Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 10, 2014, 05:09:31 PM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 10, 2014, 05:09:31 PM
Ok so I just replaced the ignition module in the distributor now its running really really rich that its stalling out I've replaced the map an idle air sensors an I'm lost any ideas on what could be my proplem oh an I have new injectors an new fuel pressure regulator car was running great till I changed The ignition module in the distributor??? Help please
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 10, 2014, 10:22:19 PM
Post by: Haystack on February 10, 2014, 10:22:19 PM
Run codes.
fuel on a sd setup is basically controlled by map sensor and o2's. if you have a vacuum leak, it will run rich.
fuel on a sd setup is basically controlled by map sensor and o2's. if you have a vacuum leak, it will run rich.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 10, 2014, 10:35:46 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 10, 2014, 10:35:46 PM
Quote from: Haystack;428731
Run codes.
fuel on a sd setup is basically controlled by map sensor and o2's. if you have a vacuum leak, it will run rich.
+1
Also I'm guessing you pulled the distributor to change the pip? If so and the problem didn't start till you messed with the distributor than it's probably a timing issue. Check to make sure you put the distributor back in the proper orientation.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 11, 2014, 01:37:17 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 11, 2014, 01:37:17 AM
Replaced map already an timeinv is fine i can disconnect vacuum lines off intake an car rpm will pick up and run better like its starving for air I'm lost after replceing PIP car ran great for a few weeks then one morning on way home from work I didn't know if I was going to make it home car didn't want to idle an barely wanted to run at all
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 11, 2014, 01:54:45 AM
Post by: Haystack on February 11, 2014, 01:54:45 AM
I hate to say it, but something is broken. if you don't want to fix it, just say so. otherwise, id think about running codes. but it doesn't bother me if you don't fix it.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 11, 2014, 08:06:46 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 11, 2014, 08:06:46 AM
Yea I want to fix it I wouldn't have posted this thread if I didn't want to fix it
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: jcassity on February 11, 2014, 09:19:11 AM
Post by: jcassity on February 11, 2014, 09:19:11 AM
maybe , just maybe your motor movement walked a vac line off the intake.,,
just a thought.
pull codes with a paperclip.,, see diy link below.
i am not confident in aftermarket PIP or aka~ pick up module or aka~hull effect module.
when you set the timing, with the car off your suppose to remove the jumper connector at the dizzy (little black two wire jumper with the yellow wires)
now you start the car and set the base timing.
shut car off
plug jumper back in
start car and let it learn then shut down.
start car and let it learn again,, then start messing with the fine adjust idle
if you didnt fool with the jumper during timing adjustments, at least this helps and you can do it right... just speculating so let us know.
just a thought.
pull codes with a paperclip.,, see diy link below.
i am not confident in aftermarket PIP or aka~ pick up module or aka~hull effect module.
when you set the timing, with the car off your suppose to remove the jumper connector at the dizzy (little black two wire jumper with the yellow wires)
now you start the car and set the base timing.
shut car off
plug jumper back in
start car and let it learn then shut down.
start car and let it learn again,, then start messing with the fine adjust idle
if you didnt fool with the jumper during timing adjustments, at least this helps and you can do it right... just speculating so let us know.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 11, 2014, 04:00:42 PM
Post by: Haystack on February 11, 2014, 04:00:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QSiS6wf7oU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
seriously, it takes less then 2 minutes. first time running codes on my 87.
I am about 95% sure.your missing a vacuum line, have a bad gasket or missing something. really, if you had good vacuum only to the map sensor, and it didn't idle high, you shouldn't have any problems.
In the off change that your timing is off, the computer will tell you.
Like I said, your car. I don't care if.it gets fixed.
seriously, it takes less then 2 minutes. first time running codes on my 87.
I am about 95% sure.your missing a vacuum line, have a bad gasket or missing something. really, if you had good vacuum only to the map sensor, and it didn't idle high, you shouldn't have any problems.
In the off change that your timing is off, the computer will tell you.
Like I said, your car. I don't care if.it gets fixed.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 17, 2014, 08:11:15 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 17, 2014, 08:11:15 AM
Sry its been so long been working a lot lately going to pull codes this weekend an get back with y'all then an thanks for everyone's help an ideas hopefully I can get the bird running this weekend really miss driving the ole bird
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 17, 2014, 09:09:04 PM
Post by: Haystack on February 17, 2014, 09:09:04 PM
My timing was way off on my car and it didn't pull any codes, just so you know.
Run your codes and see what pops up, and let us know. we are all here to help. good luck.
Run your codes and see what pops up, and let us know. we are all here to help. good luck.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 21, 2014, 10:34:51 PM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 21, 2014, 10:34:51 PM
Thanks going to pull codes on Sunday morning going to try my best to get the car running right if it takes all day
And a couple quick questions
Is there a thread about removing (DIY) the smog pump
An whats the lb of vac specs for these car or is there a thread for that to thanks to everyone for there help will have codes to post on Sunday
And a couple quick questions
Is there a thread about removing (DIY) the smog pump
An whats the lb of vac specs for these car or is there a thread for that to thanks to everyone for there help will have codes to post on Sunday
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: jcassity on February 23, 2014, 09:24:36 AM
Post by: jcassity on February 23, 2014, 09:24:36 AM
I wouldnt remove the smog,, jsut short belt it and be done.
yes....
cap off the two vac lines that go to the two individual round vac actuators and spare them back.
remove the smog tube from the passanger exhaust, shove a bolt and jbweld and clamp down there
along the rear of your heads there is a tube that transitions around the pass side engine bay, cap that off with something/plug it up.
remove belt
undo hose clamps for smog plumbing
remove the stuff now free
unbolt smog pump unit from the engine
now you can get to your pass spark plugs easier~!
leaving the vac lines and smog solenoids behind the strut tower still in the game will trick screw the eec in thinking the system is still there.
call me if you have trouble.
i just short belted mine and kept the whole system.
with the pully riding on a shaft that has a bronze bearing / bushing.... once upon a time i couldnt keep a belt on my old 3.8L.
finally found out that after the engine was warm,, the smog pully was binding up and throwing my belt.
imagine not knowing where to start knowing your belts wont stay on,, and how much troubleshooting it took to finally figure this out~!!
this plus one other problem caused me to find this board for what feels like amost a lifetime ago.
yes....
cap off the two vac lines that go to the two individual round vac actuators and spare them back.
remove the smog tube from the passanger exhaust, shove a bolt and jbweld and clamp down there
along the rear of your heads there is a tube that transitions around the pass side engine bay, cap that off with something/plug it up.
remove belt
undo hose clamps for smog plumbing
remove the stuff now free
unbolt smog pump unit from the engine
now you can get to your pass spark plugs easier~!
leaving the vac lines and smog solenoids behind the strut tower still in the game will trick screw the eec in thinking the system is still there.
call me if you have trouble.
i just short belted mine and kept the whole system.
with the pully riding on a shaft that has a bronze bearing / bushing.... once upon a time i couldnt keep a belt on my old 3.8L.
finally found out that after the engine was warm,, the smog pully was binding up and throwing my belt.
imagine not knowing where to start knowing your belts wont stay on,, and how much troubleshooting it took to finally figure this out~!!
this plus one other problem caused me to find this board for what feels like amost a lifetime ago.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: jcassity on February 23, 2014, 09:26:34 AM
Post by: jcassity on February 23, 2014, 09:26:34 AM
your looking for about 19lbs of vac at idle and your needle should be fairly steady.
vac would drop out as you goose the throttle.
vac would show attempts to maintain presure as you gently increase throttle.
vac would drop out as you goose the throttle.
vac would show attempts to maintain presure as you gently increase throttle.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 23, 2014, 12:03:11 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 23, 2014, 12:03:11 PM
In the of
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 23, 2014, 02:08:24 PM
Post by: Haystack on February 23, 2014, 02:08:24 PM
Tom, I assumed the computer would know, but your right it doesn't. I updated this in my post. my 86 cougar wouldn't pass emissions and threw no codes. got a light on it and it was timed at 30*. Dist bolt was loose. can't believe it didn't ping or anything. retimed at 10* and flew through emissions (went from 450ppm hc to 75).
A vacuum leak to either the map sensor, or the hoses on the vac tree will make the car run super rich because it won't have enough air to the map sensor. been there and done that on almost every car I've owned.
If o2 aren't reading right, it will show up in codes.
A vacuum leak to either the map sensor, or the hoses on the vac tree will make the car run super rich because it won't have enough air to the map sensor. been there and done that on almost every car I've owned.
If o2 aren't reading right, it will show up in codes.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 23, 2014, 02:49:57 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 23, 2014, 02:49:57 PM
Not
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 24, 2014, 11:34:58 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 24, 2014, 11:34:58 AM
Tryed pulling codes yesterday an I've got to get a test light used digital voltmeter didn't work. But during the test the car did not idle up at all n when test was done car died an the first time I tried to start it all it would do is turn over no fire but when I turned the key off an tried again the car never missed a lick like nothing was wrong car ran great like before it started having problems I even drove till it got a good heat soak on the motor an it was still just purring no missing or anything but I parked it for like 15 min not running an when I went back to try it again back to the same ole I think it may be the new PIP is going back out but I need to pull codes the right way first
PS no vac leak
PS no vac leak
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 24, 2014, 11:43:56 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 24, 2014, 11:43:56 AM
Has
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 24, 2014, 03:04:26 PM
Post by: Haystack on February 24, 2014, 03:04:26 PM
Pull the hose off your map sensor and it will stain the ground black in seconds. I don't think anyone would call that lean ;).
86 tbird, if you watch my YouTube video, I show how you should hook up the volt meter (or test light) in my video at the end. use a paper clip for a jumper.
86 tbird, if you watch my YouTube video, I show how you should hook up the volt meter (or test light) in my video at the end. use a paper clip for a jumper.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Beau on February 24, 2014, 03:37:13 PM
Post by: Beau on February 24, 2014, 03:37:13 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;429438
Has the ignition switch been changed???
Good point...a failing ign switch (NOT the part where the key itself goes, but the piece with the long electrical connector inside the column, under the plastic upper and lower piece) will cause all sorts of crazy issues.
One guy here reported his car would start up randomly all by itself...even with the key in his pocket. Worse yet, they can turn a Thunderbird into a toastedbird.
Not saying that is the OP's issue, but if nothing else is apparent, it might be a direction to pursue...
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 24, 2014, 04:22:34 PM
Post by: Haystack on February 24, 2014, 04:22:34 PM
My cougar ignition switch was melted pretty good when I bought it and the radio gauges and everything didn't work when I got it home. I put a new one in and everything works except an occasional loss of gauges. I'm gonna get a new plug and swap it over when I get around to it. I just really don't want to do 13 butt splices on the ignition so I'm gonna try to re pin the new plug.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 24, 2014, 06:11:18 PM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 24, 2014, 06:11:18 PM
Haystack- I did watch our video my voltmeter is a digital one going to get a test light this week to redo KOER test
Tom- none of the ignition stuff has ever to my knowledge been changed an the car as been in my family for a very long time
Everyone- thanks for all of your alls input of an does anyone know were I could find a plug for the bottom of a 88 HO intake its missing one of the Allen plugs thanks again
Tom- none of the ignition stuff has ever to my knowledge been changed an the car as been in my family for a very long time
Everyone- thanks for all of your alls input of an does anyone know were I could find a plug for the bottom of a 88 HO intake its missing one of the Allen plugs thanks again
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 24, 2014, 06:44:53 PM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 24, 2014, 06:44:53 PM
Haystack- I did watch our video my voltmeter is a digital one going to get a test light this week to redo KOER test
Tom- none of the ignition stuff has ever to my knowledge been changed an the car as been in my family for a very long time
Everyone- thanks for all of your alls input of an does anyone know were I could find a plug for the bottom of a 88 HO intake its missing one of the Allen plugs thanks again
Tom- none of the ignition stuff has ever to my knowledge been changed an the car as been in my family for a very long time
Everyone- thanks for all of your alls input of an does anyone know were I could find a plug for the bottom of a 88 HO intake its missing one of the Allen plugs thanks again
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 24, 2014, 09:15:01 PM
Post by: Haystack on February 24, 2014, 09:15:01 PM
Yeah, digital ones do not update quick enough. I have a tail light bulb with two wires soldered to it I have used as a test light and to discharge my model airplane batteries. walmart also used to sell cheapie buttstuffog meters.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 24, 2014, 10:05:52 PM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 24, 2014, 10:05:52 PM
An this may sound stupid but what is a TIF
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: softtouch on February 25, 2014, 01:07:43 AM
Post by: softtouch on February 25, 2014, 01:07:43 AM
Quote from: 86TBIRD;429473
An this may sound stupid but what is a TIF
When you run codes you should run KOEO first.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 25, 2014, 08:38:47 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 25, 2014, 08:38:47 AM
That's done the same as a KOER just minus the running part
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 25, 2014, 11:22:04 AM
Post by: Haystack on February 25, 2014, 11:22:04 AM
Yup. key on engine off, vs key on engine running.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 25, 2014, 06:10:09 PM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 25, 2014, 06:10:09 PM
I'll try to get that done this week an I'll get back with y'all
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 25, 2014, 06:26:02 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 25, 2014, 06:26:02 PM
[quote=
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 25, 2014, 07:07:48 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 25, 2014, 07:07:48 PM
Wha
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: mcb82gt on February 25, 2014, 08:58:44 PM
Post by: mcb82gt on February 25, 2014, 08:58:44 PM
Just jumping in here. Sounds like the TFI could be suspect. Motorcraft TFI is what I trust. If you did the PIP and used the old TFI module, I would swap it.
What codes is the computer giving you after that......
Could be a short in the TFI circuit wiring, or many other things.
How are you verifying its running rich.... by smell or by reading of O2 sensors???
What codes is the computer giving you after that......
Could be a short in the TFI circuit wiring, or many other things.
How are you verifying its running rich.... by smell or by reading of O2 sensors???
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 25, 2014, 09:12:37 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 25, 2014, 09:12:37 PM
Quote from: mcb82gt;429586
Just jumping in here. Sounds like the TFI could be suspect. Motorcraft TFI is what I trust. If you did the PIP and used the old TFI module, I would swap it.
What codes is the computer giving you after that......
Could be a short in the TFI circuit wiring, or many other things.
How are you verifying its running rich.... by smell or by reading of O2 sensors???
+1.
If it's not throwing a rich code it's not rich. Check for codes. Without them you're just guessing at what the problem is.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 26, 2014, 12:05:42 AM
Post by: Haystack on February 26, 2014, 12:05:42 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;429548
That is not a vacuum leak. That is a sensor that when Vacuum is removed from it forces the ECM RICH!!! Totally different from a vacuum leak. Clearly you have never dealt with FUEL TRIM NUMBERS OR ISSUES!!!! Removing a vacuum line from a MAP drives the ECM rich not because of a vacuum leak because that is how the sensor works. Install a voltmeter on the O2 and monitor it's output while instituting a vacuum leak and post back the results. Then you will understand why a vacuum leak always DRIVES AN ENGINE LEAN. Bottom line is a vacuum leak always leans out an engine PERIOD CASE CLOSED!@!!
So if a vacuum leak drives an engine RICH what does excessive fuel do drive it LEAN D'OH!!!
unless its in the hose to the vacuum tree, the break booster, or map sensor, like 90% of all vacuum leaks on on these cars. if any of those break, then the map sensor looses vacuum and runs rich.
I don't get why you can't agree with someone when you know that they are right. must be nice to get old and have everyone ignore you to the point you think you have to be right no matter what.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 26, 2014, 06:44:25 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 26, 2014, 06:44:25 AM
unless
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 26, 2014, 06:59:53 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 26, 2014, 06:59:53 AM
[url]http
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 26, 2014, 07:37:42 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 26, 2014, 07:37:42 AM
Lean F
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 26, 2014, 08:25:08 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 26, 2014, 08:25:08 AM
OK so I can tell by smell the car is running rich the tail pipe is nothing but black soot an I have replaced the TFI an I'm not sure on what you all main by the PIP an as I stated before I have no vacuum leaks have to work again tonight but I'll try to have y'all some more information soon as I can an I use a cheap TFI from local parts store didn't have funds for a good one thinking its about time just to replace the whole distributor an TPS the only things I haven't replaced lol
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 26, 2014, 08:46:21 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 26, 2014, 08:46:21 AM
(Profile
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: V8Demon on February 26, 2014, 09:25:33 AM
Post by: V8Demon on February 26, 2014, 09:25:33 AM
Quote
OK so I can tell by smell the car is running rich the tail pipe is nothing but black soot
I'll give an example on one of my own vehicles for reference.
Driving along one day in my Mustang my check engine light comes on.....Hmmm OK. I baby the car home as I'm about two blocks away and pull in the driveway. I take note that I'm basically rolling coal out of my exhaust and I can smell the gas..... I pull out the scanner and go through my checks. LEAN CODE. After opening my hood and looking around I notice a single line off. It's the EGR line that runs to my air intake just in front of the throttle body on this car. If I remember correctly this line has a 5/16" inner diameter. Not very large in the grand scheme of things, right? It was enough to make it show one thing and the ECU to tell me another.
You say there's really no vacuum leak and I'm inclined to take your word for it. Were both the PIP and TFI changed? Or just one? I can't really tell through all the posts. I see a couple of other things were changed as well. Was all this stuff changed AT THE SAME TIME? From the way your post reads it wasn't so I have to agree with TR and state go over what you changed and swap it out for known good stuff.
Also; For people who may read this down the road; pictures for reference:
(http://351winsor.com/joel/Ignition_Systems/TFI_PIP/PIP_Sensor_Remove17.JPG)
Last, but not least; HAYSTACK, CLEAN OUT YOUR PM BOX!!!
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 26, 2014, 01:44:01 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 26, 2014, 01:44:01 PM
Not
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: V8Demon on February 26, 2014, 02:05:11 PM
Post by: V8Demon on February 26, 2014, 02:05:11 PM
Yeah, I was just kinda showing with a real world example was all. Your gut says "Oh, it's running pig rich" and the ECU is in fact trying to compensate, but running a diagnostic reveals the truth in situations like this.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 26, 2014, 05:02:45 PM
Post by: 86TBIRD on February 26, 2014, 05:02:45 PM
Sry meant to add this in last post I know the car is running rich because I had it scanned abouta couple months ago scanner said running rich on baank 1 so I know the car had been running a little rich before an I only changed the TFI
Will try to work on car 2 after work an thanks to everyone for there help
Will try to work on car 2 after work an thanks to everyone for there help
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Chooglin on February 27, 2014, 12:13:26 PM
Post by: Chooglin on February 27, 2014, 12:13:26 PM
I am trying to get a understanding of what everyone is posting here ,so I have a question to ask.
Let me first say that I have minimal knowledge of a efi fuel system (that is why I have a carb system)and simply asking out of curiosity.
So my question: is this car running rich ,do to a lean condition ? This is what I am gathering from all of this !!
Am I way off by thinking this ?
Let me first say that I have minimal knowledge of a efi fuel system (that is why I have a carb system)and simply asking out of curiosity.
So my question: is this car running rich ,do to a lean condition ? This is what I am gathering from all of this !!
Am I way off by thinking this ?
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 27, 2014, 10:48:34 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 27, 2014, 10:48:34 PM
Quote from: Chooglin;429701
I am trying to get a understanding of what everyone is posting here ,so I have a question to ask.
Let me first say that I have minimal knowledge of a efi fuel system (that is why I have a carb system)and simply asking out of curiosity.
So my question: is this car running rich ,do to a lean condition ? This is what I am gathering from all of this !!
Am I way off by thinking this ?
In a nut shell, a small vac leak in SD EFI system will cause a lean condition, IF that leak is at the MAP sensor or line connected to it, system will be very rich as the MAP mostly determines the amount of load in these systems by monitoring vac level... Low vac at MAP = heavy load, system increases injector pulse... This is also why you can't run a long duration cam with these systems as vac will be low...
In a MAF system the MAP becomes a baro sensor(no vac connected to it), any leak past the MAF meter will cause a lean condition...
Of course the systems can adapt if something isn't grossly out of order...
As far as throwing parts at it, Ford says fix the FIRST code given and then retest, if there are additional codes address those after first is fixed... Probably 95% of the time this procedure works...
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: jcassity on February 27, 2014, 11:10:07 PM
Post by: jcassity on February 27, 2014, 11:10:07 PM
and im over here thinking,, add a miniature adjustable bleed off valve inline with the map if you want a tad more power
and let the flames begin,,,
Major Tom,,,
can you be a tad more decent to stacks,,, seriously,, he's a good guy. bad / good info is its own thing. its not what your saying, its how your saying it.
oh well, just asking if you can lower the altitude.
and let the flames begin,,,
Major Tom,,,
can you be a tad more decent to stacks,,, seriously,, he's a good guy. bad / good info is its own thing. its not what your saying, its how your saying it.
oh well, just asking if you can lower the altitude.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 27, 2014, 11:30:49 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 27, 2014, 11:30:49 PM
Quote from: jcassity;429736
Major Tom,,,
can you be a tad more decent to stacks,,, seriously,, he's a good guy. bad / good info is its own thing. its not what your saying, its how your saying it.
oh well, just asking if you can lower the altitude.
You're askin Renzo not to be a ASS HOLE????
Bwahahah, yea right...
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Chooglin on February 28, 2014, 07:24:49 AM
Post by: Chooglin on February 28, 2014, 07:24:49 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;429728
In a nut shell, a small vac leak in SD EFI system will cause a lean condition, IF that leak is at the MAP sensor or line connected to it, system will be very rich as the MAP mostly determines the amount of load in these systems by monitoring vac level... Low vac at MAP = heavy load, system increases injector pulse... This is also why you can't run a long duration cam with these systems as vac will be low...
In a MAF system the MAP becomes a baro sensor(no vac connected to it), any leak past the MAF meter will cause a lean condition...
Of course the systems can adapt if something isn't grossly out of order...
As far as throwing parts at it, Ford says fix the FIRST code given and then retest, if there are additional codes address those after first is fixed... Probably 95% of the time this procedure works...
So didn't Haystack mention this in post #15 ?
As soon as Tom Renzo jumps into a thread and starts being a "BIG SHOT" that's when it get confusing and off track !!!
There is no need for his BS !!!
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 28, 2014, 08:11:43 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 28, 2014, 08:11:43 AM
Ok Jay i got it!!!
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on February 28, 2014, 11:15:34 PM
Post by: Haystack on February 28, 2014, 11:15:34 PM
We butt heads sometimes, but the point of this thread is to help the op, so lets get this thread back on track instead of arguing semantics. I really think that me and tom would get along well in real life, but its easy to act tough online and things are easily mis.construed until no one knows what's really going on.
Let us know when you can pull codes and exactly what comes up 86.
Let us know when you can pull codes and exactly what comes up 86.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 01, 2014, 07:52:22 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 01, 2014, 07:52:22 AM
I'll try sometime this week I just had a death in the family so it my be a few days but as soon as I pull the codes I will let y'all know what I find
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: jcassity on March 06, 2014, 02:18:09 PM
Post by: jcassity on March 06, 2014, 02:18:09 PM
we are all sorry for your loss,,, I hope all goes as well as can be expected.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 16, 2014, 02:48:38 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 16, 2014, 02:48:38 AM
Thanks you all
Well I still haven't it to running the codes on the car pulled upper intake to replace valve cover gaskets an run out of time to put it back on I am going to work on it this Friday when I start my 7 day vacation from work But I also found out that the part I replaced on the distributor is most likely the problem but as soon as I get it put together I am running codes an letting ya know
Well I still haven't it to running the codes on the car pulled upper intake to replace valve cover gaskets an run out of time to put it back on I am going to work on it this Friday when I start my 7 day vacation from work But I also found out that the part I replaced on the distributor is most likely the problem but as soon as I get it put together I am running codes an letting ya know
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on March 16, 2014, 01:41:26 PM
Post by: Haystack on March 16, 2014, 01:41:26 PM
Running codes takes less time then it took you to get tools out to pull your intake...
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 17, 2014, 02:22:29 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 17, 2014, 02:22:29 AM
Well I could just do a koeo test some but somewhere along the lines of doing the test on a car with most sensors unplugged (upper intake is on work bench along with the dist) just don't sound like a real good way to do test but I'm just saying
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on March 17, 2014, 06:42:54 PM
Post by: Haystack on March 17, 2014, 06:42:54 PM
Your time and money. I just hate replacing sensors and money on things that aren't broke.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 18, 2014, 03:44:17 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 18, 2014, 03:44:17 PM
Quote from: Haystack;430663
Running codes takes less time then it took you to get tools out to pull your intake...
Quote from: 86TBIRD;430710
Well I could just do a koeo test some but somewhere along the lines of doing the test on a car with most sensors unplugged (upper intake is on work bench along with the dist) just don't sound like a real good way to do test but I'm just saying
What Haystack meant is that it would have taken you less than 5 minutes to pull codes before you pulled your intake to replace parts willy nilly. It takes more than 5 minutes to pull the upper intake. A paper clip and you would have been all set: http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2471.0.html
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 19, 2014, 08:45:44 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 19, 2014, 08:45:44 AM
The only reason I pulled the intake was to replace the valve cover gaskets because they were starting to leak not to replace ANY THING ELSE an I'm planing on putting it all back together this weekend to run test an go from there an thank you all for your advice y'all have been a great help
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 26, 2014, 10:24:25 PM
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 26, 2014, 10:24:25 PM
OK finally got codes
KOEO- 34,85,10,18,22
KOER- 8,21,34
I swapped out dist for a good one an the little black plug on the wireing for the dist I had it unplugged to retime the car an everything was running great then I plunged it back in an the car died an I had to unplug it to do the KOER test could that piece be the problem or is it a step in the right direction thanks for yall's help
KOEO- 34,85,10,18,22
KOER- 8,21,34
I swapped out dist for a good one an the little black plug on the wireing for the dist I had it unplugged to retime the car an everything was running great then I plunged it back in an the car died an I had to unplug it to do the KOER test could that piece be the problem or is it a step in the right direction thanks for yall's help
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on March 27, 2014, 12:20:24 AM
Post by: Haystack on March 27, 2014, 12:20:24 AM
Oldfuelinjection.com is down... gimme a minute and ill find a source for pulled codes for you.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on March 27, 2014, 12:29:48 AM
Post by: Haystack on March 27, 2014, 12:29:48 AM
34, bad egr. ignore this for now.
85 can op failure? No idea
10 doesn't show
18 spout input error. loss of spark
22 map/baro sensor out of range. id start by replacing or checking the map sensor.
21 ect out of test range.
34 egr again. ignore for now.
Map sensor is the biggest worry. replacing the dist might have helped your loss of spark. test or replace your map sensor and see what happends.
85 can op failure? No idea
10 doesn't show
18 spout input error. loss of spark
22 map/baro sensor out of range. id start by replacing or checking the map sensor.
21 ect out of test range.
34 egr again. ignore for now.
Map sensor is the biggest worry. replacing the dist might have helped your loss of spark. test or replace your map sensor and see what happends.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: V8Demon on March 27, 2014, 12:48:48 AM
Post by: V8Demon on March 27, 2014, 12:48:48 AM
85 - CANP Circuit Failure
34 - EGR Valve Position/Pressure Feedback EGR Voltage Above Closed Limit
22 - Manifold Absolute Pressure/Barometric Pressure Sensor Out Of Self Test Range
21 - Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor Out Of Self Test Range
18 - Loss Of Ignition Diagnostic Module Input To PCM/SPOUT Circuit Grounded
10 & 8 do not exist in EEC-IV that I am aware of.
The 21 is your biggest issue. CanP is irrelevant for right now. Put that at the bottom of the list. The MAP code did not show while running so I would bet it's stored in continuous memory....It WILL put the ECU into FMEM (limp) mode though.... As will the code 34. The code 34 on it's own will cause the ECU to plug in a "safe" value for EGR position and increase fuel a little bit. Plenty of Fox Mustang guys report running around with no EGR and have zero issue.....
Do the KOER test again to make sure that 8 isn't in fact a repeat of 18. That points to a possible faulty tach signal. Test the ECT circuit. Start with the sensor. It's easiest to check and most likely your culprit. The sensor is a thermistor that changes resistance as coolant temp. changes.
(http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0900c152/80/07/27/b8/large/0900c152800727b8.gif)
34 - EGR Valve Position/Pressure Feedback EGR Voltage Above Closed Limit
22 - Manifold Absolute Pressure/Barometric Pressure Sensor Out Of Self Test Range
21 - Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor Out Of Self Test Range
18 - Loss Of Ignition Diagnostic Module Input To PCM/SPOUT Circuit Grounded
10 & 8 do not exist in EEC-IV that I am aware of.
The 21 is your biggest issue. CanP is irrelevant for right now. Put that at the bottom of the list. The MAP code did not show while running so I would bet it's stored in continuous memory....It WILL put the ECU into FMEM (limp) mode though.... As will the code 34. The code 34 on it's own will cause the ECU to plug in a "safe" value for EGR position and increase fuel a little bit. Plenty of Fox Mustang guys report running around with no EGR and have zero issue.....
Do the KOER test again to make sure that 8 isn't in fact a repeat of 18. That points to a possible faulty tach signal. Test the ECT circuit. Start with the sensor. It's easiest to check and most likely your culprit. The sensor is a thermistor that changes resistance as coolant temp. changes.
(http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0900c152/80/07/27/b8/large/0900c152800727b8.gif)
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 27, 2014, 06:11:49 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 27, 2014, 06:11:49 AM
So this is nothing to worrier bout the car runs great with it unplugged an dies as soon as u plug it back in any ideas an thanks for the help with the codes would say I'll work on it today but its my sons 2nd birthday no work today
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 27, 2014, 08:31:44 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 27, 2014, 08:31:44 AM
Do the Birds and Cougars have the salt and pepper shakers at the rear of the intake where the main EEC harness connects to the injector harness? It sounds like all of these issues would be tied up in those connectors on my Coupe. I had to tear those connectors apart and clean each connector by pulling it out of the plug. Put it all back together with some dielectric grease and all the codes but the EGR went away which is due to me not running one.
Darren
Darren
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: V8Demon on March 27, 2014, 12:39:48 PM
Post by: V8Demon on March 27, 2014, 12:39:48 PM
That's no good.... What's your base timing at with the spout connector removed? Aerocoupe, the sefi 5.0 has the salt & paper shakers. It's worth a shot giving them a once over.... I'd verify correct timing, do the shakers, and re-check codes after....
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 27, 2014, 12:58:42 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 27, 2014, 12:58:42 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;431374
That's no good.... What's your base timing at with the spout connector removed? Aerocoupe, the sefi 5.0 has the salt & paper shakers. It's worth a shot giving them a once over.... I'd verify correct timing, do the shakers, and re-check codes after....
Yeah timing could be waaay off......
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: softtouch on March 27, 2014, 01:12:32 PM
Post by: softtouch on March 27, 2014, 01:12:32 PM
The 10 is the separator between on demand and memory codes for KOEO.
He is using a code reader.
He is using a code reader.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on March 27, 2014, 01:26:46 PM
Post by: Haystack on March 27, 2014, 01:26:46 PM
Don't forget, the spout turns off computer controlled ignition advanced. this also points to tfi/pip sensor issues.
Ect out of self test range could mean the car wasn't fully up to operating temps.
My guess is still the same I had before. Map sensor. This should never show up in codes, cm or not.
In my opinion, the loss of spark, timing, and whatever is stopping it from running with spout out needs looked at first. my tbird runs fine right now with the egr not even plugged in, not even under the hood. I never even blocked off the vac line.
Ect out of self test range could mean the car wasn't fully up to operating temps.
My guess is still the same I had before. Map sensor. This should never show up in codes, cm or not.
In my opinion, the loss of spark, timing, and whatever is stopping it from running with spout out needs looked at first. my tbird runs fine right now with the egr not even plugged in, not even under the hood. I never even blocked off the vac line.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 27, 2014, 06:44:33 PM
Post by: 86TBIRD on March 27, 2014, 06:44:33 PM
I'm using a code reader an I think 10 I think is cylinder one an I'll try to work on it this week sometime (I hope)
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: V8Demon on March 27, 2014, 08:33:34 PM
Post by: V8Demon on March 27, 2014, 08:33:34 PM
Quote
Ect out of self test range could mean the car wasn't fully up to operating temps.
Didn't even think of that. Second nature for me is to give the car a 10 minute run first.
Quote
The 10 is the separator between on demand and memory codes for KOEO.
Access to a Snap-on makes me forget.....I'll try not to again. ;)
Quote from: thunderjet302;431380
Yeah timing could be waaay off......
I'm thinking this may be more of a PIP issue.....Worst case ECM.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 27, 2014, 11:19:50 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 27, 2014, 11:19:50 PM
It very well could be a PIP issue. He did mess with it.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on March 28, 2014, 05:57:38 AM
Post by: Haystack on March 28, 2014, 05:57:38 AM
If it was ecm its likely the sigrtn circuit would have fried. that would lose 90% of the sensors to the engine and likely wouldn't run at all with the spout out.
My opinion, verify positive timing setup, then verify spark/pip function. a new loaded dist was about $35 last time I bought one. swap in a good .fi module, clear codes and see what pops up. shouldn't take more then an hour in my opinion.
Overall, it should be a pretty simple fix as long as your able to trouble shoot components easily. its easy to get overwhelmed and over think things.
My opinion, verify positive timing setup, then verify spark/pip function. a new loaded dist was about $35 last time I bought one. swap in a good .fi module, clear codes and see what pops up. shouldn't take more then an hour in my opinion.
Overall, it should be a pretty simple fix as long as your able to trouble shoot components easily. its easy to get overwhelmed and over think things.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on March 28, 2014, 06:01:21 AM
Post by: Haystack on March 28, 2014, 06:01:21 AM
Here is a diy pip/tfi testing procedure. make sure your timing is set right and lets get ya back on the road.
http://351winsor.com/joel/Ignition_Systems/tfi2.html
http://351winsor.com/joel/Ignition_Systems/tfi2.html
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on March 28, 2014, 06:01:47 AM
Post by: Haystack on March 28, 2014, 06:01:47 AM
Here is a diy pip/tfi testing procedure. make sure your timing is set right and lets get ya back on the road.
http://351winsor.com/joel/Ignition_Systems/tfi2.html
http://351winsor.com/joel/Ignition_Systems/tfi2.html
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on April 03, 2014, 05:13:40 PM
Post by: 86TBIRD on April 03, 2014, 05:13:40 PM
Sorry its been a few days I haven't had a whole lot of time lately with working an a 2 year old at home but as soon as I get a chance I'm planning on working on the car an I'll get back with y'all an thanks again for everyone's advice an wonderful help I can't thank everyone enough
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: Haystack on April 03, 2014, 05:23:26 PM
Post by: Haystack on April 03, 2014, 05:23:26 PM
Just don't give up on it! We are all in this together. I'm working 3 jobs and have a 5 and 2 year old, so i kow exactly what you mean.
Title: 5.0 so running rich (help!!!!!)
Post by: 86TBIRD on April 06, 2014, 08:26:58 AM
Post by: 86TBIRD on April 06, 2014, 08:26:58 AM
Thanks an trust me I have them moments were I could just watch it burn but this ole bird means a lot to me I'm the second owner of this car It was my First car and hopefully she'll be back to looking like I remember