convertible. 3.8 auto, has a 7.5 in it. He said he'd sell me the front spindle and brake assemblies, the entire rear axle, and the wheels and tires for $200. Granted, i havent seen the car yet and i have no clue what shape the brakes are in, these are the parts im after to do a 5 lug, 4 wheel disc brake swap, correct? Is there anything else i would need?
On the front get the spindles, rotors if good, and calipers. Get the entire rear end and off that you will need from the axles out to put into and on a 86-93 V8 Fox Mustang 8.8 or 94-98 V8 SN95 Mustang 8.8 rear end housing with third member of your choice. Hopefully the rotors are all in good shape and just need to be turned.
Use the front calipers as the cores for parts store rebuilt '99 SN95 Mustang front calipers. That will get you the 44mm twin piston calipers. Check the rear calipers and if in doubt get reman units for the rear as well.
my car currently has a 7.5, and with the mustang having a 7.5, can i just swap all bracketry , axle shafts, and disc brake goods onto the axle i currently have under the car? i know an 8.8 would be so much better, but im looking at being able to use the most out of the parts i currently have and will get, and if i come across an 8.8 later, i will swap it then.
i have a brake lathe at work, if the rotors are anywhere close to being useable, i'll turn them. i'll be going through and replacing all rubber hoses, and i will properly inspect and assess the calipers. thank you for the heads up on the upgraded front calipers.
while the mustang rims on the car are not my favorite, they will bolt on, and clear fine, correct? They appear to be 16's. i may run them for a bit as i get the other issues on the car sorted out, and then possibly upgrade to 17's for summer driving duties, and keep the 16's for some studded snows to get me through the winter months. I wonder if my Torq thrusts from my Lincoln will fit on the car ...
The mustang stuff should all bolt up as is or swap onto the existing axle. Most guys run 94-98 brakes and axles to keep the same width rear.
Any 16" or larger and most 15" rims should clear fine. Id guess the Lincoln would have the right bolt pattern, maybe not offset.
the mustang rear is a 2.73 open 7.5. the Tbird rear is a 3.55 limited slip. so if i get the chance, i'd much much rather just swap the axle shafts and rear brake assemblies onto my current axle, and then just keep a watchful eye for a 8.8 to swap in later.
So if memory serves me correctly the Fox and SN95 axle housings measure 54' wide and the axle under your car measures 56" wide so the axles out of a Mustang rear will not work with a standard T-Bird rear. This thread has a lot of good info in it that has been gathered up over time:
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?13253-Deciphering-Fox-Axels
So with that said you can sell the 7.5 limited slip and gears for a pretty good chunk of change either on here or on http://www.foureyedpride.com. I strongly suggest you find a Fox 8.8 with gears in it (saw one on http://www.okdhm.com the other day with 3.73's or 3.55's for $200 drum to drum.
Another option would be to have the 3.55's and limited slip put into the SN95 rear but the rebuild kits for the 7.5 limited slip are hard to find and very pricey.
Another good thread currently going on rebuilding an 8.8 on a member's car is here:
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?40000-Rebuilding-TC-8-8-for-my-88-sport
so it sounds like my best bet for the time being is to hang the mustang 7.5 under the car, live with the highway gears for the time being, and keep a watchful eye out for an 8.8. We're all in agreement there?
do i need to run a pair of 1" spacers to maintain the proper track width, or is it so small that it's hardly even noticable?
Im confused as to why a 3.8 car would have 3.55's. Maybe 3.27 with the towing package? Does it have the smooth 10" drums?
That is what I would recommend based on my experience. What you have to understand is that the measurement where the rims bolt up to the rear end between the 94-98 SN95 Mustang rear end versus the rear end in your T-Bird is that the SN95 rear end is 1/4" shorter on each side. Most folks just throw the SN95 rear under the car, bolt the rims up and go.
Little history for you. The 86-93 Fox Mustang 8.8 housing is the same as the 94-98 SN95 8.8 housing in width. Where the SN95 cars get the additional length is in the axles themselves. This is due to these cars having ABS and needing the additional 3/4" per side to allow for the ABS exciter rings on the axles. If the rear end you get has the ABS exciters on the axles and you do not retrofit your car with ABS then you do not have to take the rings off as they tuck behind the rotor and are out of the way.
So, im reading this info on Coolcats http://www.coolcats.net/modifying/4to5lug.html
im seeing that they are saying to swap the tie rod ends to accommodate the 98 spindles?? so, do i need to just get new inners and outers, and they will mate up to my existing rack? or can i run the original 87 stuff??
Also, I know Aerocoupe suggested stepping up to the 99- up calipers to get the dual piston setup, and obviously i would run the 99 pads, but can i run my 98 rotors, or do i need to get 99 rotors to go with that setup?
Another thing that crossed my mind, do i need to nab the master cylinder off of the parts car as well to accommodate the 4 wheel disc?
The 94-98 front rotors will work with the 99 calipers. You need the 93 Cobra MC and Booster. To utilize the SN95 spindles you will need longer outer tie rods. The SN95 stuff is all metric thread and the Fox cars (Mustangs, Birds, Cougars) are SAE thread. I believe there are Taurus outer tie rods that will work. Do a search on this for the Fox Mustangs swapping to the SN95 spindles and it will come up. Hell, do a search on here and you will probably find the answers this as it's been covered a couple of times.
the more i look, the deeper down the rabbit's hole this project will seem to go.
am i better off pressing new 98 mustang lower ball joints into my LCA? A front end rebuild was in the plans, and so maybe right now is the time to do so. it looks like otherwise i may be looking into putting a spacer in to get correct cotter key engagement.
I have read plenty of fox body mustang threads, half the guys claim they use bumpsteer kits, the other half use stock fox body tie rods. I searched this forum and have not yet found a thread mentioning using any other tie rods. I guess i could just play it by feel, and when i get the spindles on, and the tie rods dont adjust out enough, maybe i will swap to the 98 inners and outers at that point.
i donno. my heads starting to spin. maybe its time to go play some Donkey Kong.
Lots of good reading on the swap in these threads:
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?36678
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?37339
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?37031
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?31122
Info on the outer tie rods when using SN95 spindles:
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?37200
With regards to the ball joints that is covered in some of the threads above but just use the SN95 style ones in your Fox control arms. Avoids the spacer between the bottom of the SN95 spindle the and Fox ball joint. One other thing that I will point out is that Maximum Motorsports recommends that a person use 94-95 spindles on a Fox car with a stock K-member for geometry reasons. The 96+ spindles are to be used with aftermarket tubular K-members as most aftermarket ones were designed for the 96+ spindles due to the better geometry. With that said...I ran the 96+ spindles on my Coupe with a stock K-member and a taper style bump steer kit and did not notice any issues but it was 100% street driven at that point.
Aero, thanks again, your searching skills seem to be way above mine.
Meh, I've learned to manipulate the search engine on here over time. Keep at it and you will learn the ways of the dark side as well.
i have seen several mentions of the Taurus outer tie rod ends being used, but i have not actually seen what year of taurus to get them off of. or for, mind you, as i'll be ordering new.
i think my plan will be to run 98 inner tie rod ends on my stock rack, and then run taurus outer tie rod ends. I know some have complained about bumpsteer, but i worry how well the bumpseer kits will work daily driving the car on worn out Iowa two lanes.
I believe it is 1993 Taurus tie rod ends that you want to use in conjunction with the SN95 inner tie rods. Here is how it breaks down:
Inner Tie Length
Fox Mustang, Bird, Cougar - 11.50"
SN95 Mustang - 13.327"
Outer Tie Rod Length
Fox Mustang, Bird, Cougar - 5.85"
SN95 Mustang - 5.45"
1993 Taurus - 4.30"
Fox inner and outer = 17.35"
SN95 Inner & Outer = 18.777"
SN95 Inner & Taurus Outer = 17.627"
With all of that doing the SN95 Inner and Taurus Outer nets you about 9/32" additional length over the Fox Inner & Outer. This seems to be the additional length needed to get enough thread engagement for the additional distance the tie rod attachment point is moved outward with the SN95 spindles. Another option is to use SN95 Inner & Outer and cut the Outer to length if you are comfortable with doing that. The reason you have to cut the outer is that fully threaded in it is too long on most cars and you need some adjustment for the alignment shop.
There is another solution which is keep the Fox Inner tie rod and use the Maximum Motorsports tapered style bumpsteer kit which is what I used on my Mustang with SN95 spindles prior to switching to their full suspension up front.
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Bumpsteer-kit-1979-93-Mustang-tapered-stud-style-P449.aspx
Me personally I would get the bumpsteer kit as new inner and outer tie rods will cost you about the same and you have the advantage of setting the bumpsteer. You do not need the bumpsteer gauge for a street car as you can eyeball it and get it close like I did. Setting them up with the gauge is better but not worth the effort for a street car that will not be on a track if you ask me. Also, bumpsteer is more noticeable on roads with crowns and potholes than smooth surfaces on a street car. So with that I would be way more concerned with bumpsteer on your worn out Iowa two lanes than a new four lane.
my intentions were to replace the ball joints and all tie rods ends at the time of the swap, as everything had a very slight amount of play in it, so i cant really figure on one tie rod setup being overly cost effective over another. however, the bumpsteer kit is quite nice, and reasonably priced, considering. did the bumpsteer kit show any wear under regular street driving?
Put over 20,000 miles on the one set and sold it when I converted to the bolt through style so yeah I'd say they held up.
related question: what size wheels are needed to clear sn95 cobra brakes? 16in? 17in?
-Kyle
17" minimum. All Cobras came with this size.
Thank you!
So, bringing this thread back.
I bought a set of 98 Mustang front spindles and a 98 mustang 7.5 with factory discs. Was originally going to swap all that in, and eventually look at a different rear when the 7.5 decided it was no longer happy.
i'm now getting a turbo coupe 8.8. I like the idea of an 8.8, especially because I'm looking at a manual trans. But i'm set on converting to 5 lug.
i'm reading this:
http://www.coolcats.net/modifying/4to5lug.html
Did i read this correctly? i can take my 7.5 axles out of my mustang axle, and put them into this 8.8? and then run the mustang brake parts?
Direct swap. Strip your TC rear down to the axle housing with the gears left in it. Do the same with the SN95 7.5 rear. Swap the SN95 axle brackets onto the 8.8, install the SN95 axles and c-clips, install the &.8 cross pin and retaining bolt with some new loctite. From here reassemble the SN95 brakes. I would suggest rebuilding the trac-lok while you are this deep into the 8.8 but that’s just me.
It's been rebuilt, i think. if not, I'll definitely be giving it a refreshening.
I'm glad i dont need to go track down axle shafts. makes my life a bit easier.
I didnt mention this before, but i did pick up a bumpsteer kit this fall. I actually found a local guy selling fox body parts, got a Saleen rack, the bumpseer outer tie rod parts, and a set of new offset rack bushings for $100.
Ok, im close to having all the required parts to do the front swap, but i need to know, what shims should i use for the front struts, when going with the 98 mustang spindles? The struts are brand new, so i dont want ot go buy a set of mustang struts.
You are needing the strut shims. Used to be able to find them but not so much any more. You need two 1/8” shims per side so get some 1/8 plate or strap, cut to size, drill holes, and install. Some have used washers but if it were me I would make the shims.
One thing to remember is struts are valved for spring rates so matching them is pretty beneficial. If you have struts for a V6 or a 4 cylinder then using them with V8 springs will not be ideal.
I actually ordered the struts in antition for the v8 to go in, so they are set in that aspect.
I was hoping someone, somewhere made the shims, but no bother, i'll just make some myself then.
Quick google search and found these:
https://www.racecraft.com/koni-struts-c-405_446_449/mustang-strut-spacers-p-64.html
Aero, you're my hero!
waking this thread up again...
My parts stash is ever growing, it seems. I now own three different axles i was planning on swapping in the car, first the 7.5 out of a 98 mustang, then an 88 TC 8.8, and now, a 94 Mustang 8.8 thats been beefed up with 4.10s.
I also have my 98 mustang spindles, as well as a set of 94 mustang spindles. the 94 spindles are ideal, correct? or should i go with the 98 spindles still? i plan on lowering the car an inch or so using 98 mustang springs, and i do have a bumpsteer kit and a new rack to swap in.
Here's the wheels i plan on running. 17's off an 08 mustang. i have two sets of em now.
(https://i.imgur.com/uK0sewEl.jpg)
As we discussed, 94-95 spindles are ideal for a stock k-member car. Can you use the 96+ spindles on a stock k-member car? You can but the negative effects are a tad bit wider track and you get to deal with some bump steer. So the wheels of the 08 Mustang might work up front but the offset in the rear may be funky but I cannot say for sure. The '08 wheels should be a 17x8 with a +45mm offset and came factory with a 245/45R17. I know that the '97 Cobra wheels fit and they are a 17x8 with a +30mm offset and most run a 245/40R17 tire on them. Running the numbers the '08 wheel will move about 0.5" inward compared to the '97 Cobra wheel. The '97 Cobra wheels were already a bit far inward in the rear of the car for me so the '08's will just move them farther inward. The additional inward movement may cause rubbing issues on the front struts as well. I know most Fox cars can use the SN95 (94-98) and New Edge or S197 (99-04) wheels just fine when flipped to a five lug conversion. Hope this helps.
Go back to this thread where we talked about wheels and use that calculator I linked.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?40587