Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: jcassity on October 16, 2015, 10:35:32 AM
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on October 16, 2015, 10:35:32 AM
I drove from clarion & Lock haven pa where I have projects going and when I got close to Lewisburg wv, I noticed I was chilly.
I had the blower up on defrost like I normally do for heat and I felt the air,,, it was almost ice cold. my temp gauge said all was normal but my gut feeling was that I "just recently developed a leak" and so continued to monitor the temp gauge. through heavy hills and such the temp stayed great,, full digital dash showing 4 bars as normal.
I got to Lewisburg and pull into the Go Mart, stopped the car and listened for a min for that sound I didn't want to hear but it never came. I popped the hood and felt very little heat radiating from the motor.
I felt the upper hose and it felt rock solid,, like air being trapped, it was rather cold. I felt the lower hose and it was cold I felt the upper part of the radiator and it was only luke warm I felt the lower part of the radiator and it was bone cold I felt the heater core hoses and they were cold
I decided that I got lucky over the past 380 miles and if there is a lack of water, then the heater core is just up too high to get any water in it,, although none of the above list I just made was making sense.
I gently released radiator pressure by taking off the cap and to my amazement coolant was purging out on the ground. I added what amounted to maybe a few shot glasses of coolant in but for the sake of this conversation the coolant was *NOT * low. I put my finger down into the coolant and it was just luke warm I felt the engine itself and it was almost like a cold motor,, I was not able to get burnt by touching things,, even the exhaust headers I was able to touch.
I know this all sounds rather impossible but it happened,, and its winter so I will need heat.
so....... where is the problem.?
One side of me says nothing is broke because the motor is running just fine. Its almost like a zombie motor, its got 280k , perhaps its a walking dead problem?
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 16, 2015, 02:33:59 PM
Thermostat stuck open?
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on October 16, 2015, 05:13:42 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;451787
Thermostat stuck open?
Only logical answer...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: mcb82gt on October 16, 2015, 05:18:52 PM
But how in the hell could he touch the headers?????????
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on October 16, 2015, 09:49:05 PM
Ill check that tomorrow,,
if its stuck open,, then with the rad cap off, it should be flowing water constantly ,,
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on October 17, 2015, 05:06:41 PM
well, I think I figured it out.
may be a combination of things.
First, I took the cap off this morning and looked down inside the rad, it appeared "kinda low" so I was able to fit about a quart ... not really low in my book.
next I started up the car and watched, the fluid did not move out of the fins on the interior of the radiator so that told me the tstat isn't stuck open.
I put check the overflow tank and something seemed odd... it was plum full all the way up the long skinny neck but shy of a couple inches from the tip top!
so... I put the cap back on because seeing this gave me an idea.... I started up the car and yup! sure enough as the car heated, the overflow tank was trickling over.
so,, in short, i replaced my rad cap and we will see what happens on the next road trip.
for other matters... my upper half of my radiator is warm and the lower half is staying cold even with a new cap.
It may be time for a new radiator,, but with this being said im not really sure why its not overheating instead.
oh well.. zombies i say!!
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on October 19, 2015, 06:16:38 PM
looks like the radiator cap did not Heat me up better so,, i got to thinking.
back when i did my heater core change, i did install a small socket inside the supply line side.
Im wondering if the socket little square end is now partially clogged up.
i cant remember but i think the socket i stuffed inside the hose was 3/8'' drive.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: CoogarXR on October 19, 2015, 06:46:06 PM
I had a geo metro with similar symptoms and it was a blown head gasket. Combustion air was getting into the coolant path and pushing it out into the overflow.
May or may not be your situation, but I figured I'd throw that out there. Any bubbles in the radiator when the engine is running?
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Thunderbird88 on October 19, 2015, 08:56:36 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;451787
Thermostat stuck open?
Doesn't that make the engine overheat due to the water being cooled in the radiator just passes through with no time to cool down? That's what I've heard.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: JeremyB on October 20, 2015, 10:56:56 AM
Quote from: Thunderbird88;451824
Doesn't that make the engine overheat due to the water being cooled in the radiator just passes through with no time to cool down? That's what I've heard.
Just an old wive's tale.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 20, 2015, 02:04:44 PM
Quote from: jcassity;451797
well, I think I figured it out.
may be a combination of things.
First, I took the cap off this morning and looked down inside the rad, it appeared "kinda low" so I was able to fit about a quart ... not really low in my book.
next I started up the car and watched, the fluid did not move out of the fins on the interior of the radiator so that told me the tstat isn't stuck open.
I put check the overflow tank and something seemed odd... it was plum full all the way up the long skinny neck but shy of a couple inches from the tip top!
so... I put the cap back on because seeing this gave me an idea.... I started up the car and yup! sure enough as the car heated, the overflow tank was trickling over.
so,, in short, i replaced my rad cap and we will see what happens on the next road trip.
for other matters... my upper half of my radiator is warm and the lower half is staying cold even with a new cap.
It may be time for a new radiator,, but with this being said im not really sure why its not overheating instead.
oh well.. zombies i say!!
Radiator plugged? If it's factory original it might be.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: mcb82gt on October 21, 2015, 05:30:47 PM
Im still not sure how he could touch the headers and not be "hot".
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on October 21, 2015, 07:36:08 PM
im still not getting enough heat in the cabin,, as for the headers I think personally im gifted with lots of extra skin I guess,, dono but just now again, the engine is oddly cool and the headers ,, well seems still to be oddly cool.,, yet I do have very thick working hands (skin that is so maybe its just me).
I am leaning on my heater core restrictor is clogged up a tad so I am home now,, ill see about this and ping you all back.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on January 19, 2016, 10:41:47 PM
well race fans,, i changed my radiator and no dice,, same problem.
finally i lowered myself to taking the car in to the ford dealer in Clarion pa. told my story, tech took old girl back.
did some tests, checking this and that and pressure testing ect.
he said my tstat is staying open, yeah i knew that. Told me my lower part of the rad was cold and upper half hot.,, yea knew that to. He told me that all my dash readings look ok and that for the most part he's not seeing a problem other than its doing the opposite of what it should be.,, it should overheat.
He handed me a piece of cardboard and told me to put it infront of the radiator this winter and instructed me to get that car out of here because he has no clue why its not over heating because it should be.
so... i quickly realized i was dealing with someone who didn't like getting his ass kicked and especially since he was the oldest and most respected guy there, he brought up a topic that i saw here not too long ago by a member "who's name shall not be spoken". I am suspecting the water pump fins are corroded away and mostly absent.,, basically partial water pump circulation but not enough.
that would answer so many questions have had. .... so... with all this wonderful weather we are having im going to take full advantage of getting bundled up in all my north pole gear to enjoy the activity of doing a pump. Perhaps i will do it right after i turn off the car so at the least i will have some warmth. the garage if full right now with the other cougar build.
i thought it was funny i got handed a piece of cardboard as my solution the problem.. LOL
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on January 19, 2016, 11:04:32 PM
I'm confused, why didn't you replace the t-stat?
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on January 19, 2016, 11:12:36 PM
because i know the stat isn't going to fix anything. i can take the upper hose off and with a light i can see that eventually the tstat closes when things cool down.
ive change the tstat like three times in 2015 troubleshooting this. including rad cap.
the heater core is NOS put in a couple years ago,, all hoses are new also.
its barely tolerable in the car with this wonderful weather.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on January 19, 2016, 11:39:10 PM
Gotchya. I didn't know you had already swapped it. There has to be coolant getting by somewhere where it shouldn't be.
My old crown vic wagon started spraying coolant out of the water pump nipples. When I removed the water pump I found no antifreeze, just straight rust colored water and no blades on the water pump. It never did overheat until the coolant leak.
With the new water pump it started to overheat randomly and then I would get big orange chunks in the radiator that were solid and hard but looked like a sponge. No matter how many times I tried flushing it, I kept getting them in the radiator. I eventually just decided to ignore it and it kept putting along until my sister messed up the axle hitting a curb. Then it kept eating axles and rear wheel bearings and I junked it and bought my cougar. I checked the radiator before I drove it the the junkyard and it looked like someone filled the whole radiator with expanding foam.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Beau on January 20, 2016, 01:26:31 AM
My money's on the w/p being bad...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on January 20, 2016, 11:01:00 AM
The way to test for good flow through radiator is with coolant down approx six inches, there should good streams flowing from visible cores(open thermostat of course)... Also cold heater hoses are a giveaway flow is minimal at best... Of course could indicate core is plugged but usually the inlet hose will be hot...
I had a 3.0 Aerostar around here for awhile that had bad water pump impeller, would idle and generally drive OK till at least till the A/C was on, then it overheated...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 20, 2016, 02:39:46 PM
How old is the water pump? If it's original; A: that's impressive and B: yeah it probably doesn't work very good at all. Water pump replacements are cheap but a pain if the bolts get stuck in the timing cover. I always cover the bolt threads that go into the timing cover with thread sealer (the white ARP or Permatex stuff is fine) to keep them from sticking if the pump ever has to come out.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Beau on January 20, 2016, 05:25:53 PM
Use heat on those bolts Scott...and go back and forth with them. You probably know this though. I got luck on my project engine, but it was easy to do since it was on a stand and not in the car. Heat, back and forth, patience, and knowledge that if I snapped a bolt, I'd be in a pickle. Lou is on it too....I used ARP as well on the reassembly. Used it on all of the w/p bolts, for that matter.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jandmmustangs on January 20, 2016, 05:32:56 PM
All signs lead to water pump. I had a similar situation in a 99 expedition 5.4 liter. No heat, everything cool/cold to the touch, no overheating. After many flushes, including the heater cores (rear heat on this one) there was little to no coolant flow. Pulled the water pump and there were no fins left at all. Ironically, when you'd take the engine over 3500 rpm the heat at the vent would crest over 65 degrees. Replaced pump, topped off coolant, heat output at the vent jumped to borderline uncomfortably hot. Problem solved after an afternoon of frustration.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on January 20, 2016, 10:39:18 PM
IM second owner,, but I cant say the water pump "isn't" original.
guys, now that you mention it,, on my trips weekly up north I sometimes stop to just simply check under the hood and no matter how many miles I put behind me, im able to take off the rad cap with no pressure.,,,, I forgot to watch for flow tom like you mentioned,, and this stupid radiator doesn't have the petpen 15 with a drain nipple like the other.... so.. ill check flow anyway.
but......... anyway, I actually wondering why I don't build pressure at all. hell who knows, its staying cool so why should it build pressure right?
yep, will heat bolts and wiggle them out. I got lucky I guess on the bronco, the timing cover bolts came out real nice, used anti-seize when they went back in.
I hope I can do a pump this weekend but maybe the winter wonder land has other plans for me.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on January 21, 2016, 10:02:36 AM
Pump on my old Comet 302 had frozen bolts on passenger side, shanks were rusted in place inside the timing cover... Was obvious they weren't coming out without breaking, so I used my small 12v battery Dewalt impact to rattle them for awhile... Took a couple minutes of back and forth but they finally gave up and came out...
I won't apply heat a aluminum timing cover unless I'm going to pull it, don't trust the cover to block gasket after it's been heated...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Thunderbird88 on January 25, 2016, 05:23:06 AM
Do you have water coming out of the small hole on the waterpump? If yes, change it. Happened to both me and my father on the exact same summer aswell.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Beau on January 25, 2016, 08:11:09 AM
If his impeller is corroded away, the pump will still be bad but not bleeding out antifreeze...
And again, my money is on the pump being bad. Had the same thing happen happen too many times to my own stuff to see it being elsewhere.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on January 25, 2016, 08:35:37 AM
If Scott hasn't already swapped the pump, it may be awhile... They got 20" of snow up that way on Saturday..
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 02, 2016, 12:56:44 AM
Well, got the bolts out with natural heat instead of artificial heat.
changed the pump and was surprised. it was a Reman,, professionally stamped as such with some odd ball numbering reman stamping.
impellers were in tact, looked totally brand new.
I felt like packman after taking a drive,, you know where the ghost eats packman,,, still same problem.
Update though,, on the way up to pa today, I felt the upper hose and it had pressure !!!
so,, back to the cardboard game till spring I guess.
if its warm this week I will dig into the ductwork and see if something is fubar there. Ive been wanting to take out the blower anyway and clean the squirrel cage for the first time ever.
I pretty much totally give up.
even the radiator is still cold on the bottom half and warm on the top.
maybe if it stays warm it wont matter,, and by spring the problem will go away lol.... till next winter.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: ZondaC12 on February 02, 2016, 09:55:50 AM
I saw the thread title in the main listing for last-posted-in and I thought "I know EXACTLY who the thread starter HAS to be" :rollin: And then saw the date. Kinda jogged my memory and then I realized I didn't partite in the discussion. Don't know why this didn't get a rise out of me back then.
Do you have an IR thermometer gun? I'd definitely be pointing it at everything. Is the radiator stock or did someone upgrade it in years prior? If the car's temp gauge isn't BS'ing you...in the winter especially doing a lot of highway I wouldn't be terribly surprised if things generally feel cool in the engine bay. Even exhaust...headers I'd expect to be red hot but manifolds probably insulate fairly well and their rough texture and surface area conduct heat into the air far better than tubular headers.
Coolant control valve OK? I feel like that hasn't been mentioned yet. I unplugged that long ago in my 20th, it does have EATC. Always annoyed me that this wouldn't let coolant flow to the heater until some setpoint (don't know what that point is). But either that's just barely not being satisfied or the valve failed shut. You should get SOMETHING out of the vents. Does air even move at all out of each discharge position? Foxes don't seem to blow too hard out of the dash except for the one right between the clock and instrumentation. But the air should at least be warmer than whatever is in the interior already. Heatercore isn't getting anything. Can't be. Or the blend door is stuck on cold.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 02, 2016, 11:41:15 AM
Quote from: ZondaC12;453607
Coolant control valve OK? I feel like that hasn't been mentioned yet. I unplugged that long ago in my 20th, it does have EATC. Always annoyed me that this wouldn't let coolant flow to the heater until some setpoint (don't know what that point is). But either that's just barely not being satisfied or the valve failed shut. You should get SOMETHING out of the vents. Does air even move at all out of each discharge position? Foxes don't seem to blow too hard out of the dash except for the one right between the clock and instrumentation. But the air should at least be warmer than whatever is in the interior already. Heatercore isn't getting anything. Can't be. Or the blend door is stuck on cold.
Uh the EATC doesn't have a valve that shuts off flow to the heater core. The sensor in the heater hose actually just keeps the blower fan from turning on until the coolant circulating through the core is around 120*. It doesn't block coolant flow at all. You can override the sensor by just turning the fan from "AUTO" to "HIGH", "LOW", or "MEDIUM".
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: ZondaC12 on February 02, 2016, 07:57:12 PM
Ehhh idk ;) I'm pretty sure that's exactly what my 20th has. My grandpa marquis has a temp-sensor ACC but it's not an EATC with electric servos moving everything instead of vacuum solenoids and push-button control. THAT car has a switch that I deleted. This switch is mechanical, using a thermostat in the heater hose. The switch routes vacuum and electricity, and does just what you described. Causes floor to not work at all when it fails, which mine did.
I remember the sale thread for Scott's car...my hunch is that it doesn't have EATC which would make it a moot point anyway.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 02, 2016, 08:07:38 PM
Quote from: jcassity;453603
even the radiator is still cold on the bottom half and warm on the top.
Assuming the radiator is doing it's job it should be cool, especially in colder weather... In winter likely could cool most engines with ¼ amount of radiator that's in most cars...
Cover the upper half with cardboard, the lower half will warm up... Not going to help your heat though...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 03, 2016, 03:48:47 PM
yeah I has EATC,, that sensor "T" is not installed inline with the supply at all, its laid off to the side as the previous owner must have found it practical to omit. it has all things std 20th anny issue except sunroof.
new tstat, heater core, water pump, radiator , new hoses from off an on troubleshooting or simple preventative maint I do.
it has to be up in the duct work.
if you reach to the far right on my EATC duct work down low to the right of the blower, there is a door, is fully closed when I call for heat. I need to study up or understand if there is another blend door internally or what.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Chris1987LX on February 03, 2016, 05:01:07 PM
Come to think of it, my Bird never seems to build up pressure in the radiator and I can take the radiator cap off at any point and it doesn't spray out. I'll be doing a compression test on mine eventually to see if there's some kind of leak or something in the system.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 03, 2016, 07:10:21 PM
Quote from: Chris1987LX;453632
Come to think of it, my Bird never seems to build up pressure in the radiator and I can take the radiator cap off at any point and it doesn't spray out. I'll be doing a compression test on mine eventually to see if there's some kind of leak or something in the system.
If you have no pressure it's leaking out somewhere. Probably not a head gasket as it would be loosing coolant and/or over-pressurize the cooling system. It's more than likely bleeding pressure from a bad radiator cap seal or a minor leak somewhere in the cooling system.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 03, 2016, 09:09:55 PM
holly ,, there's Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! good to see you back !~!
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 03, 2016, 09:14:54 PM
did some laser readings.
mounted a cheapy dial thermometer in front of the vent to the left of the clock to monitor heat delivery.
190deg at tstat kneck 170deg at heater core input 150 at return of heater core
supply vent temps sitting still- thermometer said 120 deg while on med blower speed.
Blower housing was reading 69*,, outside air was prob like 55 to 60ish
when I drive the vent temp drops to 104 to 106. when I select high heat and drive, the thermometer said 90 and was still dropping !!.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 03, 2016, 09:15:19 PM
question,, when one selects heat,, where does the blower motor get its input air?
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 03, 2016, 09:19:09 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;453616
Assuming the radiator is doing it's job it should be cool, especially in colder weather... In winter likely could cool most engines with ¼ amount of radiator that's in most cars...
Cover the upper half with cardboard, the lower half will warm up... Not going to help your heat though...
tom, been running cardboard on the upper half for a lot of road miles and the upper half gets a tad hotter and I don't feel a difference on the lower.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 03, 2016, 09:48:56 PM
Quote from: jcassity;453642
question,, when one selects heat,, where does the blower motor get its input air?
Should be in the EVTM... I know I've seen diagram somewhere...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 03, 2016, 10:30:11 PM
Quote from: jcassity;453641
when I select high heat and drive, the thermometer said 90 and was still dropping !!.
You either have outside air bypassing the heater core, poor coolant flow through core or maybe it's partially clogged... If it's not a duct/routing problem through heater plenum, the core is partially plugged... I don't think you should be getting the amount of temp differential on inlet and outlet heater hoses, core may have a restriction... Speaking of restrictions there is often one in the core inlet...
Heaters can be funny, bout a 100 years a go I had a '64 Galaxie with 289 that would freeze you to death in winter... I tried two new 180* T-stats with no help(at that time I was yet to see a 195* stat)... I used to run heater on low to get any heat at all... Well a buddy blew up the 289 in his '65 Comet and upon taking it apart I noticed it had a 195 stat... I figured what the Hell and stuck it in my car, had plenty of heat... Next spring I swapped engines and inst a 390 that had a 180 stat, thinking I'd need to put a 195 in it next fall to have good heat(back then big & small block T-stats were different)... Surprise the 180 gave plenty of heat in the bigger engine, never swapped it in the time I had the car, something like five years...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Beau on February 04, 2016, 01:32:23 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;453646
Speaking of restrictions there is often one in the core inlet...
I believe he said in a prior post he put a small socket in a heater hose....
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 04, 2016, 11:45:48 AM
I've got a 180* thermostat in my Thunderbird. When I drive it in April or October and outside temperatures are in the 40*-50* range it makes good heat. I do have the factory restrictor in the heater core line as well. I'm not sure how well it would run in cold weather (I never drive the Thunderbird between November 1st to March 31st when it's really cold) but when it's in the 50's or below temperature wise the car barely runs above 180*....
I do drive my Mark VII when it's cold out (i.e. below freezing) and it has a 195* thermostat. It has no trouble producing heat in those temperatures.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2016, 12:48:34 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;453649
I believe he said in a prior post he put a small socket in a heater hose....
yeah,, I have a small socket in the inlet hose which has a 3/8'' drive opening.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2016, 12:56:36 PM
the blower box temp being so low is bothering me.
I would think that if you call for max heat, that the blend doors would use the inside cabin air to push through the core and out the vents.
oddly enough I have the white coug torn apart and never have noticed the path taken if outside air is selected. for some reason im thinking its way up high above the EEC somewhere
I must have missed that day in school about the radiator though tom,, I was sure that the rad would get hot evenly no matter what the normal temp ranges were outside.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Beau on February 04, 2016, 01:36:04 PM
The outside air comes in through the cowl vent over on the passenger side....not so sure if on an EATC animal there's any kind of recirculation of the cabin air though..
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: MobileBill23 on February 04, 2016, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;453659
The outside air comes in through the cowl vent over on the passenger side....not so sure if on an EATC animal there's any kind of recirculation of the cabin air though..
According to the EVTM diagram, the EATC will recirculate air from the cabin, so there's a door there somewhere. Sounds like testing whether or not that actuator is working might help.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2016, 06:46:39 PM
yes, there is a door,,, you simply reach up on the right hand "wall" of the duct housing and its right there.
from left to right.
directly behind your center EQ or storage pocket , on the "TOP" of the duct there is an internal louver that pics floor or vent air. directly or sorta directly behind the power trunk button there is a louver that moves synchronous to the temperature you chose directly to the far right hand side of the duct the very end there is a door that picks cabin air. Mine opens up when I pick defrost, remains closed in all other settings.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2016, 06:50:30 PM
in my case all the actuators are moving when I change settings from this to that yada yada yada...
update
outside air was 37degF with vent selected with medium heat selected with temp set to max heat vents produced 96deg air
so with this update combined with the other previous post I gave, you can see how cold I must be getting especially with its in the 20's and teens outside.
Bo, I gotta find that port your talking about.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2016, 06:55:19 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;453659
The outside air comes in through the cowl vent over on the passenger side....not so sure if on an EATC animal there's any kind of recirculation of the cabin air though..
Ill go look at my son's car,, its torn down so I might find what your talking about. the hole or path will be there regardless of it having eatc or not I would assume especially since these cars are all stamped out the same.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2016, 09:44:20 PM
WOW!! found it,, its a SNORKLE !
so,, I covered it up and ..................
NO CHANGE.
I do feel guilty of forgetting to mention something though.... the last tstat I purchased did not have the tiny fail safe hole so,, I drilled one in about 3/16'' of an inch. that shouldn't really be a problem though.
I think ill remove the restrictor out of the supply pipe.,,, and perhaps toss in a 195 stat
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 04, 2016, 10:29:56 PM
WOW 3/16 inch??? My truck wouldn't heat because the PO drilled three 1/8 holes in the stat... I replaced it with one that has no weep hole at all, heats now...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Beau on February 05, 2016, 01:06:08 AM
Yeah, was gonna say that most very likely, the manual control cars and the EATC equppied cars will be indeticl in regards to the cowl stamping for the air inlets.
I'd also be willing to wager the cost of a 195* t-stat that the 195 t stat will likely be a difference maker.
I had (still have it, but the transmission said "piss on you" 3 years ago) an '88 Chevy truck. Got to where the heat was lukewarm at best, and on cold days/nights (20* or less) it wouldn't even blow but cool air, so we flushed the radiator and slapped in a new stat (195) and after that it would drive you out it would get so ed warm. There wasn't a before and after difference in the gauge, and the hoses were definitely warmer to the touch after, so perhaps the old coolant wasn't worth a and the stat was junk..who knows, but it sure made it work much better. Now about that trans......
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: softtouch on February 05, 2016, 01:11:59 AM
Sometimes the weep hole is a tiny knick in the edge of the valve. Hard to see unless you hold it up to a light. It is there to let the air out as the coolant rises in the block when you are filling it.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on February 05, 2016, 01:18:22 AM
I'm gonna check my vent temps, just for fun.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on February 05, 2016, 01:50:18 AM
22.5°f ambient temperature. After 15 mins of idle time and 2 SPD Taurus fan on high I get 136.7°f with vents set to high and with Taurus fan on low and heater fan set to low I get 153.4°f.
Unknown mileage on heater core, but it is at least 5 years old. Radiator is either original or very old. It had a tree grown between it and the condenser when I bought the car. 329.5k miles give or take.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on February 05, 2016, 01:58:33 AM
My last tbird never got warm. Guage read n in normal, but a 25 minute drive with 2nd gear only at 55mph (burned up trans) was how long it took to get some heat out of the vents. At idle it wouldn't even defrost the windows. After swapping from the 180° to a 195° thermostat it took less then 5 minutes of driving to get face melting heat.
Gotta remember though, this was 2nd gear at 55mph. Probably near 3k rpm's. This burned up trans is why I did the t-5 swap. My buddy wrecked his mustang, rental car side swiped him. He wanted to upgrade from a 2.3 to a gt when he got the insurance check and couldn't find one. I talked him into a 87 bird which he bought for $400 with the blown trans. The idea was a h.o. swap and t-5. Instead he decided to junk the car for $350 and use the rest of the check to enroll in community college. I bought the car off him for $400 trying to help him out and planned on hanging onto it until he wanted to work on it, then his father died and he inherited a new nice car so he didn't want it back.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 05, 2016, 06:25:25 AM
Quote from: softtouch;453680
Sometimes the weep hole is a tiny knick in the edge of the valve. Hard to see unless you hold it up to a light. It is there to let the air out as the coolant rises in the block when you are filling it.
I remove the heater hose on intake(behind T-stat) or at core, results will be same and probably a lot better... If there is no movement into the radiator(and there is gonna be with a 3/16 hole in it), the pump can better force the coolant into heater core... Plus temp will rise far faster than with hole, took my truck 30 minutes highway to finally make heat and never got as warm as I'd like... I originally thought the T-stat was partially stuck open...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 05, 2016, 10:30:39 AM
Quote from: jcassity;453676
WOW!! found it,, its a SNORKLE !
I do feel guilty of forgetting to mention something though.... the last tstat I purchased did not have the tiny fail safe hole so,, I drilled one in about 3/16'' of an inch. that shouldn't really be a problem though.
3/16" hole? That might be an issue. With that big of a hole the thermostat can't close all the way. In other words coolant is always flowing, even with the thermostat shut. Replace that thermostat with a 195* unit and do not drill any holes in it. I never drill any holes in thermostats I install and I've yet to have an issue bleeding the cooling system of air.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 05, 2016, 04:45:38 PM
,,, 3/16'' is huge,,, lol I meant 3/32''
either way every tstat that has that fail safe also includes the tiny dingle berry check valve thingy which I don't have.
ok,, what all my past tstats have in common,,, I drilled a 3/32'' fail safe hole because I fell like I lessen the odds of blowing a hose by having one. with as much travel as I do, I like the reduced risk when far from my shop.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 05, 2016, 05:07:39 PM
I've never used a fail safe thermostat. They tend to stick open and cause an over-cooling issue. I just buy a good quality replacement, like this: http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/stant-superstat-premium-thermostat-195-degrees-fahrenheit-45359/5653576-P?navigationPath=L1*14922%7CL2*15023%7CL3*15971
Go to Advance Auto, buy one, and swap it in. DO NOT drill any holes in it. This should help your issue.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 05, 2016, 06:59:57 PM
All the newer stuff use a T-stat that allows no circulation until it opens... Mostly a emissions thing that gives a faster warm up, but does give better heater operation... Last I remember there weren't dozens of cars littered along the highway that had overheated...
Other than burping, I don't see any thermostat with a hole as beneficial... If hole is large enough to reduce overheating, it's also large enough to prevent warmup in cold weather...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: 1BadBird on February 05, 2016, 09:38:34 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;453696
I've never used a fail safe thermostat. They tend to stick open and cause an over-cooling issue.
I've used one and yes, they suck.......I mean stuck open. I had 93' Tempo with the same non heating issue, replaced T-stat numerous times, replaced the heater core, nothing fixed the problem. Apparently, it had always had that problem and my wife's grandfather (who bought the car new) just dealt with it.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 06, 2016, 09:05:33 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;453699
If hole is large enough to reduce overheating, it's also large enough to prevent warmup in cold weather...
brilliant I say!!!!!!!!!
that sounds like one of those types of answers I would get from my navy C school instructor,, which was also my professor in tech school,,, he tended to give you the answer that was right in front of your face the whole time but sorta indirectly, yet give it to you in a way that you had no other recourse other than to say,,, yeah,, im a dumb ass,,
your right,,,, I should have figured this out by now. ive known all along since buying this car that I found it odd it had the failsafe stat, I will switch and see what gives.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 06, 2016, 10:02:43 AM
LOL, Scott last thing I think is you are a DA, but you do tend to overthink on occasion... Oddly I've been accused myself a time or two... :rollin:
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Beau on February 06, 2016, 12:38:09 PM
Better to overthink things, than to not think about them near enough. ;)
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 08, 2016, 09:06:45 PM
was kidding up there tom , but like the way you say things.
so ,, I changed that tstat and to point out to the hole I drilled, I remembered from last fall that I just grabbed any rather small bit then simply pulled up early as soon as the tip punched through. the hole is prob the diameter of a tiny finishing nail... but pretty dead on with 3/32
bad part here is that that when I bought this new tstat from this past saturday and looked at it there was no fail safe so back in the box it went. then when I pulled it out of the box at home,,, apparently they are hiding the failsafe up under the pointy metal part tucked nicely up in a hidy hole area.
normally you can just simply see the fail safe on the out skirts of the outer part of the stat,, so I ended up putting this one in anyway which sucks because I have the same problem, granted I do have about 115deg air now,, I can honestly tell exactly when the stat opens up because my air coming out the vents cools down a few degrees.
so,, I simply need to do what was mentioned,,, find one without a failsafe dingle berry I guess.
all the way up to clarion pa today not one time did I ever feel reasonable pressure on my upper hose and my lower half of the radiator stayed ice cold. outside air was in most cases like 44 degF.
im about clueless at the moment except for the task of finding the correct stat. I think its affecting my fuel economy as well, im only getting like 20 to 21mpg,, usually I do 24 dead on in hills and mountains.
my computer thinks its still a cold motor I guess
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 08, 2016, 09:38:33 PM
Buy this one: http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/stant-superstat-premium-thermostat-195-degrees-fahrenheit-45359/5653576-P?navigationPath=L1*14922|L2*15023|L3*15971
It is not fail safe but it will work fine. Give up on the fail safe thermostats ;)
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on February 08, 2016, 10:07:05 PM
I buy the cheapest ones available. Not sure I've had fail in less then 5 years.
Make sure it is a 192-195° stat. The computer has to see a minimum of 180° to run in open loop at all.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 08, 2016, 10:26:23 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;453768
Buy this one: http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/stant-superstat-premium-thermostat-195-degrees-fahrenheit-45359/5653576-P?navigationPath=L1*14922|L2*15023|L3*15971
It is not fail safe but it will work fine. Give up on the fail safe thermostats ;)
I have a big issue with advance,, its personal... and I almost posted a thread about it but it would end up being one of those threads that becomes word heavy. short and sweet, advance does not have lifetime parts warranty!,, point blank. I tried to take receipts from back as far as 1996 to advance and their computers wont allow me to use my receipt because their system wont go back that far. best part is , their warranty does not cover normal wear and tear. I got a .xls document from corp advance in Roanoke va showing all purchases I made yet their system only went back as far as 2001 showing I spent about 10k in parts across several vehicles , brought that to the local advance as a courtesy on my part to help them out before I made a large purchase. the whole facility / staff there told me that "advance doesn't give customers this information". basically all I wanted to do was buy about 1500$ in parts from advance and cash in on a couple tie rod ends, a steering rack, a water pump, a couple other items that came in around what I speculated to be about 300$ in stuff. I wanted to simply cash in on all the receipt collecting I did now that we are building chances car which is my white coug. I got totally rejected. I wanted a steering rack and they wanted to know if its defective.. I said its life lifetime and last i felt it , It did feel odd. They told me we dont cover normal wear and tear.
I continued to try to understand their view as an example I said "when I want an item like a water pump I have a choice to pay for a cheap or new more pricey unit. it was my understanding that im paying you a premium for a new unit so that when I get a free replacement , Ive paid something of a small insurance policy plus money it takes to get a brand new unit. You guys gamble on the idea that only 10% of the public will keep receipts or track this stuff so you win 90% of the time".. they told me no that's not the case.
autozone does cover normal wear and tear and has a real lifetime warranty. after 20years of trusting my local advance, collecting receipts, being organized and such I find I wasted all my time doing so.
I purchased this stat from autozone,, and if I have to I will get the stat from advance but I have reservations on their current business model lately.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 08, 2016, 10:37:46 PM
I suppose it boils down to one day I purchase brake pads and the ol' guy there "ernie" asked me,, "scott, you want the cheapy or good ones", I said I want the best pads. ernie said "well at least you wont ever have to buy them again, they're life time you know". I tried to return old pads and they didn't take them back because of normal wear and tear... that started the sour taste they left in my mouth a few years ago. I felt like there is no way you can "really" get a benefit from shopping at advance. since all the box parts stores are diving in the same vendor honey holes,, I find it for the time being better to stop going to advance all the way around, or as a last resort.
ive learned a lot about this stuff while getting screwed over.. I learned that when you decide to cash in on your lifetime warranty, the store takes the hit on their overall performance stats, and they have a vested interest in vetting each return. I get it, its business but, they know me by name and my shopping habits and loyalty, why not vet the consumers at the local level and make special judgment calls for long lifetime loyal customers like me,,,, well something about advance changed sometime a short while ago because they almost seem like a different kind of store anymore.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 09, 2016, 12:12:17 AM
You don't have to buy the thermostat at Advance. The point I'm trying to make is you need to buy a quality thermostat like a Stant or Motorcraft rated at 195°. DO NOT buy any thermostat with "Fail Safe" in the name or on the box. Those thermostats are junk and always pass coolant even when shut. If you don't want to go to Advance go to NAPA and get a 195° thermostat. Just please stay away from the "fail safe" thermostats.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on February 09, 2016, 03:38:12 AM
The car already bypasses coolant into the heater core as well.
To be honest, I've tried to blow my motors up by overheating and abusing them. These old 302's are pretty tough as long as ya keep oil inside of them.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 09, 2016, 09:11:05 AM
Quote from: jcassity;453767
was kidding up there tom , but like the way you say things.
Remember I AM from Greenbrier Co...
Quote from: jcassity;453767
my computer thinks its still a cold motor I guess
As soon as computer is seeing voltage change from o2 sensors it goes into closed loop, motor temp could only be 100-120*...
Quote from: jcassity;453773
I suppose it boils down to one day I purchase brake pads and the ol' guy there "ernie" asked me,, "scott, you want the cheapy or good ones", I said I want the best pads. ernie said "well at least you wont ever have to buy them again, they're life time you know". I tried to return old pads and they didn't take them back because of normal wear and tear... .
Yeah I heard that from my local Adv(got one within walking distance), I said "no worry, next time I come in whatever it is will be broken"...
And as stated on T-stat, buy a regular Stant or Motorcraft etc...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 10, 2016, 04:50:48 AM
yeah,, what I really need to do is find the time to find the right way to be able to walk in and get the right part.... as it is now, I am on the road so much and im giving up to easily. I'll check the napa up here in clarion pa for the right stat, then the dealership who told me to not come back,, maybe I will tell them I returning their card board.
on a lighter note though,, I did end up fixing a minor electrical gremlin while doing the stat change this past weekend. Someone once upon a time (tom) said to put your car on AM band then wiggle test wiring till you hear pop crackle noises in the speakers.... that worked perfect .
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 11, 2016, 03:35:37 AM
I have a non-failsafe tstat lying in the back seat now. hope to change soon.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on February 11, 2016, 07:14:58 AM
Hopefully it will fix your problem. Things like that drive me nuts till I figure them out.
I gotta figure out why my trip computer is reading goofy. I think it might be electrical or a bad unit. Maybe a vacuum leak to my recently replace map sensor? I drove 100 miles with the av mpg sitting at 11.1 but I could only get 5 gallons in my tank.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 13, 2016, 11:30:47 AM
Quote from: jcassity;453810
I have a non-failsafe tstat lying in the back seat now. hope to change soon.
Let us know how it goes.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 13, 2016, 12:14:15 PM
its going to happen tomorrow,,, cause today im not going outside for anything
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 14, 2016, 05:40:35 PM
Just a FYI, yesterday it was approx 28* so I started the truck to get some heat and when the temp gauge was near the point I know the stat opens, I kicked the blower on high(which I rarely ever do)... Well temp started falling, leveled off just below the O in normal and set there, not going any higher... I felt top of radiator at inlet, cold... The heater was cooling engine at idle... Once I started driving, temp came on up to middle of NORMAL where it generally runs...
Sooo, the radiator doesn't need to provide much cooling when temps are below freezing(maybe none at all if below zero)...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 20, 2016, 07:57:20 PM
FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!
finally
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on February 21, 2016, 12:10:44 AM
Sweet.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 21, 2016, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: jcassity;453942
FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!
finally
Awesome. Now no more fail-safe thermostats ;)
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 22, 2016, 07:39:48 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;453967
Awesome. Now no more fail-safe thermostats ;)
yes sir,, wont do that again..
I almost posted a thread "car putting out too much heat"
its doing very well and I felt like a normal human being driving up to PA today.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 22, 2016, 11:03:58 PM
Glad to hear you're warm again, you may get better fuel milage as well...
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 29, 2016, 11:22:31 PM
Yes gas mileage went back to normal again as you can see in the picture and the odometer just turned 300,000
I am missing about 20,000 miles from an intermittent instrument cluster flex print but the odometer says 300,000 now
I should have about 320 but who knows
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on February 29, 2016, 11:24:34 PM
Wow what a py picture
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on March 01, 2016, 12:58:56 AM
I miss the full digitl dash.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: jcassity on March 01, 2016, 09:18:31 PM
Yeah I like it
It's 26 miles per gallon
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on March 01, 2016, 11:00:17 PM
I haven't been able to get this cougar over 22 highway for some reason. It does 19 city. Doesn't seem to care where the timing is at or anything. I think I may have figured it out now though.
I have verified my trip computer is not reading even close to accurately. I filled my tank and drove 500 miles. It said 27 gallons used, could only put 17 gallons back in. That adds up to 29mpg roughly. It started randomly dropping from a fairly regular reading of 22mpg @ 75mph down to 6 mpg randomly and popping back and forth.
Gonna go over my spliced wires for the trip computer. Pretty sure its gonna be the fuel feed wire one since my trip computer mileage always matches my odometer trip. Either that or maybe it has something to do with the $40 auto zone map sensor I put in it. I might just swap the one off my dads 460 for a few weeks to see if there is any difference.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 02, 2016, 06:39:28 PM
Only 22 mpg highway? I regularly get 23-24 mpg out of my Thunderbird cruising at 75mph. That's with a non-lockup converter and 3.73 gears.....
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: Haystack on March 02, 2016, 06:47:15 PM
Exactly.
I haven't been super careful checking mileage as the odometer is off due to over sized tires and the gas guage doesn't work at all, so I've been guesstimating with the trip computer I added and found it to be very innacurate. I also need to redo the gas tank seals. When I broke the sending unit and got two bad fuel pumps in a row, I just threw it back together as quick as I could. It was raining and I was laying in gravel with glass shards on the side of the road and I was not in a good mood when it died on me. I also figured it would only be a few days and I'd slap another fuel sender in, but I haven't been able to source one locally. As long as the tank isn't full it doesn't leak, again making mileage almost impossible to calculate accurately.
Title: engine running too cool *solved- installed non failsafe tstat
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 02, 2016, 07:04:19 PM
Well I can say mine hasn't burned a drop of gas in -- uuuhhhh, almost three years...
When it ran it'd do low 26 at 60ish and 25 at 65-70... Lockup converter & 3.73...