Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: Cougars 2 go on June 17, 2015, 06:24:56 PM
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Cougars 2 go on June 17, 2015, 06:24:56 PM
Back about 20 years ago or so, my fan clutch went up in my 87 3.8L Cougar. The odd part was the symptoms were backward to me. The engine temperature was fine at idle and low speeds but started to climb at higher speeds. But a replacement fan clutch fixed it. 20 years later, same symptoms. Sanity check: when these fail, does that seem logical?
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: kylesburrell on June 17, 2015, 09:22:42 PM
If you wanted to could grab an electric fan and fan controller. Then youd never have to worry about a fan clutch and you eliminate a mechanical load from the engine.
Fans: just grab one big enough to cover most of your radiator. Most of them come with plastic zip-tie-esque things to hold the fan to the radiator
Just an option for ya
-Kyle
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: ZondaC12 on June 17, 2015, 11:27:06 PM
It might depend on just how it fails...cruising at a constant speed, torque converter locked, in OD, the fan should be basically pointless. Add extra load of A/C, hard acceleration because racecar, hilly terrain etc then the thermal strip engages the clutch if needed. But at idle the fan might keep up with the shaft simply due to the viscosity of the fluid inside.
The only thing I know for sure is don't ever buy a non-thermal fan clutch. Absolutely useless, I'd like to know why they even exist as available for these cars...
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 17, 2015, 11:52:31 PM
Quote from: Cougars 2 go;448949
Back about 20 years ago or so, my fan clutch went up in my 87 3.8L Cougar. The odd part was the symptoms were backward to me. The engine temperature was fine at idle and low speeds but started to climb at higher speeds. But a replacement fan clutch fixed it. 20 years later, same symptoms. Sanity check: when these fail, does that seem logical?
I had a fan clutch fail on my Thunderbird. It would be fine cruising on the highway but stop and go traffic or idle would cause the temp to creep up. If you're replacing the clutch about the best one around is the Mustang SSP (police) fan clutch. That's what I run on my Thunderbird. They are discontinued and hard to find now however.
Your symptoms sound more like a clogged radiator to me.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 18, 2015, 12:51:40 AM
Most factory electric fans don't even come on once the car reaches about 40mph, and when i swapped in my taurus fan, it almost never came on over 25mph. The taurus fan was a super easy swap, but it basically requires a 3g alt upgrade and i burnt out two fan controllers, one was rated at 20amps, the other was rated at 35amps and the fan pulled a peak of 16 amps on start up and 11amps under constant high speed.
I am actually driving my car right now with NO electric or mechanical fan in 95* weather right now. It never overheats on the freeway, but i can't let it idle for more then about 10 minutes once its up to operating temps before it gets to the red.
If i shut my car off as i wait in a drive through or stop and go traffic, it also doesn't overheat and i can cruise ll day long at 25mph without the car getting to the half way mark.
My guess is also clogged radiator or bas thermostat. If its a bad thermostat, generally it will get up to operating temps very quickly and stay there at idle or slow speeds and load. The longer the can runs and more constant load on the engine, the higher the temps go imho.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: JeremyB on June 18, 2015, 07:10:10 PM
Quote from: Cougars 2 go;448949
Back about 20 years ago or so, my fan clutch went up in my 87 3.8L Cougar. The odd part was the symptoms were backward to me. The engine temperature was fine at idle and low speeds but started to climb at higher speeds. But a replacement fan clutch fixed it. 20 years later, same symptoms. Sanity check: when these fail, does that seem logical?
Makes no sense. The failure may have masked some other shortcoming of the system (clogged radiator, etc).
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: V8Demon on June 18, 2015, 07:26:11 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;448998
Makes no sense. The failure may have masked some other shortcoming of the system (clogged radiator, etc).
THIS.....
Looks as though Rockauto specs the same part #'s for the 3.8 and the 5.0
Wanna upgrade on the cheap without hunting for an SSP?
Hayden part #2783 or Imperial part #215130. It's a "severe duty" unit. They're spec'd for a 1991 Dodge Dakota 4WD with the 5.2 V8. Advance auto carries the Imperial brand. Both Imperial and Hayden are the same company. Should run under $60......
I put one on my Mark VII. Ran perfect in stop & go traffic on the dreaded Belt Parkway in Brooklyn last week.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: ZondaC12 on June 18, 2015, 11:36:20 PM
^^^Interesting!! I will have to grab one of those.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: V8Demon on June 19, 2015, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: Haystack;448966
The taurus fan was a super easy swap, but it basically requires a 3g alt upgrade and i burnt out two fan controllers, one was rated at 20amps, the other was rated at 35amps and the fan pulled a peak of 16 amps on start up and 11amps under constant high speed.
Is the fan you ran a single speed or double? Either way you may wanna check how you measured....
When I first read your statement it didn't click, but when I came back and read the latest post I re-read the thread and thought to myself "those readings seem low." Most people use/swap in a 75 or 85 amp relay on the controllers for these things from what I'm reading.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 19, 2015, 12:09:23 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;448999
THIS.....
Looks as though Rockauto specs the same part #'s for the 3.8 and the 5.0
Wanna upgrade on the cheap without hunting for an SSP?
Hayden part #2783 or Imperial part #215130. It's a "severe duty" unit. They're spec'd for a 1991 Dodge Dakota 4WD with the 5.2 V8. Advance auto carries the Imperial brand. Both Imperial and Hayden are the same company. Should run under $60......
I put one on my Mark VII. Ran perfect in stop & go traffic on the dreaded Belt Parkway in Brooklyn last week.
Cool. Whenever the SSP clutch in my Thunderbird s out I'll pick up one of those.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 19, 2015, 03:07:16 PM
V8 demon
It was a double speed, and i wired of up to only run on high.
I actually have quite a bit of sophisticated equipment designed to measure wattage amprage, peak loads ect. In my opinion, the fan controllers must all way overrated all the controllers.
Lets pretend a mechanical fan takes 1hp, that would be 736 watts. 736 divided by 12 is 60 something amps at 12v's. Electric motors are way more efficient. I have a few model airplanes that produce well over 800 watts and run on a 12.6v nominal system and have specialized equipment to measure loads.
I was very surprised how little power the fan itself took, and how little airflow was required to cool the car off. I have an airplane that weighs about a pound and puts out two pounds of thrust. This airplane uses 24 amps and uses right around 240 watts. The same equipment hooked up to my taurus single speed fan gave me a peak of 24 amps and a constant load of 16 amps, the low speed was 11 amps peak and 8 amps constant.
I find it funny i can buy a brushless pulse width modulation controller rated for 45 amps constant and 60 amps peak for $25 an use it for 5 years, yet a 20 amp fused 35 amp controller burns up under less load in about a month.
In my opinion, the ratings and requirements of all of these electric fans, taurus or otherwise, have been way over inflated by the manufactures.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: softtouch on June 19, 2015, 06:29:41 PM
Quote from: kylesburrell;448955
If you wanted to could grab an electric fan and fan controller. Then youd never have to worry about a fan clutch and you eliminate a mechanical load from the engine.
Fans: just grab one big enough to cover most of your radiator. Most of them come with plastic zip-tie-esque things to hold the fan to the radiator
Just an option for ya
-Kyle
The load is moved to the alternator. Nothing is free.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: jcassity on June 20, 2015, 06:53:56 AM
^ you beat me to it softtouch
Haystack, that vid v8 posted is a "save as" and a good teaching tool *except for the last few words spoken" by the guy doing the vid.
it does a decent job of connecting inrush to load,, two very big points to make out when dealing with motor loads. spec sheets on DC or AC breakers have curve characteristics, fancy speak for showing what the breaker is capable of withstanding due to its design, it can withstand & is warrantied to do so for the life of the breaker. We call this withstand specs.
some people refer to what the ammeter showed in the vid as initial spike or initial inrush.
if it were me an I had that fan the guy was using, and I had no spec sheets on the relay to tell me anything at all, then I would have saw 30A load and 100A inrush, average the middle ground then multiply x 1.2 to size my over current protection , then round up to the next reasonable / available size breaker and fuse for source power.
cheaper things rated at the same watts may not have withstand specs like more expensive things rated at the same watts..... so the devil is in the details.
another example of best cost vs best price,, I know you know this stuff but I was just wondering about your saying things like this being over rated.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: V8Demon on June 20, 2015, 05:09:35 PM
FWIW -- I've often wondered if there was any standardization in the testing done to get the rated CFM of these fans.
Numerous reports for the Taurus fan claim 3000 cfm and 4000cfm or mor for the Mark VIII fan. I'v also seen reports that debunk those numbers and claim much less (although there are far fewer of these).
The reason I ask is due to this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-8c607-msvt/overview/year/2013/make/ford/model/mustang (http://smhttp.31006.nexcesscdn.net/80CDA9/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/84ee508ef3aa2a40e7cac75be1747f5a/m/-/m-8c607-msvt_1.jpg)
Quote
Maximum Fan CFM:3,286 cfm Fan Quantity:Single Number of Blades:7 blades Blade Material:Plastic Blade Color:Black Shroud Color:Black Shroud Material:Plastic Air Conditioning Relay Included:No Mounting Brackets Included:Yes Mounting Hardware Included:No
This is the stock unit that Ford installs in the 2013-14 GT500. Note the CFM rating, which one can guess comes straight from Ford. It's a drop in replacement on all S197 chassis Mustangs. Ford engineered this thing and figured it to flow well enough on a car with 660+ crank HP that they KNEW people were going to upgrade.
I wonder how large the shroud is on this in relation to the Taurus and Mark VIII setups?
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: jcassity on June 20, 2015, 08:29:22 PM
fans are rated and tested with them placed into a tubular front / rear adaptor , same diameter suction as exhaust.
the ration of air moving in to the exhaust with no obstructions,,
anytime air is pushed into an area like a 12'' x 24'' duct work ,, and there is a bend,, this is called static loss. Each time the air has to turn is a static pressure loss.
If you have a box fan at home and you take a piece of plywood and put it in the exhaust path, you can "hear" the motor react. same goes for blocking the intake side of the box fan.
that's all these are is box fans.... now with the rad core & ac core up front restricting air,, and that restricted air is further bouncing back from hitting the motor,,, I would guess real "installed" cfm is 50% name plate rating.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 21, 2015, 01:47:08 AM
Lets pretend we have a single 17" fan blade. We only need the air to move about 25mph through the radiator to adequately cool it, in virtually any situation. A 10-15mph breeze isn't uncommon, and your car almost never sits. It really, really shouldn't use much of any power to cool down a stock setup.
I am really, really tempted to guy my taurus fan shroud, replace it with a $20 radio controlled brushless motor, throw a $15 controller at it, gut the thermal probe or find one with a 5v reference and then just hook that up to the "throttle" input to the speed control, throw a 16 or 17" prop on it and forget about it.
I understand what a peak load is, and i was actually really worried about being able to use a fan controller that would be adequate. I planned on sourcing a volvo relay setup but just couldn't find any right away and figured id try the $20 fan controller.
I can guarantee that the fan doesn't use anywhere near 100amp on start up. I tested it with a 160 amp peak, 120 amp continuous rated battery and a 100 amp volt/watt meter. It pulled 24 amps on high speed from a dead stop. If i ran the low speed first, it would hit 11, settle down to 8 amps, then when i switched it over to high speed it hit 16 amps.
If you really were getting 100 amp spikes every time you turned your fan on, it would chew up a 8 gauge wire. So why did ford use a 6 gauge wire on a 130 amp alt, then use 12 and 10 gauge wire for the fan motor?
My opinion, the guys volt meter in the video couldn't handle the instant load of the fan, mixed it out and then got an artificially high reading. Look at how ridiculously small that wire is. Looks like he pulled the end off of an alligator clip.
In my opinion, he is heating up the wire, increasing the resistance of the wire and raising both amp load and dropping voltage, which would cause a high spiked reading until the fan reached a certain speed, and then eventually dropping amprage as the fan started to run up to speed.
When i see a digital read out, which won't spike higher then the actual reading and at least a 10 gauge wire, then yeah, id say the guy was onto something.
Playing with just different sized extension cables that I've built for my model airplanes can more then double the amperage of the system when you go to an undersized cable. When you increase the size of the cable, your amp draw goes down, as do the peak loads and voltage drops. The ideal setup is when your voltage no longer sags any more then a smaller cable. Then you will see virtually no benefit from a larger sized wire.
One thing that is quite common on model airplanes is trying to hit the highest spiked reading so you can brag about how much power your system uses.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: V8Demon on June 21, 2015, 02:10:10 AM
That meter is doing exactly what it's supposed to..... Measure in-rush....
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 21, 2015, 02:49:14 AM
And ill bet the voltage drops to near zero when it does so.
Lets pretend you have a 200 watt fan. Voltage x amperage= watts. So 200 watts / 12 volts gives you 16.66 amps. Now lets say the fan is still drawing 200 watts and voltage drops to 6 volts, now your amprage is gonna be 33 amps. So now lets say voltage drops to 2 volts, now you have 100 amps, pegging the meter. As the fan spins up, your amprage drops and so your voltage raises, even though the fan is using about thru same amount of power.
The only way i can see getting an accurate reading with so small of a wire is if the shunt is running to the main power feed for the fan, and the tiny wire we see hitting the terminal is only tripping a relay. The starter on your car doesn't use 100 amps, why would a tiny fan that's barely moving air do the same?
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 21, 2015, 03:05:45 AM
And ill bet the voltage drops to near zero when it does so.
Lets pretend you have a 200 watt fan. Voltage x amperage= watts. So 200 watts / 12 volts gives you 16.66 amps. Now lets say the fan is still drawing 200 watts and voltage drops to 6 volts, now your amprage is gonna be 33 amps. So now lets say voltage drops to 2 volts, now you have 100 amps, pegging the meter. As the fan spins up, your amprage drops and so your voltage raises, even though the fan is using about thru same amount of power.
The only way i can see getting an accurate reading with so small of a wire is if the shut is running to the main power feed for the fan, and the tiny wire we see hitting the terminal is only tripping a relay. The starter on your car doesn't use 100 amps, why would a tiny fan that's barely moving air do the same?
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 21, 2015, 03:09:34 AM
Im an idiot, he is triggering it with the ac, through a relay.
I still have a hard time believing it could actually pull 100 amps, but then again, my constant load numbers are half on my double speed what his are and i still burned up a 35 amp controller, without burning up either 20 amp fuse on high and low sides.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: jcassity on June 21, 2015, 08:45:24 AM
car makers use an insulation rated for temps in Celsius pulled from tables that I have not ever seen. they are not req'd to follow any NFPA standards so who knows. using the 90degC table as a ref, the 6awg is good up to 105Amps,, #10 is good to 55amps. using multiple thin hairs of copper called "flex" or "FX" can get you even more amperage vs solid think strands twisted around in one jacket called "stranded" or "STR". OEM alternator wiring is STR wiring including the big yellow or browns entering the ignition switch. the battery cable + or - side would be considered FX wiring.
one day I would like to see the same test done on the brushless motors you mention,, that would be interesting to compare. Tests like these seem like there isn't any way around using buttstuffog equipment though and that stuff is getting harder and harder to find each and everyday.
if they had to follow nfpa, then they would have to follow ambient temperature correction factors. example, an Electrician must de-rate a wires capability by 58% if it is going to be inside a space that it is known that space will be from 141-158degF.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: V8Demon on June 21, 2015, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: jcassity;449065
one day I would like to see the same test done on the brushless motors you mention,, that would be interesting to compare. Tests like these seem like there isn't any way around using buttstuffog equipment though and that stuff is getting harder and harder to find each and everyday.
THIS.
I need to find what Ford rates the stock fan in my Mustang at. The stock cooling system is up to the task of the blower and other mods I've done in 100 degree heat while driving. I do wonder how much faster it would bring temps down between runs at the track if at all by installing the '13-14 GT500 fan and rad......
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 21, 2015, 08:08:34 PM
I've been doing some thinking on this, and i forgot that most model airplane speed controls have a soft start function it is designed specifically to prevent in rush. It can be disable or programmed out, but it cm cause other problems, like the instant torque and rotational forces on the small air frame.
This is one of my videos from an argument i had with someone on a model airplane forum about if a plane could fly with the prop on backwards.
The digital display reads voltage, voltage drop, amprage peaks, mah used (1000mah = 1 amp hour) as well as wattage and instant wattage. This video is my smallest model airplane, it is rated at 240 watts and 19 amps maximum power. I have several others that run on higher then 3 cells (12.6 charged, 11.1 volts nominal) and have one that puts out about 11lbs of thrust and weighs 3.5 pounds with a peak level of 836 watts.
The rating of the batteries, size of prop, style of speed control, humidity and altitude will all effect numbers. Generally for an actually laboratory test, you would also have one measurement of thrust, which is usually just a fish scale that you hand to motor or plane off of. Due to my elevation (4500ft or so) , my numbers are lower then most other peoples due to a lower air density. I also have a habit of way overpowering my stuff and using the maximum or over maximum recommended parts.
That little yellow airplane weighs about 16 oz and produces about 38oz of thrust with a pitch speed (prop air speed) of about 57mph, when the prop is on the right way.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: jcassity on June 21, 2015, 09:13:45 PM
well,, all I know is work is work and watts is watts... till the magic cure is found then at the end of the day spec sheets can be swagged one way or the other to suit whom it benefits.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: JeremyB on June 23, 2015, 12:21:28 PM
Quote from: softtouch;449029
The load is moved to the alternator. Nothing is free.
True, but overall, the electric fan is more efficient.
A clutch fan is near 100% efficient when clutched, but not nearly as much when it's decoupled since there are a lot of losses from the fluid being sheared to make the blades move (think torque converter). An electric fan is probably somewhere around 45% efficient, assuming 50% alternator and 90% motor efficiencies.
However, an electric fan only runs when needed (at extended idle, etc) whereas the clutch fan is always moving air and using energy.
Quote from: V8Demon;449043
FWIW -- I've often wondered if there was any standardization in the testing done to get the rated CFM of these fans.
Numerous reports for the Taurus fan claim 3000 cfm and 4000cfm or mor for the Mark VIII fan. I'v also seen reports that debunk those numbers and claim much less (although there are far fewer of these).
The reason I ask is due to this:
This is the stock unit that Ford installs in the 2013-14 GT500. Note the CFM rating, which one can guess comes straight from Ford. It's a drop in replacement on all S197 chassis Mustangs. Ford engineered this thing and figured it to flow well enough on a car with 660+ crank HP that they KNEW people were going to upgrade.
I wonder how large the shroud is on this in relation to the Taurus and Mark VIII setups?
Fan cfm is pretty much related to blade diameter and power. Since area is related to radius^2, larger diameter fans will easily outflow smaller one given the same power.
For the fan you've referenced, what is the fan blade diameter and how many amps does it pull. That will give you the best idea of how it compares with the MN-12/Mark VIII and Taurus fan.
Most non OEM fan companies vastly overrate their fans. The 'Black Magic' fan was one of the most popular ones for Mustangs. A 15" fan that pulls 18A and claims 3300 cfm? lol. Unpossible. Look at Spal's website if you want to see realistic cfm numbers. They also chart cfm vs pressure, where the blade design really comes into play. https://webstore.spalusa.com/en-us/productlist/0118/products/fans/fans+-+high+performance.aspx One example, they have a 16" fan that pulls 3300 cfm @26A. https://webstore.spalusa.com/content/files/content/PDF/30102803_SPEC.pdf
Delta Current Control old website has a great page showing how to calculate fan cfm. https://web.archive.org/web/20061212052018/http://www.dccontrol.com/ (Click the right arrow until it gets to "Fan Selection") Getting the actual plugin to work can be a pain, but you can manually create a spreadsheet if you want to calculate it yourself.
Also, high quality fans such as the Taurus and MN-12 fan have an inrush current that is 3X-4X greater than the continuous current. So, you can have a 100A inrush for the Taurus/MN-12 fans. It doesn't fry wiring because it is a very short transient. The A/C compressor for my house has a LRA (Locked Rotor Amps) of >100, but a continuous rating of ~25A. The wiring is sized for the continuous rating.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 23, 2015, 04:01:33 PM
There are too many variables in fan design to have any idea how many cfm they might be able to flow, and each one would flow differently installed.
How many blades are there? How fast does it spin? How wide are the fan blades, and what shape is the air foil of the blade?
Air does some very interesting things when you cram it in little box.
One reason why i brought up the blade size and shape is because a different brand propellerwith the same size and pitch might be very, very different as far s efficiencies, thrust and air speed goes.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: JeremyB on June 23, 2015, 04:45:05 PM
Blade efficiency will vary, but not by a massive amount. Since you are already have blade diameter and power usage, the only other variable is blade efficiency, which is wrapped up by rpm, # of blades, blade design, etc.
Look at spal.com and you'll see how well you can predict flow given blade diameter and power, at least at 0" H2O.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 23, 2015, 07:49:41 PM
I decided to check the inrush with my electric fan. On high speed, i got 36.6amps and 24 amp on high. Low speed was actually 16 amps and 11 amps after it settled.
My fan controller was also rated for 40 amps and did not blow either 20 amp fuse on high or low side. However, i was running the fan at 24 amps continuous, where i remembered it being lower.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: JeremyB on June 23, 2015, 08:00:32 PM
Quote from: Haystack;449133
I decided to check the inrush with my electric fan. On high speed, i got 36.6amps and 24 amp on high. Low speed was actually 16 amps and 11 amps after it settled.
What are you using to measure in-rush current? What is the refresh rate on it?
What fan are you measuring?
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 23, 2015, 08:35:18 PM
A digital watt meter, no idea the refresh rate, but it stores all peak values and you can view them individually. I can guarantee the refresh rate is faster then the 100-60 amp drop in the earlier video. It must be pretty fast, because on my model airplanes i can see wattage peaks in real time, as fast as i can move the sticks on my transmitter
I am measuring a dual speed fan off of a ford taurus. When i bought if, my research showed that this was a better fan then the single speed/ mark7 fan.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 23, 2015, 11:23:56 PM
I found out after i reused the 40 amp relay and wired it in so that the fan was always on, that the fuse holder was bad on the old controller. For now its wires up with a 30 amp fuse feeding the relay. I will put a toggle switch in tomorrow so that the fan doesn't have to run continuously on startup and freeway speeds. Also, the watt meter refreshed once every 20ms according to specs the box came in.
The old controller might still be functioning with just the bad connection on the fuse holder. Not sure if i am going to try to replace or rebuild it or not.
Interestingly, the fan on bench test laying flat on a table pulled 16 amp peak and 11 continuous. Wired up with the car running, it pulled 20 amps peak and 18 amps continuous. Not sure if this is from the 14.2 volts with the car running or because of additional load from pulling it through the radiator. You'd think laying flat on a table would pull more peak, but whatever i guess.
The low speed was enough to take the car from overheating to the n in norm in less then 1 minute while it was 95 degrees parked and idling, just for reference. I doubt ill hook up the high speed, as the low speed seems to be more then adequate.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on June 24, 2015, 07:12:57 AM
I use a single fan from a V6 Fusion. I remove the controller and used 2 5-pin relays and a cooling fan resistor from a 2000ish mustang to make it dual speed. I trigger the low speed from the AC compressor, and high speed from a 207 degree fan switch that I drilled and tapped for in the top of the coolant tube (5.0L) manifold. Fused at 60 per the Fusion fans original wiring. I find fan controllers to be unreliable, and figured I could just build my own. Somewhere on the board I have a diagram.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: mcb82gt on June 24, 2015, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;449154
I use a single fan from a V6 Fusion. I remove the controller and used 2 5-pin relays and a cooling fan resistor from a 2000ish mustang to make it dual speed. I trigger the low speed from the AC compressor, and high speed from a 207 degree fan switch that I drilled and tapped for in the top of the coolant tube (5.0L) manifold. Fused at 60 per the Fusion fans original wiring. I find fan controllers to be unreliable, and figured I could just build my own. Somewhere on the board I have a diagram.
post it if you can find it. I severely lack electrical skills.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on June 24, 2015, 06:50:12 PM
Found an interesting chart comparing the "dual speed mark 8 fan" and spal fans. Apparently the .5 range is about the extra effort added when pulled through a radiator.
Another thing to note, if you are using both a high and low speed, you get virtually no inrush at all since the fan will already be running on low.some posts i read show that there is no surge higher then the constant high speed, other people say it uses 3-5 more amps. I've also found out that there is more then 15 different single motored electric fans between volvos, tauri, mn-12 and Mark 8 fans.
Most of the information I've found uses a progressive speed fan that was designed to use pulse width modulation to vary speed, but was instead supplied with direct voltage through a controller or relay, leading to significantly higher inrush then designed.
In my honest opinion, the amp surge or inrush on startup has been greatly exaggerated. I simply do not believe that ford would use a 14 gauge wire to feed a fan with 100 amp spikes. I think that this is mainly caused by people only using the high speed rather then wiring up both high and low as a whole.
I still haven't gotten around to wiring in a push button or toggle switch on my car, but i will in the next little bit. The car currently will not get over the n in normal. Today i idled in a parkinglot for 20 minutes after driving for 25 minutes at 75mph. The temperature was about 98 degrees according to the weather man, but i could see it being slightly warmer or cooler.
With the toggle switch wired up, i think it will help by not running the fan continuously. I am curious how long the 14 gauge wire and 40 amp relay will last.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: JeremyB on June 25, 2015, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: Haystack;449188
Found an interesting chart comparing the "dual speed mark 8 fan" and spal fans. Apparently the .5 range is about the extra effort added when pulled through a radiator.
Another thing to note, if you are using both a high and low speed, you get virtually no inrush at all since the fan will already be running on low.some posts i read show that there is no surge higher then the constant high speed, other people say it uses 3-5 more amps. I've also found out that there is more then 15 different single motored electric fans between volvos, tauri, mn-12 and Mark 8 fans.
Most of the information I've found uses a progressive speed fan that was designed to use pulse width modulation to vary speed, but was instead supplied with direct voltage through a controller or relay, leading to significantly higher inrush then designed.
In my honest opinion, the amp surge or inrush on startup has been greatly exaggerated. I simply do not believe that ford would use a 14 gauge wire to feed a fan with 100 amp spikes. I think that this is mainly caused by people only using the high speed rather then wiring up both high and low as a whole.
I still haven't gotten around to wiring in a push button or toggle switch on my car, but i will in the next little bit. The car currently will not get over the n in normal. Today i idled in a parkinglot for 20 minutes after driving for 25 minutes at 75mph. The temperature was about 98 degrees according to the weather man, but i could see it being slightly warmer or cooler.
With the toggle switch wired up, i think it will help by not running the fan continuously. I am curious how long the 14 gauge wire and 40 amp relay will last.
The Spal dual fan data in that chart matches the data off of Spal's site, so that confirms it is good. However, the actual "MKVIII" fan model he tested isn't specified. Given that it had two speed, he probably had an MN-12 fan, not a Mark VIII fan. A lot of people confuse the two. How much (if any) does a Mark VII fan blow than the MN-12? Who knows?! You'd think somebody would have nailed it down by now.
I agree on your wiring comments. I can't think of any application where the fan is switched to high from a dead stop.
I've seen multiple sources say the Taurus fan draws ~30A on high. Your equipment says 16A?
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: jcassity on June 25, 2015, 05:50:09 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;449197
I agree on your wiring comments. I can't think of any application where the fan is switched to high from a dead stop.
?
I can,, hard wired toggle switch without controller. that should be the engineered baseline,, not soft start applications. Ask UL if they will use the soft start to smoke check the fan,,, LOL or I mean start up the fan. they wont include any relays or soft start gear until after they test the fan as an isolated unit because the controller will likely be a separate part. oh wait,, that's right, it doesn't have to be UL listed but some chose to do so for reputation purposes.
"if its possible" the fan could fail in such a way that it start up in high,, then be assured UL is going to make sure thats one of their tests.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 25, 2015, 06:28:44 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;449197
The Spal dual fan data in that chart matches the data off of Spal's site, so that confirms it is good. However, the actual "MKVIII" fan model he tested isn't specified. Given that it had two speed, he probably had an MN-12 fan, not a Mark VIII fan. A lot of people confuse the two. How much (if any) does a Mark VII fan blow than the MN-12? Who knows?! You'd think somebody would have nailed it down by now.
I agree on your wiring comments. I can't think of any application where the fan is switched to high from a dead stop.
I've seen multiple sources say the Taurus fan draws ~30A on high. Your equipment says 16A?
As installed on my radiator with 14.2 volts i had 20 amp peak and 18 amp continuous on low. I did not hook up the high side, but i did test it from a dead stop. It pulls a maximum of 36.6 amps from a dead stop and settles down quickly to around 24 amps continuous.
The same fan motor was used on volvos, tauri and mn-12 cars, all with different fan shrouds and blades. There are even different motors between 3.0 and 3.8 taurus motors. From what I've read, the actual "single speed" fans actually use pulse width modulation to regulate speeds based on temperatures, when controlled by the ecm. There was also two different motors for the Mark 8's depending on year, but the fan shroud looks the same between them.
Some controllers automatically turn on both high and low speeds when ac is used. I guess if you left your ac on, when you restarted the car it could actually give you the maximum peak.
Unless someone actually goes through the effort of actually testing each individual fan and motor, i doubt we will ever know which one is actually best or what the actual real world load values are, as installed. I can only comment on my particular fan.
Even still, i consider 18 amps continuous on low and 24 amps continuous on high with a maximum peak of 36 amps to be reasonable. I might try to wire up another relay for the high side and maybe even try to build my own "controller" like foes diagram using an oem sensor to trigger the relays.
My sugar is either going to need some substantial work to keep it on the road and needs alot of work. Ill be either replacing or repairing it over the winter when the plate expires. For now i just need a setup to get me by through the summer. Most of my driving is indeed from a cold start to freeway speeds until my destination is reached. This makes up 90% of my driving and i can actually survive the summer with no radiator fan at all if this 40 amp relay i pulled out of my burned up controller fails. For now i will just enjoy warm restarts and city driving while its working.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 25, 2015, 06:52:22 PM
Also, on bench testing i was using a 2.2 ah battery with the fan laying flat on the table. The voltage dropped from 12.4 to about 12 volts under peak start ups. My little 4 ounce battery is rated at 55 amps continuous and 66 amps peak for 30 seconds. Its an older battery that gets abused regularly and hooked to a car battery you might actually get higher then the 16 amp peak and 11 amp continuous, but i doubt you would see more then an amp or twos worth of difference. These little lithium polymer batterys have a virtually flat discharge curve down to about 9 volts.
When these batteries were new, i pulled over 450 watts through them with only .2-.3 volts of sag. Compared to the 18 amps i measured as installed in the car, you can see that i am actually pulling more power through my model airplane then this radiator fan uses, as you can see in the YouTube video i posted earlier.
If i was to redo everything again, id just pull a model airplane motor and speed control for $40 or so and hook it up with a 5v reference temperature probe to the throttle input and call it a day. One motor I've been wanting is a 260kv motor designed for 15-17" props for endurance quad copters. At a cost of $18 and a peak amprage of 7.9 amps on 11.1 volts, there is no doubt in my mind that it would outperform any commercially available radiator fan in existence.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 25, 2015, 10:42:33 PM
I read somewhere about using a Volvo controller on the Taurus/MK-III fans, but at moment am clueless on the model details...
Also a way of providing a soft start is use a high wattage lamp in series with low on motor, can use the relay to shunt the lamp circuit thus providing full voltage... With motor already spinning, Hi speed start current will be similar to run...
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on June 26, 2015, 01:08:07 AM
The volvo controller can be had from several different 90's and early 2000's models. It is essentially two relays and fuses built up, very similarly to foes diagram. You can upgrade the relays on the controller since it uses the regular Bosch style relays. Certain volvos even use the same fan motor and plugs, meaning it would almost be a plug and play setup.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on June 26, 2015, 07:24:18 AM
I know a little bit about UL testing from an Engineer friend of mine, J. They'd test with a hard start at 120v while submerged in salc00cher at a concentration that more closely resembles brine after having vibrated and repeatedly dropped it from 12 feet onto concrete and driving over it with a convoy of beer trucks. And they'd expect it to still work.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Cougars 2 go on July 24, 2015, 03:12:52 PM
Thanks for all of the input, suggestions, ideas etc. I'll reply to this thread when I get it sorted. This is a rare climate in the car scene.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Haystack on July 24, 2015, 05:25:08 PM
With my cheap 40 amp relay and the fan only running on low, the cooling has been flawless. I actually did a 2 hr canyon drive today. At the peak i could barely accelerate without spinning the rear tires it was so steep. Car never got above the 1/2 way point.
I am tempted to get a triple position switch and just wire up another 40 amp relay selectable from the toggle switch. All and all, i do miss Tue fan controller. Upon further inspection, neither unit actually died, it just had bad crimp connections on the fuse connections.
Title: Fan Clutch
Post by: Bob on July 24, 2015, 07:03:17 PM
I've had my delta current control fk-35 for about 10-12 years works perfect!