Technical => Engine Swapping => Topic started by: ttfarms on September 02, 2015, 08:49:26 PM
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: ttfarms on September 02, 2015, 08:49:26 PM
Hey all. I'm new to sight and was hoping to get some info.
I have an 88' Turbo with a tired engine. Always planned on replacing with a carbureted 302 cid but would rather do a 5.0 FI out of an 89' or newer mustang. I know the engine will bolt in but wasn't sure how much wiring, if any, would match up. I figured on getting a donor mustang for all necessary parts/pieces !!
Also, what parts are needed to bolt the Turbo Coupe 5 spd to the 5.0 ?
I'm guessing one of you gearheads out there have mad this swap so I'd really appreciate any help with some or all the above.
I've always thought Ford should have made that combination available from the factory........but they didn't ask me, sooooo.........
Thanks for any help,
TTFARMS
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: crossboss on September 04, 2015, 09:24:35 PM
Welcome! Ford did make available the 5.0 HO in the '87-'88 Turbo Coupe body. This was a special order only "off highway" and came with no warranty. Cost? 27K. Btw, this topic has been discussed on this site before. As for your subject at hand, its best to get ALL your parts from a donor 5.0 car, including wiring, brackets and such. I do not recommend using the 4 cyl. T-5. Others may chime in for more intimate details on the swap. Have fun!
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: ttfarms on September 04, 2015, 10:15:26 PM
Thanks crossboss. I tried to find info on the sight but guess I need to dig deeper in the older posts. Just hoped to get web sights, potential problems addressed and odd ball parts gathered before I tear into it. I'll take all the help I can get. Don't want this to turn into on of those "long term" projects !!
Interesting about the "off highway" car. I'd never heard about it but I'll definitely do some research. Thanks
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2015, 09:13:05 AM
Check out reply #3 by dominator, it's probably 95% of what's necessary... If you want to keep all the TC systems it's not a simple swap... I used a '87 Bird 5.0 harness converted to mass air, no not best choice but it's what I had...
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 05, 2015, 12:33:32 PM
Quote from: crossboss;451061
Welcome! Ford did make available the 5.0 HO in the '87-'88 Turbo Coupe body. This was a special order only "off highway" and came with no warranty. Cost? 27K.
Do you have documentation to support this? I highly doubt these cars would be produced by Ford on the regular Thunderbird/Cougar assembly line but, if they actually existed, were instead put together by an outside vendor.
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: crossboss on September 05, 2015, 01:46:26 PM
thunder jet… Oh, boy here we go again…Yes, Ford did offer/sell the "off hiway" only 5.0HO T-Birds. I personally was going to order one in 1988..cost 27K. If you may recall (or not) this topic was discussed before. Bob "Bondo" Bondurant had several Dark Blue T-Birds at his driving school in Arizona at that time. Many magazine articles were done on his cars and how you can order one yourself. These cars were not advertised in the brochures, just like the current CJ Mustangs. They were sold only for off hiway use and came with no warranty. Upon delivery, you had to trailer it off the dealers lot. A bit more trivia thats really not known, '87-'88 Birds could have been specially ordered in the LX body with 5.0 HO engines, only with 4 speed auto transmissions. How do I know this? My mom special ordered one in 1987..we still own it today. Its a hell of a good car.
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2015, 02:20:41 PM
Quote from: crossboss;451068
thunder jet… Oh, boy here we go again…Yes, Ford did offer/sell the "off hiway" only 5.0HO T-Birds. I personally was going to order one in 1988..cost 27K. If you may recall (or not) this topic was discussed before. Bob "Bondo" Bondurant had several Dark Blue T-Birds at his driving school in Arizona at that time. Many magazine articles were done on his cars and how you can order one yourself. These cars were not advertised in the brochures, just like the current CJ Mustangs. They were sold only for off hiway use and came with no warranty. Upon delivery, you had to trailer it off the dealers lot. A bit more trivia thats really not known, '87-'88 Birds could have been specially ordered in the LX body with 5.0 HO engines, only with 4 speed auto transmissions. How do I know this? My mom special ordered one in 1987..we still own it today. Its a hell of a good car.
The Bondurant cars were modified, not built on assembly line ...
I'd sure like to see that sales contract or at least the VIN for engine code that proves it has a HO vs std 5.0...
Hot Rod tested a 1987 T-Bird and commented "it'd surely be nice with a HO", Ford flatly stated it wasn't going to happen...
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: crossboss on September 05, 2015, 02:29:32 PM
Yeh, Like I believe what Hot-Rod magazine says…I know, I worked on Hot-Rod TV. Bondos cars were modified versions for endurance road course track use by Jack Roush. The "production" versions (if you want to call them that) did not have the blue printed 5.0 HO engines, 5 lug wheels, roll bars, and such. Special ordered HO 5.0 engines DID come like I mentioned in the LX body with automatics only (no Turbo Coupe bodies), as these were already emission certified/crash tested in use on the same Fox platform, e.g.: Lincoln MK VII LSCs. Also, the 5.0 HO engines only had speed density, not mas air injection, just like the Lincoln's. Forgot to mention, Bill Elliott Ford offered a "special, limited production" 5.0 HO Cougars for sale in 1988.
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2015, 03:20:04 PM
Quote from: crossboss;451070
Yeh, Like I believe what Hot-Rod magazine says…I know, I worked on Hot-Rod TV. Bondos cars were modified versions for endurance road course track use by Jack Roush. The "production" versions (if you want to call them that) did not have the blue printed 5.0 HO engines, 5 lug wheels, roll bars, and such. Special ordered HO 5.0 engines DID come like I mentioned in the LX body with automatics only (no Turbo Coupe bodies), as these were already emission certified/crash tested in use on the same Fox platform, e.g.: Lincoln MK VII LSCs. Also, the 5.0 HO engines only had speed density, not mas air injection, just like the Lincoln's. Forgot to mention, Bill Elliott Ford offered a "special, limited production" 5.0 HO Cougars for sale in 1988.
I know you're full of shiznit now, Bill drove T-Birds, won the Winston Million in a T-Bird(1985), the Championship in 1988, and he sold Cougars??? As I said --- Bull shiznit...
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: ISTLCRUZ on September 05, 2015, 03:49:04 PM
:popcorn:
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: Ramos617 on September 05, 2015, 05:00:54 PM
:popcorn:
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 05, 2015, 05:28:26 PM
Quote from: crossboss;451070
Yeh, Like I believe what Hot-Rod magazine says…I know, I worked on Hot-Rod TV. Bondos cars were modified versions for endurance road course track use by Jack Roush. The "production" versions (if you want to call them that) did not have the blue printed 5.0 HO engines, 5 lug wheels, roll bars, and such. Special ordered HO 5.0 engines DID come like I mentioned in the LX body with automatics only (no Turbo Coupe bodies), as these were already emission certified/crash tested in use on the same Fox platform, e.g.: Lincoln MK VII LSCs. Also, the 5.0 HO engines only had speed density, not mas air injection, just like the Lincoln's. Forgot to mention, Bill Elliott Ford offered a "special, limited production" 5.0 HO Cougars for sale in 1988.
As a note all SEFI 5.0 HO V8s from 1986-88 were speed density, except California 5.0 Mustangs which got MAF in 1988. 1989 and up 5.0 Mustangs were MAF but the Lincoln Mark VII stayed speed density till the end of production in 1992.
As for the rest, including being able to order a LX from the factory with a 5.0 HO I need some proof, or I call BS as well.
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: thewestie on September 05, 2015, 09:01:04 PM
:popcorn:
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: crossboss on September 05, 2015, 09:32:26 PM
Turbocoupe5.0-- It amazes me the idiots on here. I am fully aware Bill Elliott raced Fords. Apparently, you have no clue when you say someone is "full of it" Do your research, and you will see that I am correct. Come out to California, and look at my moms car first hand..I will leave it at that, so you can make more of a fool of yourself.
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: crossboss on September 05, 2015, 10:04:31 PM
Here is the VIN on my moms 1987 Bird: 1FABP62M2HH158XXX. Now you tell me "I'm full of it"
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2015, 10:15:18 PM
Quote from: crossboss;451082
Turbocoupe5.0-- It amazes me the idiots on here. I am fully aware Bill Elliott raced Fords. Apparently, you have no clue when you say someone is "full of it" Do your research, and you will see that I am correct. Come out to California, and look at my moms car first hand..I will leave it at that, so you can make more of a fool of yourself.
Blah, Blah, Blah, without some proof on your end I ain't believing it happened... I followed Bill from '76 till middish '90s... Bill did sell '87-'88 replica T-Birds all with SO engines, those are documented but HO Cougars ?? Didn't happen...
You've offered ZERO proof, put up or shut up...
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: crossboss on September 05, 2015, 10:47:47 PM
Mr Big Mouth-- The Cougars were sold as a limited run, all were XR-7s, had 1987/88 Mustang GT wheels, 5.0 HO engines, and automatic trans missions. I personally have seen 3 examples. Have you ever actually spoke to Bill Elliott about his career, and his dealership? Not likely. You ever ordered cars from him? Again, not likely. I have met/done Television shoots with Bill many times…you? Not likely. Again, your just blowing out smoke. I have shown proof of my moms VIN number. Balls in your court...
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 06, 2015, 12:04:07 AM
Quote from: crossboss;451083
Here is the VIN on my moms 1987 Bird: 1FABP62M2HH158XXX. Now you tell me "I'm full of it"
1987 and up 5.0 HO VIN code is E. I'd love to see a Marti report on your mom's car. Only way I'd believe it left the factory with a 5.0 HO......
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 06, 2015, 12:06:04 AM
Quote from: crossboss;451085
Mr Big Mouth-- The Cougars were sold as a limited run, all were XR-7s, had 1987/88 Mustang GT wheels, 5.0 HO engines, and automatic trans missions. I personally have seen 3 examples. Have you ever actually spoke to Bill Elliott about his career, and his dealership? Not likely. You ever ordered cars from him? Again, not likely. I have met/done Television shoots with Bill many times…you? Not likely. Again, your just blowing out smoke. I have shown proof of my moms VIN number. Balls in your court...
http://www.coolcats.net/fox/1988.html
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: Ramos617 on September 06, 2015, 12:36:13 AM
^ nice link Is there any write ups like that for T-birds?
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 06, 2015, 12:27:37 PM
Quote from: crossboss;451085
Mr Big Mouth-- The Cougars were sold as a limited run, all were XR-7s, had 1987/88 Mustang GT wheels, 5.0 HO engines, and automatic trans missions. I personally have seen 3 examples. Have you ever actually spoke to Bill Elliott about his career, and his dealership? Not likely. You ever ordered cars from him? Again, not likely. I have met/done Television shoots with Bill many times…you? Not likely. Again, your just blowing out smoke. I have shown proof of my moms VIN number. Balls in your court...
Sorry I missed the VIN, had been up too long...
Now according to NICB there was never a M engine code for any '87 T-Bird, that'd mean it's a fabrication or been altered after after vehicle was built(and the second isn't legal)...
No the VIN I've listed probably isn't correct, something like one in a 100 chance but that is of no consequence, I picked a mid pack(closest to 500) VIN that matched the #2 as check digit.... The engine codes given are for ANY '87 LX regardless of consecutive six digits...
(http://s6.postimg.org/4x5c87zb5/LXvin.jpg)
(http://s6.postimg.org/trou2ak5d/LXvin1.jpg)
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: crossboss on September 06, 2015, 01:54:56 PM
Go to the year 1987, and look for all the classifications on VIN breakdowns, and you will see the engine code for "M" refers to 5.0 HO--special build, as in the case for my moms T-Bird. I was there when she special ordered her car in Aug. of 1986 at Galpin Ford, Sepulveda, Ca. (the largest Ford dealer) from our sales manager/friend (at that time) Virgil Kroug. Delivery was 4 weeks later. Virgil, is the one who also informed me of the "off highway" 5.0 HO Turbo Coupe special build cars. When he mentioned the price of 28K, I almost hit the floor and declined. Remember, 28K in '87/'88 was a lot of dough for a car, especially when you can't register it for street use. Also, those cars did not qualify for any financing, they had to be paid in full before ordering.
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 06, 2015, 06:10:49 PM
Well we're still being fed BS, if the consecutive VIN is 158xxx the car would not have been built to about March '87 or approx 3/8 the way through 1987 production... You're claiming it was ordered in Aug 1986 and delivery taken approx Sept... On a build that early, the six consecutive digits isn't going to be higher than maybe 105000-107500, should easily fall in the first 5000 to 7500 T-Birds produced for 1987...
Check out page 5 of the 1987 models, 156044 was built 03/87...
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: Ramos617 on September 06, 2015, 07:26:11 PM
Wouldn't the proof just be a legitimate picture of the Vin from the dash?
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 06, 2015, 10:16:28 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;451101
Well we're still being fed BS, if the consecutive VIN is 158xxx the car would not have been built to about March '87 or approx 3/8 the way through 1987 production... You're claiming it was ordered in Aug 1986 and delivery taken approx Sept... On a build that early, the six consecutive digits isn't going to be higher than maybe 105000-107500, should easily fall in the first 5000 to 7500 T-Birds produced for 1987...
Check out page 5 of the 1987 models, 156044 was built 03/87...
I'm going to have to agree here. My 88 Thunderbird was ordered on June 22, 1987. It was actually built on September 12, 1987. It was car number 104628.....
Quote from: Ramos617;451103
Wouldn't the proof just be a legitimate picture of the Vin from the dash?
Yeah that would prove everything. I would love to see a picture of that car's VIN.
If it was actually possible to order a Thunderbird with a 5.0 HO from the factory don't you think that someone else would have done it? After all these years another one would have turned up somewhere in the US. Another issue would be that the 5.0 HO engine would have had been a special delivery to the Lorain, OH assembly line as no car being built there used that particular engine. Plus Ford would have had sales literature somewhere that noted the option was available. If someone took delivery of an 87 Thunderbird with a 5.0 HO it sure as hell didn't leave the factory in that configuration......
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: My10-80 on September 06, 2015, 10:32:41 PM
:popcorn:
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: crossboss on September 06, 2015, 11:34:37 PM
Sorry, no BS here. My mom DID order the car in late Aug of 1986..The car is still in OEM condition, from the ORIGINAL owner. like I said, ignorance is bliss on here. Just because you guys have never seen a factory 5.0 HO T-Brid you think it never exists. When I go visit my mom (125 miles from me) I WILL take a pic of the dash VIN for all of you to eat crow. Im sure she still has the window sticker/paper work too..In the mean time watch what you say, you just might get what you ask for...
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 06, 2015, 11:58:39 PM
Quote from: crossboss;451116
In the mean time watch what you say, you just might get what you ask for...
Pass the popcorn please... :popcorn:
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: crossboss on September 07, 2015, 12:43:34 PM
Ok, I will have to admit I made an error on the dates. I spoke with my mom about her car. She ordered it in late March of 1987, and took delivery in early May of 1987. Her memory is sharp as a tack..she remembers this because she ordered it just before my parents went on a European cruise, and took delivery when they returned. When I am wrong, I will admit it..ok, you guys can beat me up on that one. However, the VIN number is absolutely correct.
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: fast Ed on September 07, 2015, 09:35:25 PM
"M" engine code in the VIN was used on 86 5.0L HO Mustangs, and also the Mark VII LSC through mid 87, when they still had the py E6SE swirl chamber heads, basically the 200 hp version of the HO, not the 87-up Mustang 225 hp version. "E" was the VIN code on 87-up 5.0L Mustangs and the later LSCs that got the better heads and matching pistons.
cheers Ed
Title: Turbo Engine Swap
Post by: ttfarms on September 07, 2015, 11:33:17 PM
Thanks TurboCoupe. I found dominator's reply. That's one helluva list !! For now, might do a quick freshening of the 4 cyl while I get the paint done, collect parts this winter and attempt the swap next summer.
I've got a 90' Super Coupe that needs head work, think I'll work on that first. I want to take my time and do the 88' right. I'd like for it to be a keeper........Maybe a 5.0 Coyote w/ Ford Racing harness !!!!