Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
moving this thread to proper location.........
ive got 550$ in this now....... a 1997 ford explorer motor.
i do have questions below and need advise for parts collection
*********need HO cam
*********need help on what size injectors,, explorer i think have 34lb but thats too much fuel i believe
*********need to udnerstand how to get a hold of a steel dizzy gear if i use an ho cam!! help! do i need a steel dizzy gear or not?
*********can i go with a MarkVII fuel pump or SC 3.8L pump? has stock fuel pump i think
I purchased the whole engine, it resides on thier warehouse shelf fully complete minus only the starter, alternator and airconditioning., came from a rear ended exploder i believe,, can confirm,,
The yard runs each engine to verify operation prior to shelving and put up for sale.
price included cost of motor plus delivery to my garage 33 miles away.
so,, here is our current set up.
pls keep in mind that this build will help feed another build for my youngest son Chance when we put a decent engine together for my white coug.
Car is 88 bird sport, with what i believe has *got* to be e7 heads, stock bottom end, explorer uper and lower, BBK 65mm TB, 14LB injectors, stock computer.
option 1:
explorer motor delievers and i tear down and decide what machine work needs done.
have block punched and line bored if needed pending condition of interior parts i see.
it is likely i will have the shop punch out 30over bores.
do std size short block rebuild with possible 30over pistons
when mason gets home, we will remove his engine, swap on his existing explorer upper / lower / bbk TB he got for christmas
mason gets the explorer iron heads
remove his 14lb injectors for a set of 19lb set tom bryant sold me a long while back.
use the headers from my newly purched explorer motor
button things up and call it good.
option 2
add 331 stroker kit to bottom end with 30over pistons
do std size bearing kit if all is well.
mason now gets the explorer iron heads
swap over mason existing upper/lower intake he got for christmas and the bbk 65mm tb
end result
Chance gets a ready 5.0 block, with bottom end parts, Explorer upper , lower and tb, E7 heads, BBK headers i have on hand, gets him ahead of the game and my 550$ spent gets good use. I have a 5.0 wire harness lined up but i have to pay real well for it , have I hope at least two oil pans lined up....got a few pms to answer.
this is all going on in about 30days from now with mason taking a week vacation. (masons build that is)
ive got 550$ in this now....... a 1997 ford explorer motor.
i do have questions below and need advise for parts collection
*********need HO cam
*********need help on what size injectors,, explorer i think have 34lb but thats too much fuel i believe
*********need to udnerstand how to get a hold of a steel dizzy gear if i use an ho cam!! help! do i need a steel dizzy gear or not?
*********can i go with a MarkVII fuel pump or SC 3.8L pump? has stock fuel pump i think
I purchased the whole engine, it resides on thier warehouse shelf fully complete minus only the starter, alternator and airconditioning., came from a rear ended exploder i believe,, can confirm,,
The yard runs each engine to verify operation prior to shelving and put up for sale.
price included cost of motor plus delivery to my garage 33 miles away.
so,, here is our current set up.
pls keep in mind that this build will help feed another build for my youngest son Chance when we put a decent engine together for my white coug.
Car is 88 bird sport, with what i believe has *got* to be e7 heads, stock bottom end, explorer uper and lower, BBK 65mm TB, 14LB injectors, stock computer.
option 1:
explorer motor delievers and i tear down and decide what machine work needs done.
have block punched and line bored if needed pending condition of interior parts i see.
it is likely i will have the shop punch out 30over bores.
do std size short block rebuild with possible 30over pistons
when mason gets home, we will remove his engine, swap on his existing explorer upper / lower / bbk TB he got for christmas
mason gets the explorer iron heads
remove his 14lb injectors for a set of 19lb set tom bryant sold me a long while back.
use the headers from my newly purched explorer motor
button things up and call it good.
option 2
add 331 stroker kit to bottom end with 30over pistons
do std size bearing kit if all is well.
mason now gets the explorer iron heads
swap over mason existing upper/lower intake he got for christmas and the bbk 65mm tb
end result
Chance gets a ready 5.0 block, with bottom end parts, Explorer upper , lower and tb, E7 heads, BBK headers i have on hand, gets him ahead of the game and my 550$ spent gets good use. I have a 5.0 wire harness lined up but i have to pay real well for it , have I hope at least two oil pans lined up....got a few pms to answer.
this is all going on in about 30days from now with mason taking a week vacation. (masons build that is)
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2013, 10:22:07 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2013, 10:22:07 AM
if anyone can call me it would be nice.
i want to make sure we have all the right parts to do this in the short duration of time and slowly enough to where we can use all the time to do it right.
304 772 3411 or 4082,, ask for scott
much appreciated.
i want to make sure we have all the right parts to do this in the short duration of time and slowly enough to where we can use all the time to do it right.
304 772 3411 or 4082,, ask for scott
much appreciated.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 05, 2013, 12:44:10 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 05, 2013, 12:44:10 PM
Finding time to call is difficult, apologies for not responding quickly to your PM.
If it's a late 97 engine, it will have 19# injectors, gt40p heads, and external egr. You'll know for sure if the EGR valve has a steel pipe from it to the right side exhaust manifold. For this you WILL want P head headers with an EGR pipe fitting on it, and you WILL have to keep the 90 degree turn adapter on it. You'll want to transfer the BBK 65mm unit as it will have the right quadrant on it and you'll have to make a bracket to adapt the throttle and TV cables bracket to fit in the new location. You'll need to make a new inlet pipe. You'll have to use a pre-OBD2 external feed EGR valve, probably from an F-150 because the Explorer EGR valve will not have a provision to mount the EVP sensor on it.
In either case, transfer the HO cam and the dizzy together, then you don't have to care about the dizzy gear. Make sure you're running an HO PCM such as from a Mark VII. I also recommend using the Explorer accessory drive components unless you can eliminate the oil cooler. Otherwise the long nose water pump accessory drive system will not line up properly with the coolant outlet on the oil cooler and you'll have to get "creative" hosing the water pump and the oil cooler together (ask me how I know). This presents new hurdles. The alternator isn't a problem, but the power steering pump will need new hoses made to fit and a bracket to mount the reservoir on. Not a huge hump either, but the Explorer AC compressor will need a new manifold and pipes assembly made that will attach to the car and the new style compressor, and THAT will be a touch more difficult. Or you can get creative like I did, and I can send you pics of my solution.
If you're dealing with an early 97 engine, things are much easier. You still already have 19# injectors and you only have to swap the cam and dizzy, then decide which way to go with the accessory drive, the EGR from an HO engine can carry over directly, as can the associated bracketry. One last thing to note, if you have an early upper and lower intake, use it. It doesn't cause the same clearance issues with the HO valve covers AND while it still doesn't have a pre-drilled port for the egr cooler or the air charge temp sensor, it does have nice flat places to drill and tap for them. The later intake has a slightly lower plenum and no port bosses to drill out. I learned the hard way to not even think about relocating the sensor to a cooler location.
If it's a late 97 engine, it will have 19# injectors, gt40p heads, and external egr. You'll know for sure if the EGR valve has a steel pipe from it to the right side exhaust manifold. For this you WILL want P head headers with an EGR pipe fitting on it, and you WILL have to keep the 90 degree turn adapter on it. You'll want to transfer the BBK 65mm unit as it will have the right quadrant on it and you'll have to make a bracket to adapt the throttle and TV cables bracket to fit in the new location. You'll need to make a new inlet pipe. You'll have to use a pre-OBD2 external feed EGR valve, probably from an F-150 because the Explorer EGR valve will not have a provision to mount the EVP sensor on it.
In either case, transfer the HO cam and the dizzy together, then you don't have to care about the dizzy gear. Make sure you're running an HO PCM such as from a Mark VII. I also recommend using the Explorer accessory drive components unless you can eliminate the oil cooler. Otherwise the long nose water pump accessory drive system will not line up properly with the coolant outlet on the oil cooler and you'll have to get "creative" hosing the water pump and the oil cooler together (ask me how I know). This presents new hurdles. The alternator isn't a problem, but the power steering pump will need new hoses made to fit and a bracket to mount the reservoir on. Not a huge hump either, but the Explorer AC compressor will need a new manifold and pipes assembly made that will attach to the car and the new style compressor, and THAT will be a touch more difficult. Or you can get creative like I did, and I can send you pics of my solution.
If you're dealing with an early 97 engine, things are much easier. You still already have 19# injectors and you only have to swap the cam and dizzy, then decide which way to go with the accessory drive, the EGR from an HO engine can carry over directly, as can the associated bracketry. One last thing to note, if you have an early upper and lower intake, use it. It doesn't cause the same clearance issues with the HO valve covers AND while it still doesn't have a pre-drilled port for the egr cooler or the air charge temp sensor, it does have nice flat places to drill and tap for them. The later intake has a slightly lower plenum and no port bosses to drill out. I learned the hard way to not even think about relocating the sensor to a cooler location.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: 88turbo on July 05, 2013, 12:47:56 PM
Post by: 88turbo on July 05, 2013, 12:47:56 PM
http://www.sbftech.com/
Scott, there's a bunch of good info here and some really knowledgeable people.
Scott, there's a bunch of good info here and some really knowledgeable people.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2013, 02:21:01 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2013, 02:21:01 PM
i kinda lost me or you lost me Foe,
i dont have an HO cam
Are you saying I must convert to HO EEC?
for 331 stroker wouldnt i need more fuel
i better learn to not type so much stuff and ask questions one at a time. LOL
i dont have an HO cam
Are you saying I must convert to HO EEC?
for 331 stroker wouldnt i need more fuel
i better learn to not type so much stuff and ask questions one at a time. LOL
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2013, 02:23:18 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2013, 02:23:18 PM
maybe i should take this one question at a time so i dont screw up my parts list.
first question
what injectors would be recommended for a 331 kit based on this cars current setup?
first question
what injectors would be recommended for a 331 kit based on this cars current setup?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 05, 2013, 02:25:17 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 05, 2013, 02:25:17 PM
I guess I just sort of assumed you had one since you said you had e7 heads. I would say that yes you need an HO PCM either way you do it. And if you want to run larger injectors you'll need a J3 port module that you can flash with a custom calibration. I THINK.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 05, 2013, 02:30:55 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 05, 2013, 02:30:55 PM
The injector size for a 331 is going to depend on the heads and the cam. With gt40 heads and any kind of stock cam, 19's are probably fine. Maybe 24's, tops. I've heard that the speed density PCM's don't play nice with injector swaps, maybe someone who has done it will know better.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2013, 03:55:23 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2013, 03:55:23 PM
the heads will be iron GT40's on this motor which is a 97explorer.
mason has the explorer upper/lower/bbk spacer(incorrect info from me above) / I believe an explorer TB
We want an HO cam
I was under the impression i woulnt have to swap in an HO eec just yet,, wouldnt that require mass air meter?
if we stay stock crank kit thats fine
if we go 331 we do need more fuel i thought?
mason has the explorer upper/lower/bbk spacer(incorrect info from me above) / I believe an explorer TB
We want an HO cam
I was under the impression i woulnt have to swap in an HO eec just yet,, wouldnt that require mass air meter?
if we stay stock crank kit thats fine
if we go 331 we do need more fuel i thought?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Masejoer on July 05, 2013, 06:43:37 PM
Post by: Masejoer on July 05, 2013, 06:43:37 PM
The Explorer motor can already approach the limits of 19lb injectors at 302ci. I'd start with 24lb injector if you went 331. With my car tuned for a 12.5:1 AFR, I washiznitting 100% duty cycle on the 19lb injectors at 5k rpms. This was basically a stock rebuilt shortblock, gt40 heads, gt40-based intake, HO cam, and 65mm tb/dual 2.5" exhaust. I'm not sure the SO computer can deal with 19lb injectors without a custom tune.
I think you should just go 19lb/HO cam/speed density HO EEC (87/88, direct replacement), and then if you prefer, you could switch to mass air. You'd need a 90lph or greater fuel pump to keep up with 19lb injectors. 120lph or greater would support 24lb injectors.
I think you should just go 19lb/HO cam/speed density HO EEC (87/88, direct replacement), and then if you prefer, you could switch to mass air. You'd need a 90lph or greater fuel pump to keep up with 19lb injectors. 120lph or greater would support 24lb injectors.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on July 05, 2013, 08:05:14 PM
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on July 05, 2013, 08:05:14 PM
HO cam will require HO computer as the firing order is different. If you going to buy an EEC anyways, you may as well go ahead and buy a MAF EEC because you will eventually need it, and there is no need in buying two. Get a MAF sensor, MAF EEC, and the MAF plug. if you shop around it shouldn't cost more than $125.
Don't buy the MAF conversion kit, as all it is is a plug with wire. you can get the same thing from a junkyard for $5 tops
Don't buy the MAF conversion kit, as all it is is a plug with wire. you can get the same thing from a junkyard for $5 tops
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 05, 2013, 09:28:45 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 05, 2013, 09:28:45 PM
Someone with jcassity's level of expertise could stick with speed density and use a flashable J3 port module like a tweecer or Moates quarterhorse and actually run faster. The only advantage MAF has is flexibility, and it comes at a cost. On a stock crank run 19's as a 331, run 24's. If your long term goals are stratospheric, run 24's on the stock crank and 36's on the 331. In any case, you probably need software work to run over 19#.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Clayton on July 05, 2013, 11:43:55 PM
Post by: Clayton on July 05, 2013, 11:43:55 PM
Scott i have a ho cam if you want it. Just pay shipping
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on July 05, 2013, 11:50:54 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 05, 2013, 11:50:54 PM
if you.go.mass air, you can.buy a mass air unit calibrated for the injectors, then you won't need a tune.
on sd, you'll need a tune for 24 or higher injectors. many sd.systems make more power and are simpler then mass.air. mass air will do better with modifications, but short of a super charger or really hot.cam, I don't you'll notice a difference.
order the fuel pump for a stang. just the fuel pump. it works fine with your stock hanger assembly. bigger is better, and little cost difference. stay away from airtek pumps. open the box at the parts store, and find a boshe stamp.
on sd, you'll need a tune for 24 or higher injectors. many sd.systems make more power and are simpler then mass.air. mass air will do better with modifications, but short of a super charger or really hot.cam, I don't you'll notice a difference.
order the fuel pump for a stang. just the fuel pump. it works fine with your stock hanger assembly. bigger is better, and little cost difference. stay away from airtek pumps. open the box at the parts store, and find a boshe stamp.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on July 05, 2013, 11:51:25 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 05, 2013, 11:51:25 PM
if you.go.mass air, you can.buy a mass air unit calibrated for the injectors, then you won't need a tune.
on sd, you'll need a tune for 24 or higher injectors. many sd.systems make more power and are simpler then mass.air. mass air will do better with modifications, but short of a super charger or really hot.cam, I don't you'll notice a difference.
order the fuel pump for a stang. just the fuel pump. it works fine with your stock hanger assembly. bigger is better, and little cost difference. stay away from airtek pumps. open the box at the parts store, and find a boshe stamp.
on sd, you'll need a tune for 24 or higher injectors. many sd.systems make more power and are simpler then mass.air. mass air will do better with modifications, but short of a super charger or really hot.cam, I don't you'll notice a difference.
order the fuel pump for a stang. just the fuel pump. it works fine with your stock hanger assembly. bigger is better, and little cost difference. stay away from airtek pumps. open the box at the parts store, and find a boshe stamp.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 12:51:25 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 12:51:25 PM
Quote from: 87thunderbirdBlackJack;418090
Scott i have a ho cam if you want it. Just pay shipping
that would be great, is it in good shape?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 12:58:28 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 12:58:28 PM
Quote from: Haystack;418092
on sd, you'll need a tune for 24 or higher injectors.
I am confused about the explorer motor, i thought they cam with higher than 19lbs
i didnt know the eeciv could be tuned??????????
i dont want to add this complication to the build,, but if its required i need to adjust.
i know there are people out there who have done 331 stroker kits and went through the hurdles already, tryng to muster up some knowledge base so i dong get caught without the right parts.
i do have an 86 Linc MKVII HO EEC with the following info~i assume this is a speed density eec
EEC IV
SFI-SD1
e6sf-12a650-L1b
the safety sticker has another sticker atop of it with "VL1" on it
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on July 06, 2013, 01:04:35 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 06, 2013, 01:04:35 PM
the explorers I've seen were 19#.
you can get 24# off of a fuel injected 460. they use the j3 port on the computer to alter certain inputs and out puts to the computer to trick it into using the proper amounts of fuel,ect. the calibrated mass air meters do essentially the same thing.
there is no reason you can't run it on 19#. my boss has a supercharged stang with 19#. you'll just run out of fuel at higher rpm's.
you can get 24# off of a fuel injected 460. they use the j3 port on the computer to alter certain inputs and out puts to the computer to trick it into using the proper amounts of fuel,ect. the calibrated mass air meters do essentially the same thing.
there is no reason you can't run it on 19#. my boss has a supercharged stang with 19#. you'll just run out of fuel at higher rpm's.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 01:27:32 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 01:27:32 PM
my cheat sheets show 19lb injectors are good for about 285hp,, with a 331, that is cutting it close,,,,,,,,,
but........
close may be a good idea. i just dont want the same issue he has now at wot, the car falls out unless he backs off the pedal (running 14lb inj now)
so is this eec i posted SD HO?
would it be compatable with a 331? with a 30 over bore?
sorry to sound random, i just need to be talked "in" or "out" of a plan.
Mason really wants the 331 kit and with a bore along with the explorer top half, that should get him taken care of.
but........
close may be a good idea. i just dont want the same issue he has now at wot, the car falls out unless he backs off the pedal (running 14lb inj now)
so is this eec i posted SD HO?
would it be compatable with a 331? with a 30 over bore?
sorry to sound random, i just need to be talked "in" or "out" of a plan.
Mason really wants the 331 kit and with a bore along with the explorer top half, that should get him taken care of.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on July 06, 2013, 01:45:44 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 06, 2013, 01:45:44 PM
id personally do at least 24#.
you can get it happensrunning fine on 19#, but you will probably run lean at high rpm's. then you would need either a tune or chip. you would probably want one with a stroker anyways
id go 347 if it were me. price is identical. a stroker doesn't necessary make more power, it makes more power at a lower rpm. it will also run out of air/fuel quicker.
you can get it happensrunning fine on 19#, but you will probably run lean at high rpm's. then you would need either a tune or chip. you would probably want one with a stroker anyways
id go 347 if it were me. price is identical. a stroker doesn't necessary make more power, it makes more power at a lower rpm. it will also run out of air/fuel quicker.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 02:33:54 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 02:33:54 PM
my son is still trying to locate a brand for his stroker kit...
the difference in resistance on the injectors is a topic i need to cover as well, seems the 19lb are about two homes more resistance than the gray 14lb, got me curious on the 24's and such.
the difference in resistance on the injectors is a topic i need to cover as well, seems the 19lb are about two homes more resistance than the gray 14lb, got me curious on the 24's and such.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 06, 2013, 03:19:23 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 06, 2013, 03:19:23 PM
If you're going to build a stroker, 331 is the way. That is unless you plan to run a betting pool on how long the rings will last. On a 331, run 24's you can get them off any Mustang or Crown Vic with a 4.6 or anything else with a modular. Get a Quarterhorse from Moates, it can read the base program from the EEC and then let you tune from there without shutting the engine off. That way you don't have to build a custom tune from scratch. Forget about the 14's. Kill them with fire.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 06, 2013, 05:20:48 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 06, 2013, 05:20:48 PM
Build a 347. There is no substitution for CUBES!! And a stand alone and be dun with it.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Clayton on July 06, 2013, 05:25:52 PM
Post by: Clayton on July 06, 2013, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: jcassity;418111
that would be great, is it in good shape?
Yeah it as a little surface rust but its been on my bench since november.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 06, 2013, 05:39:05 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 06, 2013, 05:39:05 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;418132
Build a 347. There is no substitution for CUBES!! And a stand alone and be dun with it.
Giving up 16ci might cost you a tiny bit of power, but it's gonna save you money in the long run.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 06, 2013, 08:01:48 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 06, 2013, 08:01:48 PM
Foe for all good reasons the 347 has been a very good choice when increasing displacement for the small ford engine. The wrist pin thing has been resolved and the added TORQUE is significantly more on the 347 compared to the 331. So Jay has a heavy car and he needs all the torque he can get. Remember displacement is mandatory on an NA engine that is a small engine in a heavy car. All the issues related to the 347 has been corrected. They last and they do not have an oil control issues any more. Go for the extra torque and call it a day. Go for the cubes no matter how slight they may be. Bigger engine means bigger TORQUE. Just saying!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on July 06, 2013, 09:12:56 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 06, 2013, 09:12:56 PM
I've seena couple of local stang guys with over 100k on 347.blocks pushing close to 500hp. when I asked why they didn't go 331 they just laughed.and walked.away.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 10:01:27 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 10:01:27 PM
hey guys,, i thank you all for helping.
Tom, i think what i am leary about is the 347 rod angle issues, this will be a daily driver and if its not a track car, it might last longer but still, wear is wear on the middle of each stroke.
I also appreciate the advice on the 24lb injectors and thier source.
i may need to fall back on that info.
is the following feasable,, meaining will it work? and work well enough for a daily driver?
-302 block .030 over with machine work to the deck if required
-331 stroker kit (347 option is not off the table)
-MKVII SD EEC HO
-HO Cam
-19lb injectors (can the MkVII EEC manage the 24lb injectors if i go that way?
-replacement fuel pump as haystack suggested
-2 1/2 dual exhaust
-Explorer headers
-explorer upper
-explorer lower
-bbk TB spacer
-65mm TB
-Explorer GT irons and have them milled down a little to freshen up the surface
*will i need a steel distributor gear or now to run against the HO cam?
*are there any possible issues with ptv on using explorer heads on stock 88 pistons *if* i am talked out of a stroker?
foe,
is what you are describing expensive and would it be complated to understand and get up and running in the short time frame we have to get mason back to work?
Tom, i think what i am leary about is the 347 rod angle issues, this will be a daily driver and if its not a track car, it might last longer but still, wear is wear on the middle of each stroke.
I also appreciate the advice on the 24lb injectors and thier source.
i may need to fall back on that info.
is the following feasable,, meaining will it work? and work well enough for a daily driver?
-302 block .030 over with machine work to the deck if required
-331 stroker kit (347 option is not off the table)
-MKVII SD EEC HO
-HO Cam
-19lb injectors (can the MkVII EEC manage the 24lb injectors if i go that way?
-replacement fuel pump as haystack suggested
-2 1/2 dual exhaust
-Explorer headers
-explorer upper
-explorer lower
-bbk TB spacer
-65mm TB
-Explorer GT irons and have them milled down a little to freshen up the surface
*will i need a steel distributor gear or now to run against the HO cam?
*are there any possible issues with ptv on using explorer heads on stock 88 pistons *if* i am talked out of a stroker?
foe,
is what you are describing expensive and would it be complated to understand and get up and running in the short time frame we have to get mason back to work?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 10:04:09 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 06, 2013, 10:04:09 PM
Quote from: 87thunderbirdBlackJack;418133
Yeah it as a little surface rust but its been on my bench since november.
ok, i appreciate it
scott cassity
hc83 box 70A
gap mills wv 24941
where did the cam come from,,? let me know how much
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on July 06, 2013, 10:20:34 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 06, 2013, 10:20:34 PM
you will need a.chip or some type of tune, or even stand alone to run 24#. plan on this unless you already have the 19#. ford explorer injectors fit but have a different plug.
stock dist works fine on any roller cam. there is nothing different between them and the.h.o. motors. the 331 or 347 will take the same amount of machine work, the 347 will have more power, and most 331 kits have the same stroke and rod ratio as 347 kits.
there is no reason to go 331, at all. this is old thinking as tom pointed out. you would learn a lot from sbftech.
stock dist works fine on any roller cam. there is nothing different between them and the.h.o. motors. the 331 or 347 will take the same amount of machine work, the 347 will have more power, and most 331 kits have the same stroke and rod ratio as 347 kits.
there is no reason to go 331, at all. this is old thinking as tom pointed out. you would learn a lot from sbftech.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 07, 2013, 09:37:55 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 07, 2013, 09:37:55 AM
with a 5 day windown, i am not sure we can achieve the air/fuel managment aspect properly based on all the info i am getting,,, this is disappointing.
I am electrical and computer savvy, engine building is easy if you do it right,, the knowledge of what works is way opinionated and it adds risk to the build knowing i need to make sure mason makes it back to work on time.
I'll give this another go and post a different thread that reaches out to stroker guys and what combo works for them.
I am electrical and computer savvy, engine building is easy if you do it right,, the knowledge of what works is way opinionated and it adds risk to the build knowing i need to make sure mason makes it back to work on time.
I'll give this another go and post a different thread that reaches out to stroker guys and what combo works for them.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Clayton on July 07, 2013, 01:26:02 PM
Post by: Clayton on July 07, 2013, 01:26:02 PM
Quote from: jcassity;418145
ok, i appreciate it
scott cassity
hc83 box 70A
gap mills wv 24941
where did the cam come from,,? let me know how much
It came from 89 stang afaik. I just pulled it from the mustang i got a while back for parts
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 07, 2013, 09:00:35 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 07, 2013, 09:00:35 PM
Is the 97 explorer internal or externally balanced and what will i need by way of parts to address this?
I believe the explorer is internal ballance, will i need that flywheel that came with the truck?
after a few days off and on of gathering insight on this, i have concluded the time contraints we are under doesnt make a 331 roll out of our garage on time, with the sone in another state and having limited time to do this work, we are not going to stroke.,, i just need to call mason and let him know im out on the idea.
we will shoot for Mass air though as advised, and do a 306,,,
i posted a wtb topic on this and really need to score compatible parts for this,, making my MKVII HO EEC useless.
if we cant get the mass air stuff together in the next 3 weeks, mass air is out and the HO MKVII is in,
thanks everyone,, will update as i can,, i really hope someone out there has this mass air stuff, looks fairly simple to do up if Erics write up is correct. ,,coolcats.net that is.
I believe the explorer is internal ballance, will i need that flywheel that came with the truck?
after a few days off and on of gathering insight on this, i have concluded the time contraints we are under doesnt make a 331 roll out of our garage on time, with the sone in another state and having limited time to do this work, we are not going to stroke.,, i just need to call mason and let him know im out on the idea.
we will shoot for Mass air though as advised, and do a 306,,,
i posted a wtb topic on this and really need to score compatible parts for this,, making my MKVII HO EEC useless.
if we cant get the mass air stuff together in the next 3 weeks, mass air is out and the HO MKVII is in,
thanks everyone,, will update as i can,, i really hope someone out there has this mass air stuff, looks fairly simple to do up if Erics write up is correct. ,,coolcats.net that is.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: 87 T-BIRD on July 07, 2013, 09:16:30 PM
Post by: 87 T-BIRD on July 07, 2013, 09:16:30 PM
Hey jcassity, it is simple to make up and install your own harness for converting the vehicle to mass. All you need is the connector some wire, a computer, meter and induction tubing, wiring schematic along with a little time. I will have to also say that the 347 issues were fixed years ago and thats what have been running in my bird for years at the track shifting it at 7000 rpm. I will have to look but I might still have my hand written diagrahm laying in my tool box.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on July 07, 2013, 09:18:38 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 07, 2013, 09:18:38 PM
the balance depends on motor/stroker kit.
82 and earlier are 28oz. 82 up are 50oz. just buy a stock replacement if you plan on doing a new stroker kit later. if your using an aod, parts should.be identical to stock.
82 and earlier are 28oz. 82 up are 50oz. just buy a stock replacement if you plan on doing a new stroker kit later. if your using an aod, parts should.be identical to stock.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: 87 T-BIRD on July 07, 2013, 09:29:39 PM
Post by: 87 T-BIRD on July 07, 2013, 09:29:39 PM
Quote from: Haystack;418211
the balance depends on motor/stroker kit.
82 and earlier are 28oz. 82 up are 50oz. just buy a stock replacement if you plan on doing a new stroker kit later. if your using an aod, parts should.be identical to stock.
Didn't think about that until you said somehting. Engine balance is crucial, mine is balanced at 28oz.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 07, 2013, 09:53:01 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 07, 2013, 09:53:01 PM
yeah,, that was my last question...
did i read this right,,,
can i use my son's existing flywheel or the explorer flywheel on this 306 build?
again,, the stroker is out,, we dont have the time for it.
..
.
and,,, can i graft the explorer fuel rail into the tbird fuel line easily,, I believe my 19lb injectors i have are all fine but 1 is a tiny bit damaged,,,,
did i read this right,,,
can i use my son's existing flywheel or the explorer flywheel on this 306 build?
again,, the stroker is out,, we dont have the time for it.
..
.
and,,, can i graft the explorer fuel rail into the tbird fuel line easily,, I believe my 19lb injectors i have are all fine but 1 is a tiny bit damaged,,,,
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 07, 2013, 10:04:41 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 07, 2013, 10:04:41 PM
The balance is a simple thing and needs to be dun anyway. What is the BIG DEAL!! There is all kinds of dampers and wheels to satisfy this. As a computer savvy guy Jay can install a stand alone and TUNE HIS HART OUT. The stock stuff sucks any way and a stand alone in my view simplifies the whole job in a nutshell. Running a small ford you need all the HP you can get because of the limited HP they produce. If building an engine of this type i agree stay stock with an overbore to clean things up and carry on. Either way you are limited but i would build a 347 if i was doing it. But to simplify the issue stay with a stock .030 over 306 and call it a day. just me THANKS.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 07, 2013, 10:10:01 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 07, 2013, 10:10:01 PM
im asking if there is a need to be discussing the flywheel or not.
I dont remember if the explorer motor i bought (which has not been delivered yet) has a flywheel.
Can i use my tbrid flywheel on the new motor,,, meaning earlier i asked "is the explorer internally balanced or not?
I dont remember if the explorer motor i bought (which has not been delivered yet) has a flywheel.
Can i use my tbrid flywheel on the new motor,,, meaning earlier i asked "is the explorer internally balanced or not?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 07, 2013, 10:23:46 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 07, 2013, 10:23:46 PM
As far as i know they are externally balanced. Not only that they have different flywheel diameters and gear counts. If memory serves me 157 and 164 comes to mind. And if you mix them up the starter wont engauge. A different bell housing is necessary. I ran in to this many years ago so it is a little fuzzy to me. But as far as i know the 302 is externally balanced.
68-80 the 302 used the 28 oz imbalance
81 and later uses the 50 oz imbalance
68-80 the 302 used the 28 oz imbalance
81 and later uses the 50 oz imbalance
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 07, 2013, 10:28:01 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 07, 2013, 10:28:01 PM
WHAT!
why a different bell housing?
if thats the case,, im screwed,, say it isnt so tom!
i need this engine because it had a lot of goodies to donate to another future build for chance my youngest boy.
this block is suppose to be the block that goes back into my oldest sons tbird.
if your right,, im at a loss for words.
why a different bell housing?
if thats the case,, im screwed,, say it isnt so tom!
i need this engine because it had a lot of goodies to donate to another future build for chance my youngest boy.
this block is suppose to be the block that goes back into my oldest sons tbird.
if your right,, im at a loss for words.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 07, 2013, 10:44:38 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 07, 2013, 10:44:38 PM
Jay,
I just did a quick Google search and even checked parts store websites and it looks like the balancer is a 50 oz. Jumped on the Corral and the guys there that have swapped over simply reused their balancer and flex or flywheel so that would definitely lead me to believe that they are 50 oz imbalance which makes sense. So to answer your question the Explorer motors are externally balanced at 50 oz just like all the other 302W from about '82 and up.
Someone on here or one of the Mustang sites will have a single 19 lb/hr injector for cheap so I would look at that route. You can score a lot of parts you need here:
http://www.car-part.com
I got my MAF and fuel rails for dirt cheap. You may even be able to find an A9L on there but I usually have better luck on the Mustang forums. One place that has the Mass Air conversion kit is Pro-M and its everything you need including the pins already installed on the wires. For $50 I think I would just buy this and be done with it then all you need is the MAF and EEC:
http://www.promracing.com/parts-accessories/wiring-adapters/mass-air-conversion-harness.html
The guys are correct that you can get more out of the motor with a stand alone but if you are wanting to just fire the car up and drive it then get an Mass Air EEC and the whole thing will be plug and play. I would not waste a dime on a stand alone on a 302 or 306 motor with the cam and heads you are going to run. If you go the stroker route later and up the anti with some heads and a good cam then it might be worth the stand alone.
Darren
I just did a quick Google search and even checked parts store websites and it looks like the balancer is a 50 oz. Jumped on the Corral and the guys there that have swapped over simply reused their balancer and flex or flywheel so that would definitely lead me to believe that they are 50 oz imbalance which makes sense. So to answer your question the Explorer motors are externally balanced at 50 oz just like all the other 302W from about '82 and up.
Someone on here or one of the Mustang sites will have a single 19 lb/hr injector for cheap so I would look at that route. You can score a lot of parts you need here:
http://www.car-part.com
I got my MAF and fuel rails for dirt cheap. You may even be able to find an A9L on there but I usually have better luck on the Mustang forums. One place that has the Mass Air conversion kit is Pro-M and its everything you need including the pins already installed on the wires. For $50 I think I would just buy this and be done with it then all you need is the MAF and EEC:
http://www.promracing.com/parts-accessories/wiring-adapters/mass-air-conversion-harness.html
The guys are correct that you can get more out of the motor with a stand alone but if you are wanting to just fire the car up and drive it then get an Mass Air EEC and the whole thing will be plug and play. I would not waste a dime on a stand alone on a 302 or 306 motor with the cam and heads you are going to run. If you go the stroker route later and up the anti with some heads and a good cam then it might be worth the stand alone.
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 07, 2013, 10:44:56 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 07, 2013, 10:44:56 PM
Jay i think all late model T5 bells were 157 TEETH. But i remember some older units had different bell housings and gear teeth count. If memory serves me the EXPLORER has a 157 tooth count. I ran in to this a while back and it threw me for a LOOP. DCE corrected it for me and if i am correct all the later units that were sticks carry the same wheel and bell. I am not sure about the auto trannys . But i think they are 157 as well. Make sure you mock up everything before calling it a day. You dont want to install the wrong wheel and or bell setup. I know for sure the older small fords has a couple of different wheels and bell housings. Make sure you check it out thoroughly. My gut feelings is the late model auto uses a 50OZ wheel and a standard 157 tooth count.
Stacks corrected me on the 164 tooth count Sorry!!
Stacks corrected me on the 164 tooth count Sorry!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 07, 2013, 10:51:46 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 07, 2013, 10:51:46 PM
Darren as you point out all the late models are 50 OZ if memory serves me. I respect your comment on the 9 ECM but a stand alone system is worth every penny. Even on a stock motor tuning is simple and straight forward. All the built in GLITCHES of the early ECM design is gone. I do agree that it is a cheap way to do it. But dealing with Ford OBD 1 systems is a real c. Granted you make a great point dollar wise but to add some SIZZLE to his project a stand alone will be a PLUS. Thanks
PRO/RACE #64270, PRO/SPORT #34270 and PRO/STREET #24270 - These dampers are designed for ‘81 and later 5.0 engines requiring a 50 in. oz. damper counterweight. Note that the stock damper is 6.38” in diameter while our dampers are 6.61” in diameter. As a result, there are some instances where the lower water pump bolt contacts the damper and some instances where the damper may contact the pump housing and/or timing chain cover. This is usually found on ’95 covers. Spot facing the bolt pad on the water pump and some minor grinding will alleviate the interference. This damper includes a sleeve and pulley spacers. See notes above ref: #64269, #34269 and #24269 for specifics.
PRO/RACE #64270, PRO/SPORT #34270 and PRO/STREET #24270 - These dampers are designed for ‘81 and later 5.0 engines requiring a 50 in. oz. damper counterweight. Note that the stock damper is 6.38” in diameter while our dampers are 6.61” in diameter. As a result, there are some instances where the lower water pump bolt contacts the damper and some instances where the damper may contact the pump housing and/or timing chain cover. This is usually found on ’95 covers. Spot facing the bolt pad on the water pump and some minor grinding will alleviate the interference. This damper includes a sleeve and pulley spacers. See notes above ref: #64269, #34269 and #24269 for specifics.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 07, 2013, 11:01:50 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 07, 2013, 11:01:50 PM
Good luck JAY and check out every aspect of this project. These external balanced engines are a pain in the A$$. But 50 OZ is the ticket from what i can remember. Good luck and check it out carefully . Know the years of the engines and the type of balance you need. Cheers!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on July 07, 2013, 11:59:18 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 07, 2013, 11:59:18 PM
the bellhousing is the same. many many stang.guys run junk.yard explorer motors.
it IS 50ozimbalance, like the bird/cats.
the 157 or 164 tooth flywheel is neither here nore there. they are interchangeable. its only the bell housing for the trans that matters. aod = 164 tooth, t-5 =157 tooth. its just the outer diameter of the flywheel.
my aod flywheel was 164 tooth, as are the 94-04 t-5's. there is also a slightly different offset in the ring gear, but your talking 3/8" difference. at worst you end up with a new starter.
if your running the stock aod, use a stock flywheel and everything lines up fine.
just start swapping parts and it will all drop in like its from the factory. your over thinking.things.
it IS 50ozimbalance, like the bird/cats.
the 157 or 164 tooth flywheel is neither here nore there. they are interchangeable. its only the bell housing for the trans that matters. aod = 164 tooth, t-5 =157 tooth. its just the outer diameter of the flywheel.
my aod flywheel was 164 tooth, as are the 94-04 t-5's. there is also a slightly different offset in the ring gear, but your talking 3/8" difference. at worst you end up with a new starter.
if your running the stock aod, use a stock flywheel and everything lines up fine.
just start swapping parts and it will all drop in like its from the factory. your over thinking.things.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on July 08, 2013, 12:09:38 AM
Post by: Haystack on July 08, 2013, 12:09:38 AM
to further clarify, pre 80's cars and full sized cars commonly swapped blocks and transmissions from th e trucks. after the early 80's, things were more or less standardized.
the trucks 1980 and newer all ran 164 tooth flywheels, regardless of transmissions. I know because I'm running a 164 tooth flywheel from a f-150 right now. they were also heavier to help increase low end torque, which is why there is a 3/8" difference in starters.
since I didn't want to order a custom 164 tooth flywheel to match the v-6 trans and bell housing I'm running, I bought.the one for a manual f-150, as well as the clutch and pressure plate. I also had to run the clutch"mini" starter which I source from a 1996 f-150 with a stick. this put everything right where it needs to be.
if I had a stock fox t-5 setup, then I could have just used my stock starter, and bought stang parts, because it used a 157 tooth flywheel.
the trucks 1980 and newer all ran 164 tooth flywheels, regardless of transmissions. I know because I'm running a 164 tooth flywheel from a f-150 right now. they were also heavier to help increase low end torque, which is why there is a 3/8" difference in starters.
since I didn't want to order a custom 164 tooth flywheel to match the v-6 trans and bell housing I'm running, I bought.the one for a manual f-150, as well as the clutch and pressure plate. I also had to run the clutch"mini" starter which I source from a 1996 f-150 with a stick. this put everything right where it needs to be.
if I had a stock fox t-5 setup, then I could have just used my stock starter, and bought stang parts, because it used a 157 tooth flywheel.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 08, 2013, 05:56:53 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 08, 2013, 05:56:53 AM
Correct me if i am WRONG STACKS you brought up the out of balance weight ISSUE. All 302 engines past 81 were 50 OZ if i am correct??? All i did was include flywheel tooth count. I am sorry for including it. I know everything is a drop in until you hit the KEY and you either hear the starter grinding away or just making wizer noise. I figured the auto tranny units were the same. I just transposed the tooth count. It happens sorry. I have on numerous occasions posted i am not an AUTO TRANNY GUY and do not claim to be one. It has been a long time since i have dealt with a 302 so i should have let you handle it. I just do not want Jay having any issues with miss matched parts. It HAPPENS from time to time.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 08, 2013, 07:49:02 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 08, 2013, 07:49:02 AM
If later we do a stand alone system,,
what role would the mass air pieces parts play...
as in will the mass air meter be required or not.
i thought the mega squirt systems reference the tps, wide band o2 and the coolant temp sensor as thier ref input signals.
what role would the mass air pieces parts play...
as in will the mass air meter be required or not.
i thought the mega squirt systems reference the tps, wide band o2 and the coolant temp sensor as thier ref input signals.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 08, 2013, 12:20:20 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 08, 2013, 12:20:20 PM
Remember, even if some of the mass air parts are not needed they will not drop in value as they are getting harder to find not easier.
Darren
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 08, 2013, 08:31:13 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 08, 2013, 08:31:13 PM
darren , dont i want an AUTOMATIC transmission A9P eec?
I was wondering why a9L was suggested above,thats all,, just asking.
I was wondering why a9L was suggested above,thats all,, just asking.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 08, 2013, 10:10:20 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 08, 2013, 10:10:20 PM
Yes. A9L is for a standard trans car.
Darren
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 08, 2013, 11:00:17 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 08, 2013, 11:00:17 PM
Do I need a special air tube for the maf sensor etc.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 09, 2013, 09:25:57 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 09, 2013, 09:25:57 AM
If you are going to run the 19 lb/hr injectors then the stock MAF will work. The mass air meters are not calibrated to the injectors in stock applications. The EEC has tables in it for the size of injector that the car came with from the factory. The EEC also has a MAF transfer function in it that directly correlates to the mass air meter. this is why when folks stab bigger injectors in a car or a different stock MAF the car runs bad.
With all that being said if you are going to run an A9P you need a stock MAF and 19 lb/hr injectors if you are not going to custom tune the EEC with a chip or a piggy back of some sort. You can run bigger injectors with an aftermarket mass air meter like a C&L or Pro-M. They work by modifying the signal from the mass air meter is being modified to work with the stock injector tables in the EEC. This works but a tune is always better.
Pretty good thread here on what MAF's orther than the stock Mustang unit that will work with the A9P:
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?32890-Explorer-MAF&
I would send thunderjet302 a PM and see if he is still comfortable with that list or start searching the internet to see what anyone else has used or knows works.
Darren
Darren
With all that being said if you are going to run an A9P you need a stock MAF and 19 lb/hr injectors if you are not going to custom tune the EEC with a chip or a piggy back of some sort. You can run bigger injectors with an aftermarket mass air meter like a C&L or Pro-M. They work by modifying the signal from the mass air meter is being modified to work with the stock injector tables in the EEC. This works but a tune is always better.
Pretty good thread here on what MAF's orther than the stock Mustang unit that will work with the A9P:
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?32890-Explorer-MAF&
I would send thunderjet302 a PM and see if he is still comfortable with that list or start searching the internet to see what anyone else has used or knows works.
Darren
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Masejoer on July 09, 2013, 12:57:50 PM
Post by: Masejoer on July 09, 2013, 12:57:50 PM
Some good information popped into this thread.
What I would do with the mass air decision is pick up a factory 55mm to start. They are very cheap. You can get the car running, then mess with other sizes, which will start to make the car behave a little differently. I keep a stock unit on hand just for troubleshooting, in case I ever have another problem. The mass air body/sensor, and injectors are easy to swap out, so it's nice to have one available. I'd also just pick up an A9P EEC, (re)pin the two or three wires in the car, and just hook it up. Mass air is a lot easier to get running well than speed density (it helped make FI Mustangs easy to modify, and grow a huge aftermarket).
Sticking with a 302/306, the car should be fine with 19lb. You can change out the mass air sensor and injectors at a later time, after you verify the motor runs well. With a 342/347 (I'd skip a 327/331 like others recommend in this thread - wear isn't really an issue), you'd need to use 24lb injectors, or keep the rpm's below 4000. There's no fun in that. If the engine is going to get bored out, you already need new other parts. I'd jump straight to a 347. Instead of making 300hp with stock parts, you could be making closer to 330hp (and have a LOT more torque down low). The difference would probably be like going from 2.73 gears to 3.08 or 3.08 to 3.55.
As for balance, unless it's a stock shortblock being left alone, I'd get everything balanced by a good machine shop. Even a new stroker kit won't be as well balanced as if a shop were to balance the rotating assembly with the specific balancer and flywheel that you plan on using. Engines are supposed to spin, not wobble.The less wobble you can get, the better it runs and the longer everything will last (bearings, and/or engine block).
What I would do with the mass air decision is pick up a factory 55mm to start. They are very cheap. You can get the car running, then mess with other sizes, which will start to make the car behave a little differently. I keep a stock unit on hand just for troubleshooting, in case I ever have another problem. The mass air body/sensor, and injectors are easy to swap out, so it's nice to have one available. I'd also just pick up an A9P EEC, (re)pin the two or three wires in the car, and just hook it up. Mass air is a lot easier to get running well than speed density (it helped make FI Mustangs easy to modify, and grow a huge aftermarket).
Sticking with a 302/306, the car should be fine with 19lb. You can change out the mass air sensor and injectors at a later time, after you verify the motor runs well. With a 342/347 (I'd skip a 327/331 like others recommend in this thread - wear isn't really an issue), you'd need to use 24lb injectors, or keep the rpm's below 4000. There's no fun in that. If the engine is going to get bored out, you already need new other parts. I'd jump straight to a 347. Instead of making 300hp with stock parts, you could be making closer to 330hp (and have a LOT more torque down low). The difference would probably be like going from 2.73 gears to 3.08 or 3.08 to 3.55.
As for balance, unless it's a stock shortblock being left alone, I'd get everything balanced by a good machine shop. Even a new stroker kit won't be as well balanced as if a shop were to balance the rotating assembly with the specific balancer and flywheel that you plan on using. Engines are supposed to spin, not wobble.The less wobble you can get, the better it runs and the longer everything will last (bearings, and/or engine block).
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 01:30:50 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 01:30:50 PM
some info is getting skipped over.
car has explorer parts on it now on the upper.. excluding heads.,, has dual exhuast as well.
pic below of the warehouse full of goodies, found a lightning in there and a 3.8 SC engine as well.
car has explorer parts on it now on the upper.. excluding heads.,, has dual exhuast as well.
pic below of the warehouse full of goodies, found a lightning in there and a 3.8 SC engine as well.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 01:33:45 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 01:33:45 PM
here is the engine i bought, need to post the answer to the question i got on sbf as well,
these are GT heads.
Donor explorer was a total loss left rear impact, 140k miles on odometer
Need to finalize on the correct compatable header to use so it bolts right up to our existing 2 1/2'' exhaust
(im sure the answer is somewhere in here)...???
these are GT heads.
Donor explorer was a total loss left rear impact, 140k miles on odometer
Need to finalize on the correct compatable header to use so it bolts right up to our existing 2 1/2'' exhaust
(im sure the answer is somewhere in here)...???
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 01:35:54 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 01:35:54 PM
a few more porn shots
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 01:38:19 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 01:38:19 PM
those exhaust headers look very restrictive,, even as bad as the mustang shorties.
so do i have the correct engine for the GT series head?
what header works best for these heads that bolt right up to our dual exhaust?
so do i have the correct engine for the GT series head?
what header works best for these heads that bolt right up to our dual exhaust?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 01:40:02 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 01:40:02 PM
also, will i have to contend to the oil filter fittment?>
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 09, 2013, 03:36:24 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 09, 2013, 03:36:24 PM
From what I see, this is an early build 97 engine. I could be totally wrong, and you won't know for sure til you pull the upper intake off and see an egr hole in the center or not. You'll have to MAKE a lower radiator hose (not really a big deal) and you'll have to fit the hose from the cooler to the water pump a little differently and with very good hose clamps. If it is an early 97, you'll have regular GT40 heads (not P heads) and you'll be able to use ordinary Mustang headers.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: vinnietbird on July 09, 2013, 03:37:55 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on July 09, 2013, 03:37:55 PM
If they are P heads, BK unequal length shorty headers work great, just use plug wires with 90 degree plug boots. no worries. As far as the oil filter, remove all of the explorer stuff, and then the fitting that it all bolts to. Buy an adapter fitting (mine was about $12, and it'll screw right into the block, and then you can use the standard oil filter that 5.0 Foxes use. Easy stuff.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: vinnietbird on July 09, 2013, 03:39:44 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on July 09, 2013, 03:39:44 PM
Use all of the accessories from the current 5.0 in the car, including the balancer, timing pointer, distributor. strip down to the long block, and put it back together as if you were doing a Fox motor.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 09, 2013, 03:42:28 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 09, 2013, 03:42:28 PM
I kept mine. It was easier than trying to get the tube out of the middle of the cooler plate. The FL820s filter on the Explorer is better than an FL1A anyway, and more accessible, too.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 09, 2013, 04:06:07 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 09, 2013, 04:06:07 PM
Here is a good write up on how to identify which heads this motor has:
http://www.fiveohinfo.com/performance/gt40-gt40p.html
I would bet on them being the GT40 heads which means you will have a much easier time with the header selection. As for the oil filter, you need to remover that horrid Explorer adapter. The adapter that is on the 302W in the Foxes will not be there as the Explorer adapter uses those threads to secure it to the block. This is evident by the bolt head in the center of the adapter. You can get the correct one so you can use an FL1A or similar oil filter at a Ford dealer or most parts stores or online like this:
http://www.jegs.com/p/Dart/Dart-Oil-Filter-Adapter-for-Ford-Small-Block/2826046/10002/-1
So to clarify, the car already has the Explorer upper and lower? I do have one other question, why are you going to bore a 140K mile roller motor? Unless you really need to I would just do the cam swap, new timing chain, do a valve job, put new valve springs on the heads, install some nice roller rockers, get some shorty equal length headers (if you have the GT40 heads), check the rod and main bearings, and put a new stock oil pump in the bottom end. Button that bitch up and put it in the car. I have seen stock bottom end cars go over 200K with no issues what so ever. Save your money for the stroker machine work, why spend money twice if it is not needed.
Darren
http://www.fiveohinfo.com/performance/gt40-gt40p.html
I would bet on them being the GT40 heads which means you will have a much easier time with the header selection. As for the oil filter, you need to remover that horrid Explorer adapter. The adapter that is on the 302W in the Foxes will not be there as the Explorer adapter uses those threads to secure it to the block. This is evident by the bolt head in the center of the adapter. You can get the correct one so you can use an FL1A or similar oil filter at a Ford dealer or most parts stores or online like this:
http://www.jegs.com/p/Dart/Dart-Oil-Filter-Adapter-for-Ford-Small-Block/2826046/10002/-1
So to clarify, the car already has the Explorer upper and lower? I do have one other question, why are you going to bore a 140K mile roller motor? Unless you really need to I would just do the cam swap, new timing chain, do a valve job, put new valve springs on the heads, install some nice roller rockers, get some shorty equal length headers (if you have the GT40 heads), check the rod and main bearings, and put a new stock oil pump in the bottom end. Button that bitch up and put it in the car. I have seen stock bottom end cars go over 200K with no issues what so ever. Save your money for the stroker machine work, why spend money twice if it is not needed.
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 04:41:41 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 04:41:41 PM
in my early posting here,
the objective is to get this explorer block in my garage so i can get it down to the machine shop for any prep work. My son will still be in another state during this time.
when he pulls up to the garage, we are going to build the exlorer block out with new short block parts.
we put the GT heads back on this block.
Transfer his upper / lower / TB over to this new block because for the simple reason these were christmas gifts to him.
i am trying to get ahead of the game so we have machine work done before he comes home,, we have a 5 day window.
Are you all saying there is no reason to bore 30 over? if so, we can skip that also. we figured if we cant stroke the up and down,, we can stroke it "out" for a little bit more.
will the explorer have roller rockers?
Are there any PTV issues forcasted if we shave the heads? get them down to like 60cc or so thus making them kinda cobra?
I have a set of BBK short headers if you all think those will work ok.?
i agree on saving cost so we build this motor to cure bottom end tapping, i guess he rolls out the car with the only change being he added GT heads.
the objective is to get this explorer block in my garage so i can get it down to the machine shop for any prep work. My son will still be in another state during this time.
when he pulls up to the garage, we are going to build the exlorer block out with new short block parts.
we put the GT heads back on this block.
Transfer his upper / lower / TB over to this new block because for the simple reason these were christmas gifts to him.
i am trying to get ahead of the game so we have machine work done before he comes home,, we have a 5 day window.
Are you all saying there is no reason to bore 30 over? if so, we can skip that also. we figured if we cant stroke the up and down,, we can stroke it "out" for a little bit more.
will the explorer have roller rockers?
Are there any PTV issues forcasted if we shave the heads? get them down to like 60cc or so thus making them kinda cobra?
I have a set of BBK short headers if you all think those will work ok.?
i agree on saving cost so we build this motor to cure bottom end tapping, i guess he rolls out the car with the only change being he added GT heads.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: vinnietbird on July 09, 2013, 05:33:53 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on July 09, 2013, 05:33:53 PM
No roller rockers come with that engine. Just the stamped versions like our cars had when new. If the block looks good, have the machine shop clean it up, install new rings and bearings, and call the block good. If you want to shave the heads a little, I doubt you will have any issues at all with the H.O cam as the explorer engine has valve reliefs in the pistons. Going from a 302 to a 306 isn't going to be a big deal, but it will add costs that aren't necessary if the engine looks good inside. Install new valve springs on the heads as the stockers aren't made for high revving fun. Too soft. The BBK headers should be just fine. they work with mine and I have the GT40-P heads.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 05:58:27 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 05:58:27 PM
Id rather use the stock exporer ones with .003 shims under them,,
anyone disagree?
his E7 springs have at least 200k on them,,
anyone disagree?
his E7 springs have at least 200k on them,,
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 06:05:34 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 06:05:34 PM
so the debate here is kinda getting fluffy on my end...
Several have said to use the MKVii sd eec with an ho cam
others say to switch out to mass air , new eec and ho cam
what the hell, we can do everyting and save mass air till the very end to see "if" there is a significat difference.
this will be fun actually, see the two instances and how they pan out against each other.
i have a section of road we can actually use to do short 1100ft start/finish passes with a stop watch and see if SD allows the car to get from point a to point be quicker or slower than mass air.
make sense?
Several have said to use the MKVii sd eec with an ho cam
others say to switch out to mass air , new eec and ho cam
what the hell, we can do everyting and save mass air till the very end to see "if" there is a significat difference.
this will be fun actually, see the two instances and how they pan out against each other.
i have a section of road we can actually use to do short 1100ft start/finish passes with a stop watch and see if SD allows the car to get from point a to point be quicker or slower than mass air.
make sense?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 09, 2013, 06:22:22 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 09, 2013, 06:22:22 PM
Sounds good. I'm running SD with a MarkVII PCM, and 19's. I'm reasonably happy with it: My combo: 96 explorer with a 90 HO cam, changed the timing set (Explorer didn't have double roller when I opened it up), FRPP oil pump, BBK 1 5/8" unequal length, 87 HO EGR spacer, 96 Explorer oil cooler, 2.5" off road H-Pipe, 2" after-cat with dynomax super turbos (will upgrade to 2.5" when budget allows). 3G charging upgrade, AOD wide ratio mod with extra clutches, and a 7.5" 3.73:1 limited slip. I'll worry about tuning/MAF when I get enough money to get heads, injectors and a cam. Mine had 120k on it when I tore it open, I didn't even open the cylinders. Original bottom was tight and cylinder leak-down was perfect, so I left the crank in and the heads on.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: vinnietbird on July 09, 2013, 06:42:42 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on July 09, 2013, 06:42:42 PM
Save Mass Air for later. As far as springs, I'm talking after market.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 06:57:31 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 06:57:31 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;418305
I kept mine. It was easier than trying to get the tube out of the middle of the cooler plate. The FL820s filter on the Explorer is better than an FL1A anyway, and more accessible, too.
i looked at my 20th,,
i see what you mean, leaving the oil filter set up like it is puts the filter in a much easier to get to location.,, granted a lower rad hose is to be mod'd.
I dono,, we'll have to see on this.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 09, 2013, 07:57:08 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 09, 2013, 07:57:08 PM
I would just leave the bottom end alone. Just check the top of the cylinders for any noticeable lip. Chances are you will still see cross hatch marks on the cylinder walls. The factory rings are low drag and wear very well.
Spend your money on some good aftermarket springs for the HO cam. I would use some Isky 8005's if they would install at the proper height. Great all around spring and will work up to about 0.600" of lift if memory serves me right. They have high seat and open pressures but that is what you want with a roller cam and some good roller rockers. See if someone here has some 1.7 ratio bolt down rockers or search the mustang sites.
With the $$$ you don't spend on machine work you can put it into the springs, roller rockers, new oil pump, etc. I really don't think shaving the heads is worth the performance gains you will see on a small inch motor. You have to spin small displacement motors up around 7 to 8 grand to make up for the lack of cubes.
Install the MAF now, you will have the time and $$$ to do it and the car will have better manners especially if you decide to install a larger cam later down the line. It sounds like your going to do it anyhow so why waste time and energy with even older technology.
Getting back to the time frame in which you have to do this project why wouldn't you just install the correct oil filter adapter and not have to mess with the modding the lower radiator hose?
Anyhow, you have all the information here you need so I will wish you luck and most of all have fun with this!
Darren
Spend your money on some good aftermarket springs for the HO cam. I would use some Isky 8005's if they would install at the proper height. Great all around spring and will work up to about 0.600" of lift if memory serves me right. They have high seat and open pressures but that is what you want with a roller cam and some good roller rockers. See if someone here has some 1.7 ratio bolt down rockers or search the mustang sites.
With the $$$ you don't spend on machine work you can put it into the springs, roller rockers, new oil pump, etc. I really don't think shaving the heads is worth the performance gains you will see on a small inch motor. You have to spin small displacement motors up around 7 to 8 grand to make up for the lack of cubes.
Install the MAF now, you will have the time and $$$ to do it and the car will have better manners especially if you decide to install a larger cam later down the line. It sounds like your going to do it anyhow so why waste time and energy with even older technology.
Getting back to the time frame in which you have to do this project why wouldn't you just install the correct oil filter adapter and not have to mess with the modding the lower radiator hose?
Anyhow, you have all the information here you need so I will wish you luck and most of all have fun with this!
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 09:14:03 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2013, 09:14:03 PM
well,
my son wants to go through the drill of the rebuild, if we dont bother the bottom end, he wont experince it.
i see your point(s) and i agree.
will post a thread here for some 1.7's
the only rollers i have are 1.6's with studed 289HP heads on my other 306.
my son wants to go through the drill of the rebuild, if we dont bother the bottom end, he wont experince it.
i see your point(s) and i agree.
will post a thread here for some 1.7's
the only rollers i have are 1.6's with studed 289HP heads on my other 306.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 09, 2013, 11:17:07 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 09, 2013, 11:17:07 PM
I completely understand with him wanting to build a motor as its a good experience and it feels really good to be able to do that and drive it around. Just remember that if you guys decide to assemble the short block yourselves to read up on how to correctly set the thrust bearing clearance as this is one thing that alot of people do not either know how to do or simply do not do it.
Darren
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 10, 2013, 11:08:35 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 10, 2013, 11:08:35 AM
thanks, i am in in that catagory
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 10, 2013, 03:29:50 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 10, 2013, 03:29:50 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;418286
If you are going to run the 19 lb/hr injectors then the stock MAF will work. The mass air meters are not calibrated to the injectors in stock applications. The EEC has tables in it for the size of injector that the car came with from the factory. The EEC also has a MAF transfer function in it that directly correlates to the mass air meter. this is why when folks stab bigger injectors in a car or a different stock MAF the car runs bad.
With all that being said if you are going to run an A9P you need a stock MAF and 19 lb/hr injectors if you are not going to custom tune the EEC with a chip or a piggy back of some sort. You can run bigger injectors with an aftermarket mass air meter like a C&L or Pro-M. They work by modifying the signal from the mass air meter is being modified to work with the stock injector tables in the EEC. This works but a tune is always better.
Pretty good thread here on what MAF's orther than the stock Mustang unit that will work with the A9P:
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?32890-Explorer-MAF&
I would send thunderjet302 a PM and see if he is still comfortable with that list or start searching the internet to see what anyone else has used or knows works.
Darren
Darren
Yes those MAF meters work fine if you're sticking with the stock 19lb injectors. I think I have one or two still kicking around the garage. If you want them just let me know. I've also got a set of 19lb injectors that I ran on my Thunderbird before swapping to 24lb injectors.
To make your Explorer swap simple:
Pull EVERYTHING off of the engine besides the heads. Timing cover, water pump, oil filter adapter, oil pan, oil pump, pump pickup, exhaust manifolds, DIS cam sensor, cam shaft, and upper and lower intake. Save the intake for another use (your car perhaps) and sell the other stuff or s it. Now install your HO cam, the timing cover and water pump from a Fox car, the oil pump, pickup and oil pan from a fox car, the intake from your son's car and 19lb injectors. That's it your done. It's really that simple. If the Explorer engine is going to stay stock than SD will work fine. If you want to swap to MAF you can. It take a whole hour and you have to run 4 wires. It really is stupid easy. Hell I think I've even got some EEC-IV pins around from when I MAF converted mine. You can have some for free as I'm pretty sure I can mail them in a standard envelope.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 10, 2013, 06:57:35 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 10, 2013, 06:57:35 PM
my son called summit,
he asked for a 97 explorer rebuild kit,,, summit had none.
quick solution is to "ask" for an 88 tbird rebuild kit with 30over pistons.
LOL, odd experinece,,, any comments?
thunderjet, **THANK YOU***, a totally did not consider that the eec wire swap would involve us needing some female pins. Yes,, send over the qty you think in need or im sure i can figure something out to get mass air going.
we plan roll out as speed density, then if time allots "TEMP" the mass air, check and verify it works, then make the mass air permanent.
we plan to use his christmas present upper and lower painted all prudy blue
i still have no idea why summit said they didnt have a rebuild kit for a 97explorer engine,, they said they carried up to 1995 only.../
summit said they could piece mill the kit together for the same price as what is shown on a 88 bird but i have wonder what in the hell is the difference.
he asked for a 97 explorer rebuild kit,,, summit had none.
quick solution is to "ask" for an 88 tbird rebuild kit with 30over pistons.
LOL, odd experinece,,, any comments?
thunderjet, **THANK YOU***, a totally did not consider that the eec wire swap would involve us needing some female pins. Yes,, send over the qty you think in need or im sure i can figure something out to get mass air going.
we plan roll out as speed density, then if time allots "TEMP" the mass air, check and verify it works, then make the mass air permanent.
we plan to use his christmas present upper and lower painted all prudy blue
i still have no idea why summit said they didnt have a rebuild kit for a 97explorer engine,, they said they carried up to 1995 only.../
summit said they could piece mill the kit together for the same price as what is shown on a 88 bird but i have wonder what in the hell is the difference.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 10, 2013, 08:56:39 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 10, 2013, 08:56:39 PM
Basically all you are going to be using from the Explorer short block is the block, crank, and rods. These are the same as the Fox 5.0 Mustang components so I would shop the parts that way.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-mhp174-311/overview/year/1993/make/ford/model/mustang
The trick is to call them and let them know what lower intake you will be running as the gaskets that come with the kit are for the stock lower. I believe the Explorer upper to lower is like a GT-40 and Cobra so those are dime a dozen gaskets and they should have no problem swapping those out for the stockers. Fel-Pro makes a nice lower intake to cylinder head gasket, 1250S3. The exhaust gaskets are gonna be garbage as well. See if they will upgrade them to some Fel-Pro 1415's. I would also suggest that you get the rubberized black pan gasket kit and the blue rubber valve cover gaskets with the steel core (reusable). Another good thing would be to upgrade the head gaskets to something like a 10112. I hate leaks so I spend money on good gaskets.
Anyhow, just some suggestions.
Darren
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-mhp174-311/overview/year/1993/make/ford/model/mustang
The trick is to call them and let them know what lower intake you will be running as the gaskets that come with the kit are for the stock lower. I believe the Explorer upper to lower is like a GT-40 and Cobra so those are dime a dozen gaskets and they should have no problem swapping those out for the stockers. Fel-Pro makes a nice lower intake to cylinder head gasket, 1250S3. The exhaust gaskets are gonna be garbage as well. See if they will upgrade them to some Fel-Pro 1415's. I would also suggest that you get the rubberized black pan gasket kit and the blue rubber valve cover gaskets with the steel core (reusable). Another good thing would be to upgrade the head gaskets to something like a 10112. I hate leaks so I spend money on good gaskets.
Anyhow, just some suggestions.
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 10, 2013, 09:05:05 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 10, 2013, 09:05:05 PM
i was just having the gasket discussion with mason,
is there any net gain in using copper head gaskets,, i will check in on the 10112 gaskets you mention.
should have the engine here friday so i can tear it down and inspect bearings ,
thanks everyone.
is there any net gain in using copper head gaskets,, i will check in on the 10112 gaskets you mention.
should have the engine here friday so i can tear it down and inspect bearings ,
thanks everyone.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 11, 2013, 07:21:38 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 11, 2013, 07:21:38 PM
I use the 10112 because its a bit thinner (0.039") and helps bump up the compression ratio and my motor is naturally aspirated. If I was going to add a power adder then I would run the 10111 (thickness is 0.041") as it has a steel inner ring which stands up to the abuse a little better. Both of these gaskets are a pre-flattened steel wire - steel core laminate gasket. Another option is the Fel-Pro 9333PT1 head gaskets and a lot of guys use them because they are cheaper and they do work. The reason I prefer the other two over this one is due to the fact it is a composition gasket is not a steel core gasket and the steel core gaskets are dimensionally more stable.
FRPP makes a great gasket that is in some people's opinion that cat's meow when it comes to steel ringed steel core laminate gaskets. The part number is M-6051-A302 and they are sold in pairs and cost about the same as the Fel-Pro's. The con is I have not seen a local parts store carry them where they will carry the Fel-Pro's.
Darren
Darren
FRPP makes a great gasket that is in some people's opinion that cat's meow when it comes to steel ringed steel core laminate gaskets. The part number is M-6051-A302 and they are sold in pairs and cost about the same as the Fel-Pro's. The con is I have not seen a local parts store carry them where they will carry the Fel-Pro's.
Darren
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 12, 2013, 08:18:56 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 12, 2013, 08:18:56 PM
Here's a couple shots to give an idea on how I've got my oil cooler connected. It may be important to point out that the hose between the cooler and the pump (1st pic) DOESN'T leak.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 12, 2013, 11:21:54 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 12, 2013, 11:21:54 PM
I wouldn't use copper head gaskets as they will leak unless the block and head surface are perfect, at least from what I've heard. I'm running the Fel-Pro 1011-2 head gaskets with my Edelbrock heads. They are nice gaskets but are a bit pricey.You can run the Fel-Pro 9333PT-1 head gaskets that most parts stores have in stock, which are stock HO replacement gaskets. They are good head gaskets and many guys run them with boost. I would recommend a set of ARP head bolts. They are much better than the stock bolts and inexpensive insurance against leaks.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 13, 2013, 09:13:13 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 13, 2013, 09:13:13 AM
foe, that doesnt look unreasonable,, nice mod.
now,, you said you "kept" the explorer oil adaptor which would show the oil filter right there near your lower hose,, i dont see a filter
now,, you said you "kept" the explorer oil adaptor which would show the oil filter right there near your lower hose,, i dont see a filter
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 13, 2013, 10:05:59 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 13, 2013, 10:05:59 AM
It's almost directly under the power steering pump
(http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31813&d=1364595649)
(http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31813&d=1364595649)
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 13, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 13, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
I'm not sure I would use a steel ring gasket between the block and an aluminum head but since the OP is going to have cast iron GT40's then either would work. The 9333PT-1's are a good gasket but I just prefer the steel laminate core for the reason I posted earlier. I forgot that there is a FRRP kit that basically services the heads and lower intake and it comes with ARP head bolts (says they can be used three (3) times):
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=1763
A little cheaper on Summit and they are in stock:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6051-a50
Darren
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=1763
A little cheaper on Summit and they are in stock:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6051-a50
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 14, 2013, 12:55:56 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 14, 2013, 12:55:56 AM
we are prob gonna buy parts monday
how does this look....
1- short block rebuild for 1988 tbird 302 w/ .030 over pistons with valve reliefs, std bearings, timing set ect
2- Head gasket kit for a 97 ford explorer which will have to come with everything from the heads on up to include the better headgaskets mentioned.
3- new fuel pump (need to find the source to something not china knock off)~!!!!!!!!!!
4- gapless ring kit for the top compression ring
5- roller rockers with needle bearings 1.7 pedatal (machine shop says crane has a good set for 200 or so dollars.,, id prefer steel roller rockers
6- have heads bowled out, valve guides worked over with bronze inserts, milled .010 down, block checked and line bored, bore block to 306, oil galleys de-flashed and cleaned ect
7- transmission front seal
8- fluids everywhere
9- new oil pump
10-new water pump
11- graft in modified lower radiator hose
12-new radiator
13-new fan clutch
14- new hoses everywhere
15- new serpentine
16- new oem TFI and Stator (if like hell i can find any)
17- *possible new AFPR but ive never done one on these cars yet, not sure what brand to trust
18- fuel filter
19- rear gear gasket and fluid (document actual rear gear
20- couple cans undercoat to add above fuel tank
how does this look....
1- short block rebuild for 1988 tbird 302 w/ .030 over pistons with valve reliefs, std bearings, timing set ect
2- Head gasket kit for a 97 ford explorer which will have to come with everything from the heads on up to include the better headgaskets mentioned.
3- new fuel pump (need to find the source to something not china knock off)~!!!!!!!!!!
4- gapless ring kit for the top compression ring
5- roller rockers with needle bearings 1.7 pedatal (machine shop says crane has a good set for 200 or so dollars.,, id prefer steel roller rockers
6- have heads bowled out, valve guides worked over with bronze inserts, milled .010 down, block checked and line bored, bore block to 306, oil galleys de-flashed and cleaned ect
7- transmission front seal
8- fluids everywhere
9- new oil pump
10-new water pump
11- graft in modified lower radiator hose
12-new radiator
13-new fan clutch
14- new hoses everywhere
15- new serpentine
16- new oem TFI and Stator (if like hell i can find any)
17- *possible new AFPR but ive never done one on these cars yet, not sure what brand to trust
18- fuel filter
19- rear gear gasket and fluid (document actual rear gear
20- couple cans undercoat to add above fuel tank
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 14, 2013, 01:00:21 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 14, 2013, 01:00:21 AM
Xxx
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 14, 2013, 01:05:33 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 14, 2013, 01:05:33 AM
foe!!!
you sure as hell have resources!
you sure as hell have resources!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 14, 2013, 01:09:09 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 14, 2013, 01:09:09 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;418591
4- gapless ring kit for the top compression ring
Personally for what it is worth i would NOT DO THAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
why? its important i hear your side.
machine shop guy saying its not a bad idea, the upper compression ring gapless kit is two rings,, one compression ever so slightly thinner then another somewhat of an oil ring is paired up with it. he said you just put the pair on 180 out and give .004'' per inch of cylinder bore, these end up closing up to a final gap of .003 or .004 after engine is hot,, basically it a very cheap and easy best bang for your buck to assure max compression with zero gap.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 14, 2013, 08:36:50 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 14, 2013, 08:36:50 AM
Quote from: jcassity;418592
foe!!!
you sure as hell have resources!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 14, 2013, 09:46:40 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 14, 2013, 09:46:40 AM
jcassity,
Sounds like you have a good plan!
I ran a set of Total Seal gapless rings when my dad and I rebuilt the original 302 in the Bird back in the late 80's. That motor was pulled from the car and sold to a buddy and by the time they finally retired his mom's 85 Cougar it had over 200K on the rebuild & never used oil. The thing you definitely do not want to do is run gapless rings with a power adder. You can do a Google search on that and it is well documented.
Darren
Sounds like you have a good plan!
I ran a set of Total Seal gapless rings when my dad and I rebuilt the original 302 in the Bird back in the late 80's. That motor was pulled from the car and sold to a buddy and by the time they finally retired his mom's 85 Cougar it had over 200K on the rebuild & never used oil. The thing you definitely do not want to do is run gapless rings with a power adder. You can do a Google search on that and it is well documented.
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 14, 2013, 10:21:27 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 14, 2013, 10:21:27 AM
Xx
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 14, 2013, 11:44:28 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 14, 2013, 11:44:28 AM
tom,,
thank you for the hugs. :)
now wheres my kisses~!!
thank you for the hugs. :)
now wheres my kisses~!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 14, 2013, 11:54:45 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 14, 2013, 11:54:45 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;418606
Nah, just the good fortune of working in a Ford dealer with a powertrain table. It's not a pull method for everybody, but it worked well for me. I've got a thread on it (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?35481-Unconventional-Engine-Trans-pull&highlight=unconventional") if you hadn't seen it. Initially I had some kickback from the board for thinking outside the box, but once I brought pics, people started to get it.
with your method, it offers an opportunity to address corresion in areas we shade tree guys tend not to be able to get to ever.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 14, 2013, 12:20:52 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 14, 2013, 12:20:52 PM
Tom,
Thanks for the catch! I should have been a bit more clear on what I was saying.
Tom made comment on questioning how the top ring on the piston controlled oil usage. I should have clarified that what I was saying about the design of the gapless ring not using any oil was just a thumbs up to the Total Seal ring package as far as longevity was concerned. We also had the heads serviced with new guides and a valve job so I am sure that contributed to the longevity as well.
jcassity,
I also forgot to mention that your concern with the aluminum roller rockers is something you need not have. I have the Crane Energizer roller rockers on my Coupe and they have had zero issues and I bought them used. I am pretty sure that Ford would not have used the Crane aluminum roller rockers in the 93-95 Cobras is there was going to be a longevity issue. Again, the biggest thing is to upgrade the valve springs like so many here have said.
Darren
Thanks for the catch! I should have been a bit more clear on what I was saying.
Tom made comment on questioning how the top ring on the piston controlled oil usage. I should have clarified that what I was saying about the design of the gapless ring not using any oil was just a thumbs up to the Total Seal ring package as far as longevity was concerned. We also had the heads serviced with new guides and a valve job so I am sure that contributed to the longevity as well.
jcassity,
I also forgot to mention that your concern with the aluminum roller rockers is something you need not have. I have the Crane Energizer roller rockers on my Coupe and they have had zero issues and I bought them used. I am pretty sure that Ford would not have used the Crane aluminum roller rockers in the 93-95 Cobras is there was going to be a longevity issue. Again, the biggest thing is to upgrade the valve springs like so many here have said.
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 14, 2013, 10:27:08 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 14, 2013, 10:27:08 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;418621
Tom,
I also forgot to mention that your concern with the aluminum roller rockers is something you need not have. I have the Crane Energizer roller rockers on my Coupe and they have had zero issues and I bought them used. I am pretty sure that Ford would not have used the Crane aluminum roller rockers in the 93-95 Cobras is there was going to be a longevity issue. Again, the biggest thing is to upgrade the valve springs like so many here have said.
Darren
I agree. The aluminum roller rockers are fine. I have FRPP 1.6 roller rockers on my Thunderbird (made by Crane, they are not the Cobra ones but the blue 1.6 ratio) and they are beefy pieces. If you are going to buy roller rockers stick with name brands (FRPP, Crane, Comp) as they make quality aluminum roller rockers. DO NOT use the cheap, less than $200, aluminum roller rockers from eBay/China. There is a reason they are half the price of the quality ones.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 14, 2013, 10:38:30 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 14, 2013, 10:38:30 PM
You need a slight amount of blow by in position ONE.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 07:58:48 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 07:58:48 AM
i was going to buy parts today but,, now springs came up.
i was under the impression that only the GT40P heads needed valve spring upgrade, the GT40 springs do not.
sprngs are not on my list.
tom
you against gapless all together? cyl1 takes a beating i know but is your reason because its the ref cylinder ?
i was under the impression that only the GT40P heads needed valve spring upgrade, the GT40 springs do not.
sprngs are not on my list.
tom
you against gapless all together? cyl1 takes a beating i know but is your reason because its the ref cylinder ?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 08:15:23 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 08:15:23 AM
i got an HO cam, measured all the journals and they look good.
main journals mic out at
1- 2.0815
2- 2.0659
3- 2.0511
4- 2.0363
5- 2.0210
50% of the lobes measure on average 1.7278
50% of the other lobes measure on average of 1.7178
i measure a lobe journal width and subtract that number from the above height and am coming up with about .2xxx remaing
I was expecting to have .444 on average remaining since someone earlier said this number.
also havng trouble verifying the cam lobs profile matches the ho firing order, im rotating it on the work bench CW
what marks do i look for to confirm it is an HO ?
main journals mic out at
1- 2.0815
2- 2.0659
3- 2.0511
4- 2.0363
5- 2.0210
50% of the lobes measure on average 1.7278
50% of the other lobes measure on average of 1.7178
i measure a lobe journal width and subtract that number from the above height and am coming up with about .2xxx remaing
I was expecting to have .444 on average remaining since someone earlier said this number.
also havng trouble verifying the cam lobs profile matches the ho firing order, im rotating it on the work bench CW
what marks do i look for to confirm it is an HO ?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Clayton on July 15, 2013, 08:36:19 AM
Post by: Clayton on July 15, 2013, 08:36:19 AM
Im pretty sure it is scott. If it turns out to be a so cam ill refund you no questions asked. But im sure the motor came out of a 91 mustang
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 09:45:51 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 09:45:51 AM
no issues, just verifying the one part you dont want to install without being sure,, it is a good looking cam.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 15, 2013, 10:15:37 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 15, 2013, 10:15:37 AM
that sounds about right. you have to remember that you have 1.6:1 rocker arms. The actual lobe lift will be less, .444 lift is at the valve. Measured lobe lift x 1.6 should be in the neighborhood of .444.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 12:43:14 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 12:43:14 PM
last night we mic'd out the cam,, today we took the delivery of the used 133,000 mile explorer motor.
its nice to see mason and chance working together.
verified heads have three hash marks,, they are GT40's.
its nice to see mason and chance working together.
verified heads have three hash marks,, they are GT40's.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 12:44:29 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 12:44:29 PM
another shot tearing off the stuff we dont need
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 15, 2013, 12:59:13 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 15, 2013, 12:59:13 PM
Sweet, that means you don't need special headers and you don't have to piss with the EGR. Just put it together like the old one came apart. Remember to make sure the the ACT is in no. 5 intake runner. I know you want to keep the intake that's on the car already, but if that one is a late 97+ with external EGR, you'll want to use the one you're pulling off the motor you just picked up.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 11:38:50 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 11:38:50 PM
this intake stuff wont go on,, the engine we are pulling has the explorer stuff alreay to go and mod'd.
engine apart, heads at machine shop, springs on order along with rockers
block torn apart, crank needs turned.
cylinder walls are perfect,, we wont bore out at all,, just clean up.
mason dropped a piston,, its cracked.,, oh well.
timing cover is a bitch... thats the only part still on trapping the crank from coming out.
tomorrow, block goes to machine shop.
engine apart, heads at machine shop, springs on order along with rockers
block torn apart, crank needs turned.
cylinder walls are perfect,, we wont bore out at all,, just clean up.
mason dropped a piston,, its cracked.,, oh well.
timing cover is a bitch... thats the only part still on trapping the crank from coming out.
tomorrow, block goes to machine shop.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 11:42:14 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 15, 2013, 11:42:14 PM
question,,
these heads dont have the egr tube across the back,,
does that require an intake gasket modification or will it all land perfectly since i am buying 97 explorer headgasket kit?
all the short block stuff will be 87 302 stuff.
on a side note,, the driver head rocker arms were so loose they jingled. not like the pass side
motor must have set so long the lifters blead down.
i rotated the crank to see if this loose issue transfered over to the pass side and it did not.
all the rods and mains have lots of wear,, i my opinion,, some of the aka "copper showing in spots.
these heads dont have the egr tube across the back,,
does that require an intake gasket modification or will it all land perfectly since i am buying 97 explorer headgasket kit?
all the short block stuff will be 87 302 stuff.
on a side note,, the driver head rocker arms were so loose they jingled. not like the pass side
motor must have set so long the lifters blead down.
i rotated the crank to see if this loose issue transfered over to the pass side and it did not.
all the rods and mains have lots of wear,, i my opinion,, some of the aka "copper showing in spots.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 15, 2013, 11:56:16 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 15, 2013, 11:56:16 PM
The lost of the crossover tube isn't a problem. I believe it was for either A.I.R. injection, or maybe EGR. Either way forget about it. It won't be a problem. What MIGHT be a problem is the intake. If you're going to keep it, you'll wan't to be sure it's the same as the Explorer engine you have, which is to say, Internal EGR. If it is (96, early 97) then there's not a problem. If it is later build, then I urge you to re-evaluate it's carry-over.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 16, 2013, 01:00:49 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 16, 2013, 01:00:49 AM
ill check out the casting on the intake(s) we want to keep.
i have no clue what year intake is currently running, came from thunderjet302, got the upper/lower for my oldest for christmas
i have no clue what year intake is currently running, came from thunderjet302, got the upper/lower for my oldest for christmas
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2013, 04:36:47 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2013, 04:36:47 PM
Quote from: jcassity;418721
ill check out the casting on the intake(s) we want to keep.
i have no clue what year intake is currently running, came from thunderjet302, got the upper/lower for my oldest for christmas
The intake you got from me came off of a '96 Explorer. You're good to go for internal EGR.
The crossover tube on the back of the heads is for the Thermactor system. Since you don't live in a place where they test for emissions just remove the Thermactor system. I did on my Thunderbird.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 18, 2013, 10:58:38 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 18, 2013, 10:58:38 PM
we are going to keep the smog parts installed on the car,, i told mason that one day he's going to be in a situation where he is going to have to throw the belt on just incase of an ispection.
he's in virginia now but still technially a WV resident.
he's in virginia now but still technially a WV resident.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 19, 2013, 01:50:44 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 19, 2013, 01:50:44 AM
You've got no place on GT40 heads to attach the crossover tube.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 19, 2013, 10:11:06 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 19, 2013, 10:11:06 AM
I do have a queston though,, rather technical,, not sure anyone can answer but here goes....
will the harmonic balancer off an 88bird directly swap onto the ford explorer crank?
anyway, great news!! we broke the timing cover on the explorer trying to get it off and being very careful.
so,,, either we "risk" not having a spare or we "hope" the timing cover that is on my sons bird now comes off easy.
will the harmonic balancer off an 88bird directly swap onto the ford explorer crank?
anyway, great news!! we broke the timing cover on the explorer trying to get it off and being very careful.
so,,, either we "risk" not having a spare or we "hope" the timing cover that is on my sons bird now comes off easy.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 19, 2013, 10:36:17 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 19, 2013, 10:36:17 AM
You want the one from the TBird anyway, the one from the Explorer wont line up with the other accessories from the car. Also, the balancer, yes, you can swap them and you should, or else the pulley won't line up.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 19, 2013, 10:46:01 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 19, 2013, 10:46:01 AM
yeah cause i was thinking/remembering stuff i forgot,, i believe the small block fords went from a two piece rear main seal to a single in like 83 or mid 82, just had to confirm.
Im still deciding if my crank needs polished or turned,, thats holding me up, taking to the machine shop now along with rods.
cant wait to see this roller/needle bearing mod setup for the cam.
Im still deciding if my crank needs polished or turned,, thats holding me up, taking to the machine shop now along with rods.
cant wait to see this roller/needle bearing mod setup for the cam.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 19, 2013, 11:48:49 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 19, 2013, 11:48:49 AM
If you need a timing chain cover you can get one from Autozone. They are made by Pioneer who made them for Ford anyhow. The one I got for my car still has the Ford part number stamped on it.
Darren
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 19, 2013, 03:59:13 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 19, 2013, 03:59:13 PM
wow, didnt know that
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 19, 2013, 08:09:42 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 19, 2013, 08:09:42 PM
Jay when checking cams you do it either in the ENGINE or on V BLOCKS on the bench with a dial indicator. I guess you could get some kind of an idea with a VERINA CALIPER but i never seen anyone do it that way. Being though you have the engine apart why not get a better cam. Best bang for the buck for some HP GAINS. Just me. By the way Jay when you are talking about RINGS and pistons as i posted above. POSITION ONE is the first ring land!!!!! Not cylinder ONE!!!
As far as the crank goes do you have the old bearings you can tell from them how the crank is by them. Then mike the journals and see where they are at. Normally if the crank mikes out OK you can lightly polish them and have the rod big ends dun after replacing the rod bolts. The machinest can set the bearing clearance when he does the big ends of the rods. GOOD LUCK~~
As far as the crank goes do you have the old bearings you can tell from them how the crank is by them. Then mike the journals and see where they are at. Normally if the crank mikes out OK you can lightly polish them and have the rod big ends dun after replacing the rod bolts. The machinest can set the bearing clearance when he does the big ends of the rods. GOOD LUCK~~
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 19, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 19, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
yeah, i should've used my dial indicator,
i need you to explain that piston/ring land thing earlier and why total seal rings are no go..pls call.
i am changing to HO cam,, thats about all i think is going to be needed to add a little bit to the gt heads. cant seem to find the additional time to factor in all the possibilities of issues with a larger cam and fuel and eec all working together well. We only have a certain amount of time and the work im doing now is getting ahead of the game so that when my son pulls up, we are just swapping motors.
Do you want pics of the crank bearings? i can post them up.
As far as i can tell after today mic'ing out the crank and getting the machine shope to look at it, they kinda thought i was being too hard on the crank.
They are going to polish it because its in really great shape. that helps alot.
so,,,,,,,,
check out this cam beearing
thinking of having them do it to this block.. purdy easy mod to.
i need you to explain that piston/ring land thing earlier and why total seal rings are no go..pls call.
i am changing to HO cam,, thats about all i think is going to be needed to add a little bit to the gt heads. cant seem to find the additional time to factor in all the possibilities of issues with a larger cam and fuel and eec all working together well. We only have a certain amount of time and the work im doing now is getting ahead of the game so that when my son pulls up, we are just swapping motors.
Do you want pics of the crank bearings? i can post them up.
As far as i can tell after today mic'ing out the crank and getting the machine shope to look at it, they kinda thought i was being too hard on the crank.
They are going to polish it because its in really great shape. that helps alot.
so,,,,,,,,
check out this cam beearing
thinking of having them do it to this block.. purdy easy mod to.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 20, 2013, 06:21:38 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 20, 2013, 06:21:38 AM
Jay why in the world would you install those bearings waste all that money and have a setup that is totally not needed with the cam you are running. These bearings came about from guys running HIGH SPRING PRESSURES and HIGH RPM ENGINES. Basically they are for extremely high RPM engines. Pro stock guys found out that they transmitted abnormal transit vibrations through the block and engines failed. They solved some of the cam bearing spinning issues but that is about it. I highly doubt you will spin a cam bearing in your life They also have to be installed properly and the block has to be machined. Research has proven that these bearings bleed to much oil off the oil system and need restrictor's in some cases. In my view they have less load capacity then a BABIT BEARING but are sometimes needed for crazy cams in the high lift areas. Do the math on the contact area they have less contact area but naturally roll easier to some extent just my logic on them. Not many guys run them and for what it costs and with a cam at 444 LIFT at the valve those bearings are NOT NEEDED. So unless you are building a race engine with extremely high lift and heavy valve train springs FORGET THOSE BEARINGS. They suck big time for a street engine. Just me!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 20, 2013, 08:04:57 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 20, 2013, 08:04:57 AM
some of the con's are off the list because i the engine wont make those rpm's.
the oil flow con your talking about would be offset with a high volume pump in this small motor but i was not planning one.
this would reduce additional friction but again, i was considering this but you might be surprised the price i was getting didnt hurt the budget.
the oil flow con your talking about would be offset with a high volume pump in this small motor but i was not planning one.
this would reduce additional friction but again, i was considering this but you might be surprised the price i was getting didnt hurt the budget.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 20, 2013, 10:17:12 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 20, 2013, 10:17:12 AM
I'm with Tom on needle bearings for the cam. It's not necessary. On the other hand, If I were putting a motor together in an expensive aftermarket block, I might use them, just because with a block like that there are higher limits, and what I might start as a mild build could become much less so at a later time. In your case, your block will split in half long before you're making enough power to justify something like that.
And I HAVE had a cam bearing spin. It was in the 87 HO I was running before I got this Explorer engine. That's why I had to get my HO2 cam from a coworker; the one I had was wiped. (HO vs HO2 = HO2 has an additional 10 degrees exhaust duration at the same lift, used in HO engine after 90)
And I HAVE had a cam bearing spin. It was in the 87 HO I was running before I got this Explorer engine. That's why I had to get my HO2 cam from a coworker; the one I had was wiped. (HO vs HO2 = HO2 has an additional 10 degrees exhaust duration at the same lift, used in HO engine after 90)
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 20, 2013, 10:42:17 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 20, 2013, 10:42:17 AM
First off JAY you NEED LEARNIN!!! NEVER USE A HIGH VOLUME OR PRESSURE PUMP ON ANYTHING. Foe i am an old DUDE dun many engines and have never seen a spun cam bearing. Not to say it cant happen just i have never see one. In the light of things how many cam bearings have you actuallyu seen that were even BAD!!! Naturally you change them that is a no brainer but they in all regards do not have much of a load on them and the cam spins Half the RPM of the engine. Very little load at best.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 20, 2013, 11:05:25 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 20, 2013, 11:05:25 AM
With the needle bearings I believe you have to get a cam that has the correct OD journals for the bearings. This would mean the HO cam would have to be ground or a different cam chosen. I am running spring pressures of 135 psig closed and 395 psig open and use standard bearings. The frictional loss that the needle bearings provide is something that all motor heads jump on as we see it as GOOD stuff. In our cases it is pretty much just shiney stuff that really won't make the motor perform any better. Spend your hard earned $$$ on a different cam (custom ground by Ed Curtis is about $300) or contact Comp Cams hotline and they can pick a really good off the shelf cam for you.
Your combo is really similiar to what I ran in my Coupe with the first 306 which had some mildly ported 1969 351W DOZZ heads. I ran a Comp Cam that had a 0.512 lift with 1.6 rockers and the duration was split to favor the shiznitty exhaust ports even though we opened them up. The car made 251 rwhp / 289 ft-lbs of torque on a Mustang Dyno so it was not too shabby with the T-5 in it. Anyhow, enough of my reminiscing about the past and on with your build man!
Darren
Your combo is really similiar to what I ran in my Coupe with the first 306 which had some mildly ported 1969 351W DOZZ heads. I ran a Comp Cam that had a 0.512 lift with 1.6 rockers and the duration was split to favor the shiznitty exhaust ports even though we opened them up. The car made 251 rwhp / 289 ft-lbs of torque on a Mustang Dyno so it was not too shabby with the T-5 in it. Anyhow, enough of my reminiscing about the past and on with your build man!
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 20, 2013, 12:04:51 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 20, 2013, 12:04:51 PM
tom, i dont do this everyday, this is only my 9th motor ive ever done, and some small equipment,
I did back off the high volume oil pump as i stated earlier in my parts list i posted,,
the needle cam bearing i say again i was thinking about doing.,, thats all.
2.5L GM 1983,, pretty good motor if you ask me other than the plastic timing gear to gear
3.8L v6 ford
I-6 plym duster
351M Ford 1977 cougar
302 1988 ford bronco
350 chevy x 2 in camaro mid 80s
460 in a log truck
I did back off the high volume oil pump as i stated earlier in my parts list i posted,,
the needle cam bearing i say again i was thinking about doing.,, thats all.
2.5L GM 1983,, pretty good motor if you ask me other than the plastic timing gear to gear
3.8L v6 ford
I-6 plym duster
351M Ford 1977 cougar
302 1988 ford bronco
350 chevy x 2 in camaro mid 80s
460 in a log truck
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 23, 2013, 09:21:07 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 23, 2013, 09:21:07 AM
Question again,,
the 1997 ford explorer timing cover is autozone pn 500302T by Pioneer
the 1988 ford tunderbird timing cover is autozone pn 500302L by Pioneer
to keep the 1988 water pump on this car while using the 1997 ford explorer block, will the 88 timing cover fit and work correctly?
anyone know?
the explorer timing cover did not have the "allen head" bolts on the timing cover along the lower
the 1997 ford explorer timing cover is autozone pn 500302T by Pioneer
the 1988 ford tunderbird timing cover is autozone pn 500302L by Pioneer
to keep the 1988 water pump on this car while using the 1997 ford explorer block, will the 88 timing cover fit and work correctly?
anyone know?
the explorer timing cover did not have the "allen head" bolts on the timing cover along the lower
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 23, 2013, 09:30:23 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 23, 2013, 09:30:23 AM
Yes, the tbird timing cover will work, and that's the one you'll want to use if you want to run the accessories that are in the bird already.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 23, 2013, 09:33:24 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 23, 2013, 09:33:24 AM
thanks, glad you had a first go at the explorer swap,, it helps greatly,, just trying to be prepared.
we busted the explorer cover, will order bird cover and have it on standby incase we break the bird one also.
we busted the explorer cover, will order bird cover and have it on standby incase we break the bird one also.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 24, 2013, 03:42:35 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 24, 2013, 03:42:35 PM
so i am shaving my GT40 heads approx .020 off, given you reduce the chamber CC by about 4cc per .005'' (just a guesstimate) and i am wondering if i am on the "cuff" of needing to consider push rod length and 1.7roller rockers.
im thinking no but any thoughts?
cutting heads to get them closer to the cobra specs since the valves are the same on either head
im thinking no but any thoughts?
cutting heads to get them closer to the cobra specs since the valves are the same on either head
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 24, 2013, 08:17:26 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 24, 2013, 08:17:26 PM
They make a shim kit for pedestal roller rockers so they can be adjusted to obtain proper valve train geometry with the stock pushrods. Pick a kit up and if you need to use a shim to adjust the valve train you'll be happy you have it. You may or may not need it but because you're having the heads milled I would advise picking up the kit. The kit is cheap and can be found at most major parts houses: http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=786
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 24, 2013, 09:19:47 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 24, 2013, 09:19:47 PM
With pedestal rockers the geometry does not change when milling. Only the lifter PRE LOAD. And with a .020 cut he is still in FORD SPECKS. If he shims the pedestals he changes everything. Getting a valve job changes the geometry very slightly. But having a Predetermined distance of the pedestal that does nothing for geometry of the valves. He will not need to change the push-rods but if he wants to adjust the lifter PRE-LOAD he needs to choose a different push rod. SHORTER. Depending on the amount of PRE-LOAD he wants.
:hick::mullet::burnout:
:hick::mullet::burnout:
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 25, 2013, 11:45:20 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 25, 2013, 11:45:20 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;419127
With pedestal rockers the geometry does not change when milling. Only the lifter PRE LOAD. And with a .020 cut he is still in FORD SPECKS. If he shims the pedestals he changes everything. Getting a valve job changes the geometry very slightly. But having a Predetermined distance of the pedestal that does nothing for geometry of the valves. He will not need to change the push-rods but if he wants to adjust the lifter PRE-LOAD he needs to choose a different push rod. SHORTER. Depending on the amount of PRE-LOAD he wants.
:hick::mullet::burnout:
Yep I meant lifter pre-load not geometry. Thanks for the correction. But the shim kit can be used to change the lifter preload. If an engine has the stock length pushrods and too much preload with roller rockers the shims will allow the user to essentially have a shorter pushrod. This video gives and explanation of how to adjust the pedestal style rockers and how the shims come into play:
[video=youtube;z8NW0R0kDiY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8NW0R0kDiY[/video]
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 25, 2013, 12:38:46 PM
Post by: jcassity on July 25, 2013, 12:38:46 PM
ive seen this done a few ways,, and following firing order "if" your pushrod spins "after" you have torqued the rockers but there is not up and down play then things should be just fine.
his method really buttons up any possible loose ends however i am thinking that no two motors will ever yeild the same preload results with using your degrees of rotation of your torque wrench as the reference.,, couple that with his perception of "feel" on the push rod binding as well.
if my push rod "spin" "feels" the same across the whole motor as i dial the crank, but has no up and down play, all things lubrication wise and valves fully seating should be good to go.
thoughts?
his method really buttons up any possible loose ends however i am thinking that no two motors will ever yeild the same preload results with using your degrees of rotation of your torque wrench as the reference.,, couple that with his perception of "feel" on the push rod binding as well.
if my push rod "spin" "feels" the same across the whole motor as i dial the crank, but has no up and down play, all things lubrication wise and valves fully seating should be good to go.
thoughts?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 25, 2013, 09:40:36 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 25, 2013, 09:40:36 PM
OK lets clear this UP!!!
Push rod length is push rod length. Best dun with an adjustable push rod. Use a push rod checker and log in its overall length on every valve then add the amount of PRE-LOAD you want. Then make sure you use a push rod of the correct Size if available. So for arguments sake when i build an LS Motor i measure the checker at lets say 7.360 Inches. I would then want lets say .040 Pre-load. So i would use a push rod length of 7.400. No two positions will be the same and they do not need to be the same. Reason being pre-load is anywhere from ..030-.080. So basically it does not matter. But having over .080 and you will have issues. So when checking length use a checker and this way you can determine the pre-load. Remember any time you shim the pedestal you change the Geometry. But this may be the only way you can get the proper PRE-LOAD if variousle length push rods are not available
http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp%20Cams/249/7702-1/10002/-1?CT=999
You can also have custom length rods made!!
http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/file/304-310.pdf
But your setup will take a stock Push rod even with a .020 MILL. BUT CHECK IT AND CHECK IT CORRECTLY with a modified lifter and an adjustable push rod for accuracy. You can also use a stock un modified lifter as well but this takes a certin feel when rotation the push rod with your fingers.
Simply put install a stock push rod and spin it while tightening the rocker bolt. Once the push rod shows the slightest resistance with ZERO lash you can check the PRE LOAD by turning down the rest of the way. If it turns down 1/4 - 3/4 TURN then stops you are golden.
Push rod length is push rod length. Best dun with an adjustable push rod. Use a push rod checker and log in its overall length on every valve then add the amount of PRE-LOAD you want. Then make sure you use a push rod of the correct Size if available. So for arguments sake when i build an LS Motor i measure the checker at lets say 7.360 Inches. I would then want lets say .040 Pre-load. So i would use a push rod length of 7.400. No two positions will be the same and they do not need to be the same. Reason being pre-load is anywhere from ..030-.080. So basically it does not matter. But having over .080 and you will have issues. So when checking length use a checker and this way you can determine the pre-load. Remember any time you shim the pedestal you change the Geometry. But this may be the only way you can get the proper PRE-LOAD if variousle length push rods are not available
http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp%20Cams/249/7702-1/10002/-1?CT=999
You can also have custom length rods made!!
http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/file/304-310.pdf
But your setup will take a stock Push rod even with a .020 MILL. BUT CHECK IT AND CHECK IT CORRECTLY with a modified lifter and an adjustable push rod for accuracy. You can also use a stock un modified lifter as well but this takes a certin feel when rotation the push rod with your fingers.
Simply put install a stock push rod and spin it while tightening the rocker bolt. Once the push rod shows the slightest resistance with ZERO lash you can check the PRE LOAD by turning down the rest of the way. If it turns down 1/4 - 3/4 TURN then stops you are golden.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 27, 2013, 10:02:57 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 27, 2013, 10:02:57 AM
so yesterday i discuss where my dmark is compare to the machine shops responsibility for providing parts.
He told me what he would order by way of parts which would be the long block rebuild kit.
it helped me understand now what i need to start buying.
during our conversation, he mentioned he's going to get .020 over pistons in the kit.
He reasoned with me that even though the block looks fine, he explained that the cylnider holes in a "production" enviroment especially during these years, are not as good as they could be. He said that when he gets done, it will be better than oem and equally cylindrical top/middle/bottom.
I was kinda lost because he was the one who said the block is fine, later he looked closer and mis-spoke i guess because he said that there is a very minor ridge but the block is fine, however, to get that ridge gone,, .020 willl do it.
so i just thought i would babble a little with that update.
i keep telling him im concerned with crashing pistons to valves and he's looking at me like im from mars,,, i worry too much i guess,, clay will tell me if i need to fly cut the pistons or not,,, i just saw the tool that rides in the head and i can do that myself., its pretty much a no brainer slow going low speed process that seems measureable and easy enough.
he said "now just so you know this kit comes with hyper-eutectic pistons.. i about shiznit!
I did tell him to get me what he felt would be the best bang for my buck and use his best judgment on what he would do if it were his low horse engine....
im a little concerned. without crank, the kit (his cost for short block) comes to about 370$, that will be my cost as well. the gapless top ring kit is an adder.
we are purchasing our parts based on the 1997 ford explorer as the reference vehicle so that for upper engine parts the gaskets all match up.
most all of these engine parts are fairly equal across the years but there are gasket differences, to which i will have to manage item by item for any 88 parts that we needs.
He told me what he would order by way of parts which would be the long block rebuild kit.
it helped me understand now what i need to start buying.
during our conversation, he mentioned he's going to get .020 over pistons in the kit.
He reasoned with me that even though the block looks fine, he explained that the cylnider holes in a "production" enviroment especially during these years, are not as good as they could be. He said that when he gets done, it will be better than oem and equally cylindrical top/middle/bottom.
I was kinda lost because he was the one who said the block is fine, later he looked closer and mis-spoke i guess because he said that there is a very minor ridge but the block is fine, however, to get that ridge gone,, .020 willl do it.
so i just thought i would babble a little with that update.
i keep telling him im concerned with crashing pistons to valves and he's looking at me like im from mars,,, i worry too much i guess,, clay will tell me if i need to fly cut the pistons or not,,, i just saw the tool that rides in the head and i can do that myself., its pretty much a no brainer slow going low speed process that seems measureable and easy enough.
he said "now just so you know this kit comes with hyper-eutectic pistons.. i about shiznit!
I did tell him to get me what he felt would be the best bang for my buck and use his best judgment on what he would do if it were his low horse engine....
im a little concerned. without crank, the kit (his cost for short block) comes to about 370$, that will be my cost as well. the gapless top ring kit is an adder.
we are purchasing our parts based on the 1997 ford explorer as the reference vehicle so that for upper engine parts the gaskets all match up.
most all of these engine parts are fairly equal across the years but there are gasket differences, to which i will have to manage item by item for any 88 parts that we needs.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: turbotrav on July 28, 2013, 10:46:21 AM
Post by: turbotrav on July 28, 2013, 10:46:21 AM
FYI...hyper pistons will outlast the stock block...so no worries...heck for that matter cast pistons would probably last...but hypers are usually only a little bit more $$ than cast, so people go with hypers... I always found that is was interesting that father Ford installed forged pistons in the 87-92 Mustang 5.0 engine...but changed to hypers in 1993...just not necessary, considering the limitations of the stock block...
Forged are nice but not necessary at that power level in a 302 sized engine...
Travis
Forged are nice but not necessary at that power level in a 302 sized engine...
Travis
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: canadiancarguy on July 28, 2013, 12:47:16 PM
Post by: canadiancarguy on July 28, 2013, 12:47:16 PM
I am gonna jump in here from personal experience. Hyper pistons are cheap alternative for a street engine that doesn't see too much boost or nitrous. Now another good thing is no piston slap at startup due to very little thermal expansion. One MAJOR drawback is if you drop a valve your whole motor gets DESTROYED!! These pistons disintegrate if they make contact with a valve. I have had a couple modified sbc forged race engines destroy the valve train on one whole side of the motor in a qualifying run. Took the head off ground the tops of a couple pistons smooth put another head on and won the main. Done it twice now (not winning them main just similar engine failure). So what I am saying is choose your application wisely if this is going to just a daily driver under 400hp to wheels hyper is fine, but boost and nitrous are generally a no no. Go into an engine shop and ask for hyper pistons and tell em you wanna run a 200 shot of nitrous, see what they say... hopefully that wasn't too much of a hijack
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on July 29, 2013, 10:31:59 AM
Post by: jcassity on July 29, 2013, 10:31:59 AM
my mistake, i thought he was talking about domed on top pistons, which is not what came in the motor.
i suppose its my mistake, i thought all hypers were domed, these are flat with 4 reliefs.
i suppose its my mistake, i thought all hypers were domed, these are flat with 4 reliefs.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 07, 2013, 03:37:26 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 07, 2013, 03:37:26 PM
Been awhile on this, any updates?
Darren
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 07, 2013, 08:36:22 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 07, 2013, 08:36:22 PM
Hyper pistons have more SILICONE CONTENT App 10%. The term hyper means ABOVE OR OVER. The pistons have a good thermal expansion rate and can be run TIGHTER IN THE BORE. This makes for better ring sealing and wear. It also is stronger than a stock cast piston. That is an aftermarket 390 Alloy Hyper not a stock Hyper piston. Forged is the best but has draw backs as well. piston rock and start up slap. For a low performance engine up to 350Hp Hyper pistons are fine.(dont let them PING) Once again do not use gap less rings. Use a good set of Chrome molly file fit to the cylinders with the second ring looser than the top. 16-18 TOP 20-22 second. Good luck
Also i dont think you will have Piston to valve clearance issues with 444L at the duration of the cam you are using. If the Piston to valve clearance is not sufficient. >.080 Intake and .100 exhaust have them notched by a machinist. Doing it at home is risky and not consistent by any means. Good luck
Also i dont think you will have Piston to valve clearance issues with 444L at the duration of the cam you are using. If the Piston to valve clearance is not sufficient. >.080 Intake and .100 exhaust have them notched by a machinist. Doing it at home is risky and not consistent by any means. Good luck
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Chrome on August 09, 2013, 03:12:53 PM
Post by: Chrome on August 09, 2013, 03:12:53 PM
Lots of good info on this thread. What's the problem with gap less rings? I have never wanted to try them, but curious as to what problem they cause.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 10, 2013, 12:35:33 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 10, 2013, 12:35:33 AM
You need a certain amount of BLOW by in the first position. Without this the second ring wont have back pressure behind the land to force the ring against the walls. This is a discussion that no one can win on. Some love gapless and some hate them. I hate them as they sre a gimmic and do not have any advantages only disadvantages as explained above Thanks
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:27:08 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:27:08 PM
engine build complete,,, a little update
son came home as planned and arrived on 10aug
machine shop had not yet started my engine work
15aug we finally get a block shop
16aug we finally get heads back from machine shop
Mason has to be at work on 17aug
wtf?
parts we installed=
bbk headers
CW mounts
scorpion roller rockers SCP3021BL 1.6ratio full roller
Comp springs 961-16 which gave us about 110lbs seat presure
seal power bearings pn 8-2600A
seal power pistons 20 over pn H816CP
melling stock oil pump pn M-68
Hastings 20over rings pn 2M 4346 020,,, measured about .016 end gap so when the motor gets hot, im assuming that gap will close prudy close to .002
86MK7 ho SD eec
HO cam
86MK7 19lb injectors
88MK7 fuel pump
lots of gaskets from felpro and other stuff
96 explorer block/crank/upper/lower
BBK TB and spacer
**************I did not use the Explorer oil cooler*** i installed the bung for an FL1A filter instead.
so nuff crying about how well i planned this out and plans fell through the pits...... here is an engine update.
installed roller rockers and dialed each one in, each set of valves stayed slightly open when torqued to 20ft lbs.
I began to use the engine to bleed down the explorer lifters i used by rotating the engine a little at a time and the valves began to set.
Before i was able to blow air with a hose and out the intake/exh ports when each valve was on the base circle of the cam
now all is well and valves are seating... lifters must've been really locked up and full of oil.
motor went in fine and together but with a drill i could not get any oil to the top and was reluctant to drop it in but i did.
started up motor but top end sounded noisey
I shut down inside of 15 seconds, there is still no oil to the top.
Today i took a break, got my 20th coug ready to hand over to my son so he can go back to work,, he got an extra day off plus im not off my vacation week.
last night I took the oil filter off and turned the dizzy shaft with a drill,,, oil shot across the engine bay,, pump works.
Last night i pulled the motor off the transmission and disconnected the very least to raise the motor up and get the oil pan off.
swapped out oil pump for the hell of it, removed the exlorer lifters, removed the scorpion rockers, replaced these two items with the ones in my son's running tbird original engine... still no oil to the top of the motor by using a drill.
Today went to the machine shop, thier thoughts are exacly mine, there must be a blockage down near the downstream side of the oil filter galley.
I will be poking at those ports as soon as i get this thing back on a stand, from what i can tell, i will be better off taking all the things off the front of the motor to see this anyway since this galley leads out to the front edge of the crank ,, which means the timing cover needs to come of.
if there was an oil galley plug missing, oil would be pumping onto the floor and that is not happening.
I will also spin the dizzy shaft up top with help from my youngest son and see if i can see oil falling out from around the crank.
if i see none, its certainly a clog as the oil travels from the filter journal out to the engine oil galleys.\
at this point, i need to find the problem but if it is a clog, i need to figure out a way to present my findings to the machine shop without making an enemy... we are human after all but to tell you the truth, this shop really ruined my time i wanted to spend with my son doing this all week long, instead he / I had to rush this. we met our goal of putting it together in time for him to make it to work but the motor failed.
overall im disappointed but im sure ill figure it out with some help here and brainstroming from all of you as well,,, thanks for the calls and thoughts... this is a tough one to muddle through.
the following is several in process pics
ill keep you all posted.
son came home as planned and arrived on 10aug
machine shop had not yet started my engine work
15aug we finally get a block shop
16aug we finally get heads back from machine shop
Mason has to be at work on 17aug
wtf?
parts we installed=
bbk headers
CW mounts
scorpion roller rockers SCP3021BL 1.6ratio full roller
Comp springs 961-16 which gave us about 110lbs seat presure
seal power bearings pn 8-2600A
seal power pistons 20 over pn H816CP
melling stock oil pump pn M-68
Hastings 20over rings pn 2M 4346 020,,, measured about .016 end gap so when the motor gets hot, im assuming that gap will close prudy close to .002
86MK7 ho SD eec
HO cam
86MK7 19lb injectors
88MK7 fuel pump
lots of gaskets from felpro and other stuff
96 explorer block/crank/upper/lower
BBK TB and spacer
**************I did not use the Explorer oil cooler*** i installed the bung for an FL1A filter instead.
so nuff crying about how well i planned this out and plans fell through the pits...... here is an engine update.
installed roller rockers and dialed each one in, each set of valves stayed slightly open when torqued to 20ft lbs.
I began to use the engine to bleed down the explorer lifters i used by rotating the engine a little at a time and the valves began to set.
Before i was able to blow air with a hose and out the intake/exh ports when each valve was on the base circle of the cam
now all is well and valves are seating... lifters must've been really locked up and full of oil.
motor went in fine and together but with a drill i could not get any oil to the top and was reluctant to drop it in but i did.
started up motor but top end sounded noisey
I shut down inside of 15 seconds, there is still no oil to the top.
Today i took a break, got my 20th coug ready to hand over to my son so he can go back to work,, he got an extra day off plus im not off my vacation week.
last night I took the oil filter off and turned the dizzy shaft with a drill,,, oil shot across the engine bay,, pump works.
Last night i pulled the motor off the transmission and disconnected the very least to raise the motor up and get the oil pan off.
swapped out oil pump for the hell of it, removed the exlorer lifters, removed the scorpion rockers, replaced these two items with the ones in my son's running tbird original engine... still no oil to the top of the motor by using a drill.
Today went to the machine shop, thier thoughts are exacly mine, there must be a blockage down near the downstream side of the oil filter galley.
I will be poking at those ports as soon as i get this thing back on a stand, from what i can tell, i will be better off taking all the things off the front of the motor to see this anyway since this galley leads out to the front edge of the crank ,, which means the timing cover needs to come of.
if there was an oil galley plug missing, oil would be pumping onto the floor and that is not happening.
I will also spin the dizzy shaft up top with help from my youngest son and see if i can see oil falling out from around the crank.
if i see none, its certainly a clog as the oil travels from the filter journal out to the engine oil galleys.\
at this point, i need to find the problem but if it is a clog, i need to figure out a way to present my findings to the machine shop without making an enemy... we are human after all but to tell you the truth, this shop really ruined my time i wanted to spend with my son doing this all week long, instead he / I had to rush this. we met our goal of putting it together in time for him to make it to work but the motor failed.
overall im disappointed but im sure ill figure it out with some help here and brainstroming from all of you as well,,, thanks for the calls and thoughts... this is a tough one to muddle through.
the following is several in process pics
ill keep you all posted.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:30:19 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:30:19 PM
pics set 1
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:32:03 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:32:03 PM
pics set 2
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:33:15 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:33:15 PM
pics set 3
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:34:22 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:34:22 PM
pics set 4
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:35:16 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:35:16 PM
pics set 5
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 19, 2013, 10:40:10 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 19, 2013, 10:40:10 PM
Oil flows from the main feed holes to the saddles and into the cam bearings via a slotted main bearing. At the back of the block, you will find a core plug (freeze plug) under the intake. One hole goes nearly straight down. The other is drilled at an angle. The one that goes straight down intersects all the way down to the main galley. Both of these holes intersect the lifter galleys. Lifters are oiled through these galleys and of course the springs and rockers are oiled through the push rods.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:45:16 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 19, 2013, 10:45:16 PM
thanks buddy, i will be getting dirty again,,
what once a few hours ago was a laboratory clean room situation has suddenly become a filthy floor and nightmare again.
what once a few hours ago was a laboratory clean room situation has suddenly become a filthy floor and nightmare again.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 19, 2013, 10:55:08 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 19, 2013, 10:55:08 PM
Quote from: tom renzo;420321
oil flows from the main feed holes to the saddles and into the cam bearings via a slotted main bearing. At the back of the block, you will find a core plug (freeze plug) under the intake. One hole goes nearly straight down. The other is drilled at an angle. The one that goes straight down intersects all the way down to the main galley. Both of these holes intersect the lifter galleys. Lifters are oiled through these galleys and of course the springs and rockers are oiled through the push rods.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 19, 2013, 11:00:33 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 19, 2013, 11:00:33 PM
Foe for some reason i remember a tech bullitin on this from AERA. I am frantically looking for it and i cant find it. I think if the plug is the wrong one or driven in to far it blocks the gallies from getting oil. This is sticking in my head like a bad dream. I just cant find it and i know that is the INTERSECTION for the gallies!! Unfortunately i do not have a bare block laying around. Can you understand where i am coming from FOE. That plug is bugging me and i would pull it out and spin the pump and see if oil is there. I think that is the issue or the main bearing slot that feeds it. I wish i was there to pull this apart. It has me going and i wont be able to sleep until i find this TSB!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 19, 2013, 11:09:32 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 19, 2013, 11:09:32 PM
Like I said THIS MORNING, I've seen that plug blow out and wreak havoc before, you just have to pull the intake to know for sure. If you find it blown out, go to bed and get some rest. Tomorrow, replace the plug and seal it with green loctite (wicking formula). If it's not blown out, seal it with green loctite anyway, then put a big gob of RTV on top of it such as would contact the bottom of the intake and create a rubber reinforcement once cured. This is what we did for Max's 333 that he put in his RX-7. He was beside himself when we finally found this core plug blown out.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 19, 2013, 11:16:22 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 19, 2013, 11:16:22 PM
This is that son of a bitch right here. Known problem in many build forums. Tell your machine shop to not ever screw with this plug.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 19, 2013, 11:18:54 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 19, 2013, 11:18:54 PM
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/843239-302-block-oil-gallery-plug-questions.html
and THIS
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_green/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Green-290.htm
and THIS
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_green/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Green-290.htm
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 12:23:21 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 12:23:21 AM
that freeze plug is present, its new, now if it is in too deep i dont know, need another explorer motor to compare to.
will check those links tomorrow foe
thanks guys,,
will check those links tomorrow foe
thanks guys,,
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2013, 06:34:11 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2013, 06:34:11 AM
That is the one FOE he has to remove it and spin the pump. I am leaning twords the main bearing slot that feeds it. If there is no oil there there is no other reason i can think of> When cleaning a block after machining i always shoot water through all the oil passages to make sure they are clear. Having a blocked oil passage is not something i would think is the issue. Basically the short block has to be torn down and started from FRESH. Good Luck Jay.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 12:08:24 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 12:08:24 PM
here is an oil flow layout 5.0L
if the top side freeze plug you point out is a probable fault being installed too deep, then i would still have oil flow to the passanger lifter galley anyway.
I measured the installed depth of my son's old 5.0L and the new explorer 5.0L
old motor installed depth of this freeze plug is .310''
new motor installed depth of this freeze plug is .290''
if the top side freeze plug you point out is a probable fault being installed too deep, then i would still have oil flow to the passanger lifter galley anyway.
I measured the installed depth of my son's old 5.0L and the new explorer 5.0L
old motor installed depth of this freeze plug is .310''
new motor installed depth of this freeze plug is .290''
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 12:14:41 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 12:14:41 PM
here is where i need to start i believe,,
and you all know what that means by way of tear down
and you all know what that means by way of tear down
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Clayton on August 20, 2013, 03:06:04 PM
Post by: Clayton on August 20, 2013, 03:06:04 PM
I know you have a great attention to detail Scott, but would it be possible to have installed the main bearings upside down?'
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 20, 2013, 03:38:56 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 20, 2013, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: 87thunderbirdBlackJack;420348
I know you have a great attention to detail Scott, but would it be possible to have installed the main bearings upside down?'
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 04:11:08 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 04:11:08 PM
Quote from: 87thunderbirdBlackJack;420348
I know you have a great attention to detail Scott, but would it be possible to have installed the main bearings upside down?'
i was just thinking that then corrected myself because of the design of the oil galley above number1 main.
should have oil flow restriction issue solved later on today.
Your cam buffed out really nice by the way.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Clayton on August 20, 2013, 04:37:36 PM
Post by: Clayton on August 20, 2013, 04:37:36 PM
Sweet glad to hear.
Hope you get this issue figured out so you both can enjoy it
Hope you get this issue figured out so you both can enjoy it
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2013, 06:35:10 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2013, 06:35:10 PM
I am betting on the upper main bearings, If memory serves me they are slotted and the slotted one goes in the block. Normally the bearing TANGS are OFFSET on the uppers and centered in the lowers so reversal is not something easily dun. But i do not remember if the 302 is like that. I know chevies are. One thing to remember when ever doing an engine!!!! Or for that matter anything always take lots of photos and keep the old parts to compare to the new ones. This can save a lot of grief when monday morning QUARTERBACKING. Good luck Jay
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2013, 06:37:20 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2013, 06:37:20 PM
Quote from: 87thunderbirdBlackJack;420348
I know you have a great attention to detail Scott, but would it be possible to have installed the main bearings upside down?'
This is what i am thinking and or the wrong SET. Jay did you build the motor???? Or did the machinist build it???
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 06:51:01 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 06:51:01 PM
look at the oil gally pic i posted,,, the main bearing has nothing to do with blocking flow upstream.
Machine shop supplied all my engine parts except for the roller rockers which i purchased.
Machine shop installed the mains and cam bearings, all freeze plugs ect.
Machine shop assembled the heads.
I installed everything else.
Machine shop supplied all my engine parts except for the roller rockers which i purchased.
Machine shop installed the mains and cam bearings, all freeze plugs ect.
Machine shop assembled the heads.
I installed everything else.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 08:44:30 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 08:44:30 PM
When I remove two rear lifters and spend the oil pump I have a oil flow
This is good news
I suppose I will take my lifters apart and clean them and then retest
This is good news
I suppose I will take my lifters apart and clean them and then retest
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2013, 09:41:58 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2013, 09:41:58 PM
There you go that is what i said. I thought you tried that. Sometimes the gallies are not as posted by your print because it SAYS TYPICAL!! A few posts back i advised in installing a new lifter. BUT 16 NOT OILING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you in fact have oil flowing in the gallies you are golden and have to concentrate on the lifters. You need to measure the lifter groove and see where it intersects with the oil supply in the GALLIES. This is of course if the gallies have a good flow of oil. Jay are you using OLD LIFTERS??? And if yes WHY??? Just curious.
Here is what is bothering me. You had the engine running correct?? If you did did the lifters PUMP UP. Another words were they loud then go QUIET?? If so the lifters were oiling. Once again it takes time for the oil to travel up the push rods. And depending on the lifter design can take a while. I am getting the feeling thae engine was working properly. I should have asked this earlier. Because like i said those lifters are most likely BALL CHECK and they take forever to oil the top end. So was the engine NOISY and quiet down when it was running. Or was it ticking away like a sewing machine?? Thanks
Here is what is bothering me. You had the engine running correct?? If you did did the lifters PUMP UP. Another words were they loud then go QUIET?? If so the lifters were oiling. Once again it takes time for the oil to travel up the push rods. And depending on the lifter design can take a while. I am getting the feeling thae engine was working properly. I should have asked this earlier. Because like i said those lifters are most likely BALL CHECK and they take forever to oil the top end. So was the engine NOISY and quiet down when it was running. Or was it ticking away like a sewing machine?? Thanks
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 10:34:02 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 10:34:02 PM
tom,
my earlier post said i had oil flow from the primary galley to the passanger and driver lifter galley however, i dont know how it should look as far as presure is concerned.
when i look down inside the lifter hole, the oil kind shots out about 1/4 of an inch before it drops down,, its weak looking.
yes to old lifters.
I have a set from the explorer motor which is not in this motor right now.
I have a set that was running in my sons bird and these were doing just fine.
I took cyl 4 and cyl 8 lifters out and took them appart then cleaned them out and assembled back with assembly lube.
both pairs of lifters pumped back up i suppose because they have become rock hard again.
the push rods are clear ,, its like there isnt enough presure to make it to the top of the push rods.
from what i could see down cyl 4 and cyl 8 lifter holes, i was hoping to see oil shooting straight across the whole galley,, what i saw was oil kinda puking out ,, looked nothing like what shoots out down at the oil filter without a filter installed.
I had mentioned that i did get the motor started and as i listened, i heard too much top end noise. It wasnt a bad clatter but it was noisy.. softer so to speak but.... during that time i did have the roller rockers installed.
I am using old lifters because no one seemed to think it was an issue so i didnt focus on a budget for new ones when these look fine.
one full set came from my sons running bird so thats what is in there now.
tell me what good oil presure should look like as it enters the passanger side lifter galley... what is see appears to confirm low presure.
if its low, there must be another reason upstream towards the filter.
the oil galley drawing i supplied is a diagram striaght from the oem shop manual, it agrees with the 302 design and in some respects the 460 and further more its typical of a bow tie in some respects i would think.
let me know what good oil flow looks like in the area i described above
my earlier post said i had oil flow from the primary galley to the passanger and driver lifter galley however, i dont know how it should look as far as presure is concerned.
when i look down inside the lifter hole, the oil kind shots out about 1/4 of an inch before it drops down,, its weak looking.
yes to old lifters.
I have a set from the explorer motor which is not in this motor right now.
I have a set that was running in my sons bird and these were doing just fine.
I took cyl 4 and cyl 8 lifters out and took them appart then cleaned them out and assembled back with assembly lube.
both pairs of lifters pumped back up i suppose because they have become rock hard again.
the push rods are clear ,, its like there isnt enough presure to make it to the top of the push rods.
from what i could see down cyl 4 and cyl 8 lifter holes, i was hoping to see oil shooting straight across the whole galley,, what i saw was oil kinda puking out ,, looked nothing like what shoots out down at the oil filter without a filter installed.
I had mentioned that i did get the motor started and as i listened, i heard too much top end noise. It wasnt a bad clatter but it was noisy.. softer so to speak but.... during that time i did have the roller rockers installed.
I am using old lifters because no one seemed to think it was an issue so i didnt focus on a budget for new ones when these look fine.
one full set came from my sons running bird so thats what is in there now.
tell me what good oil presure should look like as it enters the passanger side lifter galley... what is see appears to confirm low presure.
if its low, there must be another reason upstream towards the filter.
the oil galley drawing i supplied is a diagram striaght from the oem shop manual, it agrees with the 302 design and in some respects the 460 and further more its typical of a bow tie in some respects i would think.
let me know what good oil flow looks like in the area i described above
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2013, 10:49:35 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2013, 10:49:35 PM
OK here is what to do. First install a gauge in the side of the block. Where the sender goes and install all the lifters and spin the shaft at 1000 RPM. That simulates 2000 ENGINE RPM. Post the pressure. Should be around 40-50 LBS. Then remove one of the lifters furthest from the pump. Spin the engine and post pressure. It shoild drop a lot. The flow you see in the gallies is steady and FAT. When looking at it. It does not flow fast as the pressures are down because yo have no restriction with the lifter removed!!. With that you should put the lifter back and see if it oils from the hole in the push rod socket. That should flow after a while. Once this happens you are oiling the lifters. Try this take apart a lifter completely and install it in the rear lifter bore. Make sure the lifter is on the base of the cam. NO LIFT!! Then spin the pump again. Does oil fill the lifter??? If not you have your answer. The lifter is not intersecting with the GALLEYS. We as i said use side orifice lifters on chevys and sometimes i have to grind a relief to get oil up to the push rod. Check the depth of the lifter in the bore and where the GROOVE intersects with the gallies. If the groove does not intersect with the oil flow it cant pump up and provide oil to the rockers. This must be checked and post back!! Good luck. Better yet post a photo or video of the galley oil flow at 1000 RPM which is 2000 crank RPM'S I am beginning to think you did not have an issue at all. I was very strange to me that you had no oil at the lifter BODY. If in fact the lifters did not get oil they would never PUMP UP. And i think yours did as i go over it in my MIND. This can also be checked by bleeding down a lifter and install it on the base of the cam. Install the rocker and push rod and feel the pre load. Rocker will push down the push rod with yout thumb pressure on the push rod end. Them rotate the pump and see if the lifter PUMPS UP. You will know this when the rocker can not be pushed down with yout thumb pressure. Try this and post back. Or better yet use the rotating push rod method!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 11:41:08 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 20, 2013, 11:41:08 PM
tom,
these are stock oem lifters made for this motor,
why would i need to check to see "if" the lifter interstects the galley correctly.
?????
this is not a modified motor at all, its 100% stock except for the .020 bore.
all stock parts and same ratio rockers.
your the second person to say that i may need to knotch out lifter galley on the upper edge to allow better lubrication up into the pin hole on the side of the lifter.
i have to wonder why when all this is stock
these are stock oem lifters made for this motor,
why would i need to check to see "if" the lifter interstects the galley correctly.
?????
this is not a modified motor at all, its 100% stock except for the .020 bore.
all stock parts and same ratio rockers.
your the second person to say that i may need to knotch out lifter galley on the upper edge to allow better lubrication up into the pin hole on the side of the lifter.
i have to wonder why when all this is stock
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 21, 2013, 02:38:03 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 21, 2013, 02:38:03 AM
i did have the engine running this past saturday morning, it ran for about 30 seconds with me helping it at the trottle body, i know timing was a little off but... it sounded somewhat noisy up top and stoped the test.
if i have to run it longer dry like this just to get oil up top , thats awful
ive never needed this much time before to see oil up top.
i will try the gutted lifter in the rear two bores and see how well they fill up.. will also post oil pressure tests.
i need to get this solved though and determine if it needs to get back on a stand or not.
the machine shop also said they can take it and figure it out for me.
either way, its been too long, it doesnt take 4 days to get a motor running with all the correct parts.
question though,, if i have a clog in the primary oil galley, and have my oil presure guage installed down at the sender area,, the guage willl be reading good oil presure because the blockage isnt down there... assuming there is a blockage.
i could install the guage on the primary galley at the rear of the block but that would mean getting the flywheel out of the way.
if i have to run it longer dry like this just to get oil up top , thats awful
ive never needed this much time before to see oil up top.
i will try the gutted lifter in the rear two bores and see how well they fill up.. will also post oil pressure tests.
i need to get this solved though and determine if it needs to get back on a stand or not.
the machine shop also said they can take it and figure it out for me.
either way, its been too long, it doesnt take 4 days to get a motor running with all the correct parts.
question though,, if i have a clog in the primary oil galley, and have my oil presure guage installed down at the sender area,, the guage willl be reading good oil presure because the blockage isnt down there... assuming there is a blockage.
i could install the guage on the primary galley at the rear of the block but that would mean getting the flywheel out of the way.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 21, 2013, 06:07:31 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 21, 2013, 06:07:31 AM
NO NO what you are doing is installing a gauge at the sender with all the lifters in place and then remove one. This will reduce the pressure on the gauge telling you the gallies are bleeding off. Once again that is why i am leaning twords the fact you may not have an issue because the engine is stock. Either way checking the intersection area cant hurt. You have an issue as you said and i a not 100% sure you do. So checking is the only thing you can do. Also getting an engine to run after a rebuild should be dun with a couple of cranks and it should run fairly good. You should not have to flog the throttle. Starting a fresh engine is very critical because you need it to run correctly to Evaluate it for things like lifter noise. The exact issue you have. When you set this up again take a little extra time to get the timing closer for a clean start. That is very important. Good luck
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 21, 2013, 09:35:30 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 21, 2013, 09:35:30 AM
im fairly certain ill have normal oil presure if mounted down at the sender area, that has no problem that i can see by "looks" of oil discharge ,, will do that this am.
my dewalt drill only goes to 800rpm though,
when it is under an oil pump load it "feels" like its rpm is only at 80% with the trigger all the way in.
my dewalt drill only goes to 800rpm though,
when it is under an oil pump load it "feels" like its rpm is only at 80% with the trigger all the way in.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 23, 2013, 01:28:00 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 23, 2013, 01:28:00 AM
resorted to pulling motor back out again and its on a stand with all accessories.
i even took the time to tear down each lifter and clean all the individual pieces parts along with buffing out any wear and assembled back.
the machine shop recommended a lifter modification and i took one down to get it done, makes sense to me how he explained that this mod greatly improves lubrication flow and sorta corrects a ford problem with these roller rockers.
installed all the lifters with the one that is mod'd and still no oil.
with a better view now that the motor is on a stand and is lower, im spinning the drill in the dizzy hole and i see a flood of oil up front in the opening of the lifter valley up were you can barely see the timing chain.
i feel around and find where a plug should be, i spin the drill and sure enough, the passanger side dead end lifter galley has no plug in it.
shown below is where the plug should be.
given i have paid 1360$ , and lost a substantial amount of time,, given that this is a really nice shop with all kinds of ability, and given the guy is nice a hell, has offered to come to my house and look at the motor ect, this is a difficult ass chewing to balance out.
one part of me wants some degree of compensation, and the other part of me says, let it play out and he will probably take it easy on me on my next project.
either way we are all human but things like this that cost other people time and money and to be honest, in our case he ruined the fun i wanted to have with my son, i am a good fair amount of pissed off.
what to do next,
i ran the motor about 45 seconds and knowing that i started off with .00094 oil clearance on my mains, and .0011 on my rods, what kind of wear do i expect given i held the engine rpm up to around 2500rpm this long.
oh well, ill wait to see what you all think.
i even took the time to tear down each lifter and clean all the individual pieces parts along with buffing out any wear and assembled back.
the machine shop recommended a lifter modification and i took one down to get it done, makes sense to me how he explained that this mod greatly improves lubrication flow and sorta corrects a ford problem with these roller rockers.
installed all the lifters with the one that is mod'd and still no oil.
with a better view now that the motor is on a stand and is lower, im spinning the drill in the dizzy hole and i see a flood of oil up front in the opening of the lifter valley up were you can barely see the timing chain.
i feel around and find where a plug should be, i spin the drill and sure enough, the passanger side dead end lifter galley has no plug in it.
shown below is where the plug should be.
given i have paid 1360$ , and lost a substantial amount of time,, given that this is a really nice shop with all kinds of ability, and given the guy is nice a hell, has offered to come to my house and look at the motor ect, this is a difficult ass chewing to balance out.
one part of me wants some degree of compensation, and the other part of me says, let it play out and he will probably take it easy on me on my next project.
either way we are all human but things like this that cost other people time and money and to be honest, in our case he ruined the fun i wanted to have with my son, i am a good fair amount of pissed off.
what to do next,
i ran the motor about 45 seconds and knowing that i started off with .00094 oil clearance on my mains, and .0011 on my rods, what kind of wear do i expect given i held the engine rpm up to around 2500rpm this long.
oh well, ill wait to see what you all think.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 23, 2013, 02:18:10 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 23, 2013, 02:18:10 AM
and for the record.
with my lifters both on thier base circle thus both valves closed... i can stuff a hose up in the heads and blow air and i barely a tiny bit of air blowing buy.
how worried should i be over all.
something tells me not having valves seat perfeclty will effect my overall compression,
yeah im tired, its late,, i pissed.
with my lifters both on thier base circle thus both valves closed... i can stuff a hose up in the heads and blow air and i barely a tiny bit of air blowing buy.
how worried should i be over all.
something tells me not having valves seat perfeclty will effect my overall compression,
yeah im tired, its late,, i pissed.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 05:18:21 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 05:18:21 AM
Front cam galley plug missing. SHAME on the machinist and the assembly guy!!! All plugs removed during cleaning should be accounted for. Another words when doing the bare block Freeze plugs and gallie plugs you put them in a container count them and make sure they are in place and sealed properly.This is normal procedure on a rebuild. This should have been easy to detect as the PRE pressure check on the stand would have revealed this as the pressure at the sender would have been very low. That is why i always do a pressure check on the stand. But we are human and things happen.
Note with a galley plug missing your initial pre lube would have pinned that out in 2 seconds. Always do a static test before buttoning up an engine. It would have saved you all this aggravation. Basically what you had was a GIANT OIL LEAK IN THE PRESSURE SIDE OF THE SYSTEM. Good Luck. I would run the engine and have the machinist guarantee it well beyond his normal warranty. Whatever that is??
Note with a galley plug missing your initial pre lube would have pinned that out in 2 seconds. Always do a static test before buttoning up an engine. It would have saved you all this aggravation. Basically what you had was a GIANT OIL LEAK IN THE PRESSURE SIDE OF THE SYSTEM. Good Luck. I would run the engine and have the machinist guarantee it well beyond his normal warranty. Whatever that is??
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 05:37:36 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 05:37:36 AM
Quote from: jcassity;420489
and for the record.
with my lifters both on thier base circle thus both valves closed... i can stuff a hose up in the heads and blow air and i barely a tiny bit of air blowing buy.
how worried should i be over all.
something tells me not having valves seat perfeclty will effect my overall compression,
yeah im tired, its late,, i pissed.
Install the plug and run that engine. I think you will be OK. Get some rest you found the issue call it a day. Remember always do a PRE TEST before butting up an engine. You would have picked this up on the stand. I always pre test on the stand to adjust oil pressure statically. Good luck JAY!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 23, 2013, 11:59:11 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 23, 2013, 11:59:11 AM
I did pick up the problem while it was on the stand,, never got oil then, didnt get oil in the bay, dont have oil now,,,
but i found the issue.
im so glad i keep on looking because you were not the only person to say i might not have an issue... just give the lifters a little more time to build.
The issue here is that we were give our engine parts so late in the game,, my son was doing one thing and I another,, he put the timing chain and cover on.. he was not technically capapble of noting the missing plug,, at 8pm on a friday and having to have a running car the following day, the focuse was """"ASSEMBLE!!
so how should i handle this with the shop?
but i found the issue.
im so glad i keep on looking because you were not the only person to say i might not have an issue... just give the lifters a little more time to build.
The issue here is that we were give our engine parts so late in the game,, my son was doing one thing and I another,, he put the timing chain and cover on.. he was not technically capapble of noting the missing plug,, at 8pm on a friday and having to have a running car the following day, the focuse was """"ASSEMBLE!!
so how should i handle this with the shop?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 06:27:30 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 06:27:30 PM
The shop messed up. But bottom line is the person assembling the engine. You have to check everything TWICE. Put it together and call it a DAY. Not trying to be critical. but this issue should have been caught by the builder. You can not rush when assembling an engine. To much at stake. That is why i do it in a desperate room and lock the door and hang the sign not to disturb. 2 people can not build an engine. And once again always replace everything removed from the engine and store the parts in a basket or paint bucket ETC. Things happen i know but that missing plug should have been caught either by you your son or the builder. Good luck and carry on.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 23, 2013, 07:24:37 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 23, 2013, 07:24:37 PM
Tom,
With the plug missing in the location it was missing what are the chances that the main and rod bearings were hurt? My guess is that they were not as the leak was past them but I am not sure of that. I am not thinking this would have been a question of volume but would have there been enough pressure to maintain the thin film of oil necessary between the bearing surfaces and the crank surfaces?
Jay,
My take on the machine work is that if you pay someone to do a job they should do it. If the machinist was charged with installing all of the freeze plugs and oil galley plugs then he should have done so. I my line of work I cannot recheck all of the work that is to be done that I assign to my guys or what would be the reason to have them do the work? We pay good money to people everyday and expect them to do their job for the wage that is paid and this is no different. What should the compensation be? I am not sure but the one thing that any person has to give is time so I would at least expect some kind of written agreement to knock of some dollars on the next project he did for me. People make mistakes so that is not the issue, the issue is he was paid not to make mistakes.
Darren
With the plug missing in the location it was missing what are the chances that the main and rod bearings were hurt? My guess is that they were not as the leak was past them but I am not sure of that. I am not thinking this would have been a question of volume but would have there been enough pressure to maintain the thin film of oil necessary between the bearing surfaces and the crank surfaces?
Jay,
My take on the machine work is that if you pay someone to do a job they should do it. If the machinist was charged with installing all of the freeze plugs and oil galley plugs then he should have done so. I my line of work I cannot recheck all of the work that is to be done that I assign to my guys or what would be the reason to have them do the work? We pay good money to people everyday and expect them to do their job for the wage that is paid and this is no different. What should the compensation be? I am not sure but the one thing that any person has to give is time so I would at least expect some kind of written agreement to knock of some dollars on the next project he did for me. People make mistakes so that is not the issue, the issue is he was paid not to make mistakes.
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 23, 2013, 10:17:40 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 23, 2013, 10:17:40 PM
well f#$& me~~~!!!!!!!!!!!
the top one that looks like it had a punch on it recenly had a hole to the side you cant see.
so two had to come out, coming in from the rear with a long as 1/4'' screwdriver i have.
the top one that looks like it had a punch on it recenly had a hole to the side you cant see.
so two had to come out, coming in from the rear with a long as 1/4'' screwdriver i have.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 23, 2013, 10:19:49 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 23, 2013, 10:19:49 PM
oh well, the fugger is oilling now with my mock up rocers.
tomorrow will test with the rollers and shim as required.
tomorrow will test with the rollers and shim as required.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 11:08:50 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 11:08:50 PM
@ Aerocoupe. That engine is fine and not hurt one bit. BUT one has to wonder what else may be wrong with the work performed. Over the course of many years i have seen some very bad machine shop work. As far as your question i have seen many a 2.3 with the CAM PLUG sitting in the back of the head laying there and wiping out a cam. But the bottom end is fine. It really does not take much oil pressure to lube the rotating assembly. Remember lets say the engine made 10PSI of pressure. That is PLENTY. Always double check stuff. Never trust anyones work. That will bite you in the TAIL. All is well but what happened here and pardon my bluntness. Was an engine slammed together to make a deadline and not checked and assembled properly. NEVER RUSH an Engine BUILD!!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 11:17:47 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 11:17:47 PM
Jay just something to think about!!!! When Pontiac engines were popular and they still are i used to drill a tiny hole in one of those plugs to oil the TC with pressurized oil. It actually used to SQUIRT ON THE CHAIN and make the chain live longer. On SBC engines i drill a small hole in the TIMING gear thrush face for the same reason. But on the SBC where i drill the hole it intersects with the reliefs of the gear and intermittently squirts 4 times. Every time the RELIEFS lines up with the hole. The installed plug with the hole shows very poor workmenship on the machinist side. Clearly he used a punch to install that plug that was to small. Those gallies should have been TAPPED for pipe plugs or allen bolts and sealed properly. Sorry to say your machinist is a PUTS!!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 11:22:24 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 11:22:24 PM
Just an example of checking things out thoroughly!!! Never trust ANYONE. Or any part!!!
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/null_zpse89b2009.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/tfalconier/media/null_zpse89b2009.jpg.html)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/null_zpse89b2009.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/tfalconier/media/null_zpse89b2009.jpg.html)
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 11:26:52 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 23, 2013, 11:26:52 PM
There you go JAY pressurizing the engine on the stand. That is what i am talking about. If you would have dun it before this post would have been NULL and VOID. Always check an engine for proper lubrication on the stand. And if you hook up a gauge you can make Oil pressure static adjustments right on the spot.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 24, 2013, 12:28:24 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 24, 2013, 12:28:24 AM
At least you got it working. That was a pain.
I remember when I went to pick up the engine in my Thunderbird from the machine shop that shop had had filled the pan with oil, spun the oil pump, and made sure the engine made pressure and flowed ok before they would let me take it. They did that so I wouldn't run into what you did. My engine was assembled by the shop though. The engine was drained before I took it home. It would have been silly to leave it full of oil ;).
I remember when I went to pick up the engine in my Thunderbird from the machine shop that shop had had filled the pan with oil, spun the oil pump, and made sure the engine made pressure and flowed ok before they would let me take it. They did that so I wouldn't run into what you did. My engine was assembled by the shop though. The engine was drained before I took it home. It would have been silly to leave it full of oil ;).
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 24, 2013, 04:03:08 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 24, 2013, 04:03:08 AM
tom~third time here,
i did checkit first of all on a stand, thats where this whole thing started
i did checkit first of all on a stand, thats where this whole thing started
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 24, 2013, 04:06:41 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 24, 2013, 04:06:41 AM
also, my engne machine work was due by 12aug.
we got our engine block at 5pm 15 aug
we got our heads at 3pm 16 aug
my sone had to be to work at 4pm 17aug.
my original post stated that we explained my deadline to the machinest,,
but yes, it is our fault for not finding it.
i asked "what does good oil presure look like" when the oil archs across the rear two lifter bores and got no answer.
now i know what it looks like back there.
we got our engine block at 5pm 15 aug
we got our heads at 3pm 16 aug
my sone had to be to work at 4pm 17aug.
my original post stated that we explained my deadline to the machinest,,
but yes, it is our fault for not finding it.
i asked "what does good oil presure look like" when the oil archs across the rear two lifter bores and got no answer.
now i know what it looks like back there.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 24, 2013, 09:19:58 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 24, 2013, 09:19:58 AM
JAY i posted it is a stream not a rush of oil. I answered you question and it really does not matter. As a missing plug in the front of the engine GALLEY upsets the whole mess. As you posted above those rockers are oiling and it sure looks like you Pre loubed with the front cover OFF. This would have saved tuns of issues gaskets and time if dun in the beginning. I do understand that you do not assemble engines every day. So looking at oil flows takes a lot of experience and knowledge. With that you are good to go so ponder on. As far as the engine being delivered on time once again I NEVER SET A DEADLINE for delivering an engine. Once itis dun i call and i make sure it is checked out completely. This is one reason i personally do not do parts of an engine i do the whole thing. And before i do an engine for a customer i take HIS OR HER DIZZY. Upon completing the instillation i have the customer either bring me the car or i get it install the DIZZY and i start it. NOT THE CUSTOMER. This is of course debatable on the skill set of the customer. With that have a great day and BUTTON UP THAT MILL. Thanks
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 24, 2013, 03:56:22 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 24, 2013, 03:56:22 PM
Jay as a FYI when you get the roller rockers set the rocker shouldn't be noisy. They will be a bit louder than the stock rockers in your Cougar but there should be no tapping or rattling. The roller rockers on my Thunderbird are torqued to 20 ft/lbs with a think shim under each rocker. It took ½ turn on each rocker bolt to reach that torque number. Using the stock pushrods that torque spec gave me a lifter preload of .030 inches on all of the lifters. The valvetrain is quiet. It’s a little louder than the stock one in my Mark VII but it has no tapping or clanking what so ever. With the cam I have (slight overlap and a bit of lope) it idles at 700 rpm hot in park and 650 rpm hot in drive and pulls 17” of vacuum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4alJMV1cG2k
Also when setting the base idle on the engine use a tach/dwell meter. The stock tachs are off by about 200-300 rpm, at least my digital one in my Thunderbird is.
Also when setting the base idle on the engine use a tach/dwell meter. The stock tachs are off by about 200-300 rpm, at least my digital one in my Thunderbird is.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 24, 2013, 10:11:13 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 24, 2013, 10:11:13 PM
Quote from: jcassity;420525
tom~third time here,
i did checkit first of all on a stand, thats where this whole thing started
Jay i must be missing something. If you checked it on the stand why in the world would you install it in the car AND RUN IT IF IT WAS NOT OILING THE ROCKERS Just curious
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 24, 2013, 10:17:08 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 24, 2013, 10:17:08 PM
Thunder jet how thick was the shim you used?? And i am just curious why you would shim a pedestal if FORD says PRE LOAD can be as high as .080. Shimming the stands changes the geometry did you check the contact area. Just a question!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 24, 2013, 10:41:56 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 24, 2013, 10:41:56 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;420560
Thunder jet how thick was the shim you used?? And i am just curious why you would shim a pedestal if FORD says PRE LOAD can be as high as .080. Shimming the stands changes the geometry did you check the contact area. Just a question!!
Off the top of my head I'm not sure but the Ford kit has both thick and thin shims that reduce preload by .030 (thin) and .060 (thick). I had to use a shim under each rocker because with stock length pushrods the rocker wasn't able to be torqued to 20 ft/lbs in under 1 turn. The shim kit allows the user to make the pedestal slightly taller, allowing the rocker to work with the stock length pushrods. The shims reduce the lifter preload. These instructions probably explain it better: http://cranecams.com/uploads/instructions/453e_.pdf
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 24, 2013, 11:54:45 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 24, 2013, 11:54:45 PM
I got that and i think .030 is a great place for them to be. As i set all my LS engines @ 1/2 turn as well.Which comes to something like .050 And just about every other engine i build. Just wanted to chat with you about it thanks. I do it with push rod length to keep the geometry correct. But your method is fine and a shim @or around .050 is neglible with respect to geometry. Thanks Again.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 25, 2013, 09:21:19 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 25, 2013, 09:21:19 AM
hey tom, i posted a thread "someonen pls call me",, but stopped posting to that one.
THat was the day i could not get oil to the top.
The machine shop recommended i suck it up and drop it in , the lifters will eventually pump up.
i dropped the motor in because its my fault , i should have not listened to him.
I ran the engine for i guess around 30 or 40 seconds at about 2800 to 3k rpm.,, no oil up top.
i pulled it out and kept asking questions, digging into the motor then finally found the issue.
I was very close to dropping the motor in again when i started hearing folks saying "those lifters may need a little longer to pump up".
i decided to dig in deeper,
so,, thats what i meant earlier.
as for shims, i have concluded i dont need any after taking a few measurements.
my pushrod uses up .084 of the lifter while the lifter is on the base circle and rocker torqued.
I watched the lifter spring fight the valve spring while rotating the crank and running a drill on the oil pump.
I reach torque at 1/3rd of a turn on my torque wrench.
i should be ok,, i thought so because these are stock ratio 1.6's, and the heads were milled .020.
re-assembled everything yesterday and dropped the motor in the bay, today hope to start.
THat was the day i could not get oil to the top.
The machine shop recommended i suck it up and drop it in , the lifters will eventually pump up.
i dropped the motor in because its my fault , i should have not listened to him.
I ran the engine for i guess around 30 or 40 seconds at about 2800 to 3k rpm.,, no oil up top.
i pulled it out and kept asking questions, digging into the motor then finally found the issue.
I was very close to dropping the motor in again when i started hearing folks saying "those lifters may need a little longer to pump up".
i decided to dig in deeper,
so,, thats what i meant earlier.
as for shims, i have concluded i dont need any after taking a few measurements.
my pushrod uses up .084 of the lifter while the lifter is on the base circle and rocker torqued.
I watched the lifter spring fight the valve spring while rotating the crank and running a drill on the oil pump.
I reach torque at 1/3rd of a turn on my torque wrench.
i should be ok,, i thought so because these are stock ratio 1.6's, and the heads were milled .020.
re-assembled everything yesterday and dropped the motor in the bay, today hope to start.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 25, 2013, 10:00:15 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 25, 2013, 10:00:15 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;420562
Off the top of my head I'm not sure but the Ford kit has both thick and thin shims that reduce preload by .030 (thin) and .060 (thick). I had to use a shim under each rocker because with stock length pushrods the rocker wasn't able to be torqued to 20 ft/lbs in under 1 turn. f[/url]
i was under some impression (with your lifters on the base circle) that you want to hit your torque in less than 3/4 to less than 1/2 turn from where the pedastal is snug to the floor.
if you go deeper, your taking away from your pumping action of your full capability of the spring in the lifter., ie- reducing its overall final installed height.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 25, 2013, 03:23:19 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 25, 2013, 03:23:19 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;420565
I got that and i think .030 is a great place for them to be. As i set all my LS engines @ 1/2 turn as well.Which comes to something like .050 And just about every other engine i build. Just wanted to chat with you about it thanks. I do it with push rod length to keep the geometry correct. But your method is fine and a shim @or around .050 is neglible with respect to geometry. Thanks Again.
No problem. I thought the link would explain it better than I could. As long as you use the shims in the kit you don't chang the rocker geometry. You can use at the most one thick and one thin shim per rocker. Any more and the geometry is screwed up. I tried my setup with no shims and got more than 1turn to get 20 ft/lbs. It ended up being around .080 lifter preload. With a thin shim I got about 1 turn to hit 20 ft/lbs. That was the high side of the spec .060 inch of lifter preload. With the thick shim I got 1/2 turn to hit 20 ft/lbs which gave me .030 inch of lifter preload which I think is the best amount. The reason I need a thick shim was because I have non stock heads, cam, and head gaskets which ended up being slightly shorter than stock. I used the shims because they allowed proper lifter preload without changing geometry. The other option would have been to get 6.20 inch pushrods to replace the stock 6.27 inch pushrods. I could have ordered the heads I have with stud mount rockers but I ordered the pedestal mount heads because I already had pedestal mount rockers from the gt40 heads I was running before.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 25, 2013, 03:26:14 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 25, 2013, 03:26:14 PM
Quote from: jcassity;420576
i was under some impression (with your lifters on the base circle) that you want to hit your torque in less than 3/4 to less than 1/2 turn from where the pedastal is snug to the floor.
if you go deeper, your taking away from your pumping action of your full capability of the spring in the lifter., ie- reducing its overall final installed height.
You're right. You want to hit the torque spec in about 1/2 turn with roller rockers at zero lash. If you can do that without shims you're good to go.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 25, 2013, 06:01:22 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 25, 2013, 06:01:22 PM
Sounds good thunder you have a good understanding of the PRE-LOAD. On other sites it takes me 3 pages to explain it to some guys. Remember push rod length is push rod length plain and simple. BUT!!! Ford says a complete turn or .120 is max. personally i do not go that far. Thanks!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 25, 2013, 11:00:26 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 25, 2013, 11:00:26 PM
well,
had the same issue with timing and overall running, then about time to knock off, i kinda refused and kept pokin around,,,
Pulling my hair out second guessing myself here and there, adjust the timing this way a tooth then that way a tooth, verifiying with my timing light ect...
Finally..............
i found where my son had apparenltly man handled the TPS connector and the black wire was barely hanging into the green rubber boot on the back.
I jumpered past the connector , dialed tdc once again then she started up.
all is well,,,, and then the power steering hose blew right off the pump housing out of its fitting.
oh joy!
had the same issue with timing and overall running, then about time to knock off, i kinda refused and kept pokin around,,,
Pulling my hair out second guessing myself here and there, adjust the timing this way a tooth then that way a tooth, verifiying with my timing light ect...
Finally..............
i found where my son had apparenltly man handled the TPS connector and the black wire was barely hanging into the green rubber boot on the back.
I jumpered past the connector , dialed tdc once again then she started up.
all is well,,,, and then the power steering hose blew right off the pump housing out of its fitting.
oh joy!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: beast50 on August 26, 2013, 02:14:03 AM
Post by: beast50 on August 26, 2013, 02:14:03 AM
how does she run?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2013, 05:56:17 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2013, 05:56:17 AM
Thats good have a great day Jay. Now you can relax!!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:32:02 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:32:02 AM
Quote from: beast50;420610
how does she run?
havent driven it yet, but it sounds like a different car totally, i need to solve two remaining items
-fix the blown power steering pump hose, this is a **HELL** connection down on the rack if i replace the hose.,, looking for opinons here,, can i flair / double flair?
-plug off the smog pipe fitting which i will simply rig something up.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:36:36 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:36:36 AM
question,,
-i have two 02 sensors which have no bungs to attach to down on the headers.
-my son can handle getting this rectified later.
#1
Can i run the car with the o2 sensors tied back somewhere? Why in the hell do they get so friggin how to the touch? they are currently zip tied to the hvac hose but since i felt them getting really hot, i worry about them burning something. are these things little heaters or what,,?
do i have any substantial disadvantages by sparing back the 02's like this because i really dont need to deal with this part right now...need to get the car out of the bay and my youngest boys car in to start that project.
a little background,, Mason my oldest boy said not to put any of the smog plumbing back on so the passanger side is minus the emissions tubing and with an opening that needs plugged on the passanger exhaust pipe. He's been short belted for almost two years now.
I am recommending he keep all the smog pipes because one day he may have a stringent inspection which will require the parts to remain on the car.
I recommended he and I put the smog plumbing back on the car but he did not want to so i will toss it all in the trunk , its up to him to deal with when he gets a Virginia inspection,, currently he is a wv resident but i feel his clock is ticking and hes gonna have to move there permanent.
#2
I now have GT40 heads with no pipe along the rear of the heads,, i guess this is internal EGR. When running the motor, i see no EGR movement at all and would like to know if there is something i need to worry about or let it just sit there not moving and call it good. with external EGR on the old heads, the egr moved ,,im sure now i am dumping an egr code,,, opinions?
-i have two 02 sensors which have no bungs to attach to down on the headers.
-my son can handle getting this rectified later.
#1
Can i run the car with the o2 sensors tied back somewhere? Why in the hell do they get so friggin how to the touch? they are currently zip tied to the hvac hose but since i felt them getting really hot, i worry about them burning something. are these things little heaters or what,,?
do i have any substantial disadvantages by sparing back the 02's like this because i really dont need to deal with this part right now...need to get the car out of the bay and my youngest boys car in to start that project.
a little background,, Mason my oldest boy said not to put any of the smog plumbing back on so the passanger side is minus the emissions tubing and with an opening that needs plugged on the passanger exhaust pipe. He's been short belted for almost two years now.
I am recommending he keep all the smog pipes because one day he may have a stringent inspection which will require the parts to remain on the car.
I recommended he and I put the smog plumbing back on the car but he did not want to so i will toss it all in the trunk , its up to him to deal with when he gets a Virginia inspection,, currently he is a wv resident but i feel his clock is ticking and hes gonna have to move there permanent.
#2
I now have GT40 heads with no pipe along the rear of the heads,, i guess this is internal EGR. When running the motor, i see no EGR movement at all and would like to know if there is something i need to worry about or let it just sit there not moving and call it good. with external EGR on the old heads, the egr moved ,,im sure now i am dumping an egr code,,, opinions?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:51:21 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:51:21 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;420614
Thats good have a great day Jay. Now you can relax!!!
not exactly, if the power steering hose thing is not solved, i gotta raise the motor on one side, drop the rack,,, ect ect ect..
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2013, 10:58:12 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2013, 10:58:12 AM
You probably WON'T see the EGR work at idle. Just saying. The O2's get hot because they each have a heater to get them hot and reading faster. As for placement, they're not in the headers, they'll mount in the h-pipe directly below.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 11:23:02 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 11:23:02 AM
this car has separate dual 2'' exhaust..no provision for o2's
either way, can i have them flopping in the wind so to speak without any performance problems? i know i need to have them connected up and they are.
either way, can i have them flopping in the wind so to speak without any performance problems? i know i need to have them connected up and they are.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2013, 12:52:12 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2013, 12:52:12 PM
You'll want them in the pipes. You can't just tie them back. At the very least get some nuts from the hardware store in the same thread as the o2's, cut holes in an opportune position below the headers and weld the nuts on. Then you can mount the o2's. This won't guarantee that you get in the exhaust stream correctly, but it's worked for me on other cars in the past. It depends on how finicky this car is.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 02:54:28 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 02:54:28 PM
ok,, got it.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on August 26, 2013, 07:47:08 PM
Post by: Haystack on August 26, 2013, 07:47:08 PM
I wouldn't be bothered by leaving them unplugged and not hanging temporary. but the car will run richer and get worse gas mileage. if he has a bit of a drive, its not hard to mount them.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 26, 2013, 08:30:38 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 26, 2013, 08:30:38 PM
Quote from: jcassity;420621
question,,
#2
I now have GT40 heads with no pipe along the rear of the heads,, i guess this is internal EGR. When running the motor, i see no EGR movement at all and would like to know if there is something i need to worry about or let it just sit there not moving and call it good. with external EGR on the old heads, the egr moved ,,im sure now i am dumping an egr code,,, opinions?
Actually the EGR works the same as it did before. The intake you have is an internal EGR intake, just like the stock one. The GT40/GT40P heads all have the EGR passage just like every other stock head. The tubes running to the back of the heads are for the Thermactor system. They have nothing to do with the EGR. For instance on my Thunderbird (since it has no cats) I removed the smog pump, thermactor tubing, and the TAB and TAD solenoids without issue. I'm still running the EGR and was when I had GT40P heads on the car.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2013, 09:04:11 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2013, 09:04:11 PM
Jay 18MMX1.5 nuts welded in the pipes and you are dun. Ge out the miller a few sparks and a wif of OZONE and screw the O2 in the pipes and you are GOLDEN. Remember always mount them as vertical as possible. Never DOWN. Good luck on the car. OH YES PS hose not to bad to replace. Just jack up the engine and replace it. I am assuming it is the HI SIDE!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:26:22 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:26:22 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;420649
Actually the EGR works the same as it did before. The intake you have is an internal EGR intake, just like the stock one. The GT40/GT40P heads all have the EGR passage just like every other stock head. The tubes running to the back of the heads are for the Thermactor system. They have nothing to do with the EGR. For instance on my Thunderbird (since it has no cats) I removed the smog pump, thermactor tubing, and the TAB and TAD solenoids without issue. I'm still running the EGR and was when I had GT40P heads on the car.
my EGR is not moving at all that i can see
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:27:46 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: Haystack;420645
I wouldn't be bothered by leaving them unplugged and not hanging temporary. but the car will run richer and get worse gas mileage. if he has a bit of a drive, its not hard to mount them.
the o2 sensors are plugged in
they are not in the exhaust stream yet. that will be my son's issue to solve.
i was asking what are the issues of having them plugged in but not in the exhaust stream
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:29:30 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:29:30 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;420651
Jay 18MMX1.5 nuts welded in the pipes and you are dun. Ge out the miller a few sparks and a wif of OZONE and screw the O2 in the pipes and you are GOLDEN. Remember always mount them as vertical as possible. Never DOWN. Good luck on the car. OH YES PS hose not to bad to replace. Just jack up the engine and replace it. I am assuming it is the HI SIDE!!
naw, i was just kidding, the power steering hoses are cake,, the high presure comes off easy as pie.. you just have to slide the rack/pinion bottie off to the side so you got more room.
its out now, will have new one tomorrow.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2013, 09:32:57 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2013, 09:32:57 PM
The ECM will institute a set voltage for limp in mode if the O2 sensore do not switch and light off. So the car will run fine not great untill they see some oxygen in the exhaust stream. Other than that installing them is MANDATORY. Why chance messing up a good rebuild with an fuel delivery mechanism not working properly. Get them in the exhaust system so you can close this project out. Good luck TOM!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:36:49 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 26, 2013, 09:36:49 PM
Ill see what i can do about that this week then.
i was talking with a service supervisor at the dealer, after he understood i was plugging them in but not having them in the exhaust stream,, he started to imply i may actually run a little lean but not that lean.
i was talking with a service supervisor at the dealer, after he understood i was plugging them in but not having them in the exhaust stream,, he started to imply i may actually run a little lean but not that lean.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2013, 10:35:45 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2013, 10:35:45 PM
If memoy serves me it will un at or around 14. This is from memory. But for sure a new engine wont like that very much. Jay you know they make band clamps with those o2 fittings on them. No welding. just a big hole and a pair of 9/16 wrenches?????????????????
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2013, 10:38:02 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2013, 10:38:02 PM
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/avm-30-2355-250/overview/
Quick and dirty!!!!
Quick and dirty!!!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2013, 11:38:35 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2013, 11:38:35 PM
If you're going to leave them out of the exhaust stream, it's better to just unplug them. This way, the PCM won't waste time trying to light them off, and won't waste fuel trying to alter the mix until they give a reading. just unplug them and let it go to failsafe. Tell Mason not to run it hard, as you don't want to risk over-leaning the engine because nothing is watching the mixture. This isn't the way I'd want to run a fresh build. Because seriously, a pair of tie-rod jam nuts do just fine as o2 ports.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 27, 2013, 10:04:13 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 27, 2013, 10:04:13 AM
earlier tom, did you mean,,,,,,,,,,,
mount the 02 perpendicular to the exhaust section its installed in?
mount the 02 perpendicular to the exhaust section its installed in?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 27, 2013, 12:02:29 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 27, 2013, 12:02:29 PM
Quote from: jcassity;420669
earlier tom, did you mean,,,,,,,,,,,
mount the 02 perpendicular to the exhaust section its installed in?
For reference see the picture on this page: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-640725/overview/make/ford/model/mustang This is about where you should mount the O2 sensors. BTW I've had that particular H-pipe on my Thunderbird for years. It's a nice piece. It was only $110 when I bought it though.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 27, 2013, 12:43:01 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 27, 2013, 12:43:01 PM
Toum can mount the O2 basically anywhere in the exhaust UP Stream of the cat. The closer to the manifold the better. But normally anywhere aroune 180* or90* from the top of the pipe. Never down or close to being pointing down. Sometimes if you tuck it far rnough near the manifold it does not matter. What you have to remember it takes in OUTSIDE AIR. And if it is exposed to road debree or water it is DUN,
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 27, 2013, 01:51:11 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 27, 2013, 01:51:11 PM
What Tom is trying to say is that while the o2 should be installed in the pipe perfectly perpendicular, it's wiring end should be at a slight (5 degrees or less) downward angle relative to the ground (or instead of getting water in them, you'll get oil in them). An o2 sensor samples from the air through it's wiring end, so it needs to be oriented such that any moisture can escape via gravity, yet not so much that it is vulnerable to water and crud from the road. And like the man said, keep it up as high in the system as possible so as to keep it safe from the road and so on.
@thunderjet302, that's the H-Pipe I'm running now. Fits real nice, even around an AOD.
@thunderjet302, that's the H-Pipe I'm running now. Fits real nice, even around an AOD.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 27, 2013, 03:28:00 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 27, 2013, 03:28:00 PM
ok, got it,,
found bungs today
also found a thread chaser to tap threads into my existing exhaust.
my pipe is thick wall stuff, i may try the thread chaser, install the 02's then put the pungs in the trunk for my son later if they give him an issue.
havent had a chance to do compression readings since my tester started failing,,, bought a new one today so i can document this part.....which reminds me,,, i have an old topic i have to bring back up and that will appear on another thread.
i promise it will be very Intriguing
found bungs today
also found a thread chaser to tap threads into my existing exhaust.
my pipe is thick wall stuff, i may try the thread chaser, install the 02's then put the pungs in the trunk for my son later if they give him an issue.
havent had a chance to do compression readings since my tester started failing,,, bought a new one today so i can document this part.....which reminds me,,, i have an old topic i have to bring back up and that will appear on another thread.
i promise it will be very Intriguing
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 27, 2013, 10:39:57 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 27, 2013, 10:39:57 PM
well, almost made it out of the bay and down the road but ............. a transmission line fitting at the transmission started to puke.
probably due to use bumping or moving them,, fickle s.
probably due to use bumping or moving them,, fickle s.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 27, 2013, 10:47:34 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 27, 2013, 10:47:34 PM
Buy new fittings. I had the same problem, and I fought with it for days until I just gave up and bought 2 new fittings for the side of the trans. Been dry now for months.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Haystack on August 27, 2013, 10:57:56 PM
Post by: Haystack on August 27, 2013, 10:57:56 PM
you can get them anywhere if you can find the dorman.part number.
I like my fix better though. t-5.
I like my fix better though. t-5.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 28, 2013, 09:54:31 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 28, 2013, 09:54:31 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;420714
Buy new fittings. I had the same problem, and I fought with it for days until I just gave up and bought 2 new fittings for the side of the trans. Been dry now for months.
i purchased a half dozen a couple years ago but the "look" different than the originals.
gonna find out today if they work.
bought them from the dealer, 70 some dollars for a half dozen if i recall correctly.
i think the dealer gave me an equal type part....
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 12:31:59 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 12:31:59 AM
got some O2 sensor bungs, my son can have them welded later, his exhaust is very thick so i cut threads for the install. these are very easy to get to in the future.
a couple shots of the car, took it out today for the first time on a serious run.
The car tends to like its idle a little high for my taste,, 900rpm there abouts but its all good.
will pull codes tomorrow and get compression readings now that it has about 100 miles on the build.
we have a noise in the bell housing i gotta nail down,, after the car warms up, it sounds like the flywheel is barely cherping up against the spacer,, not sure whats up with that, no noise when motor is cold.
i will also send mason down the road with all his smog garbage, im thinking VA will want that on his car if he decides to become a resident there.
the wiring is still a mess, that can be taken care of now that its proof tested.
a couple shots of the car, took it out today for the first time on a serious run.
The car tends to like its idle a little high for my taste,, 900rpm there abouts but its all good.
will pull codes tomorrow and get compression readings now that it has about 100 miles on the build.
we have a noise in the bell housing i gotta nail down,, after the car warms up, it sounds like the flywheel is barely cherping up against the spacer,, not sure whats up with that, no noise when motor is cold.
i will also send mason down the road with all his smog garbage, im thinking VA will want that on his car if he decides to become a resident there.
the wiring is still a mess, that can be taken care of now that its proof tested.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 09:37:36 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 09:37:36 AM
next up,,
mass air swap in with all my parts i have gathered to do this,, except i still need the mass air wire connector
mass air swap in with all my parts i have gathered to do this,, except i still need the mass air wire connector
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 12:14:56 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 12:14:56 PM
pulled my codes just now with KOEO
22 MAP (vacuum) or BARO signal out of range - MAP
>>>>>>>since my EEC is an HO MKVII, do in need a MKVII MAP?
64 Intake Air Temperature (IAT) or Vane Air Temperature (VAT) signal low or grounded - IAT VAT
>>>>>>>>not sure what to think of this...? engine is cold now so perhaps its just a false reading
53 Throttle Position sensor too high - TPS
63 Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) signal too low TPS
>>both of these codes are probably as a result of running the engine with the black wire on the TPS broken without my knowledge.
this code should go away soon i would think... last reading i took day before yesterday was .885 vdc on the green wire.
I need to check from the green to the black wire though,, i didnt do that originally.
31 EVP - (O, R, M) EVP signal is/was out of range - EVP
>>>>yesterday for the first time i see the EGR moving,, need to check this and see whats up with resepct to the variable resistor or a vack leak to the diaphram...
any thoughts?
22 MAP (vacuum) or BARO signal out of range - MAP
>>>>>>>since my EEC is an HO MKVII, do in need a MKVII MAP?
64 Intake Air Temperature (IAT) or Vane Air Temperature (VAT) signal low or grounded - IAT VAT
>>>>>>>>not sure what to think of this...? engine is cold now so perhaps its just a false reading
53 Throttle Position sensor too high - TPS
63 Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) signal too low TPS
>>both of these codes are probably as a result of running the engine with the black wire on the TPS broken without my knowledge.
this code should go away soon i would think... last reading i took day before yesterday was .885 vdc on the green wire.
I need to check from the green to the black wire though,, i didnt do that originally.
31 EVP - (O, R, M) EVP signal is/was out of range - EVP
>>>>yesterday for the first time i see the EGR moving,, need to check this and see whats up with resepct to the variable resistor or a vack leak to the diaphram...
any thoughts?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 29, 2013, 03:54:14 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 29, 2013, 03:54:14 PM
22- No you shouldn't need a Mark VII MAP sensor. I had a Mark VII computer on my car and now a Mustang A9P, both of which are using the stock MAP/BARO sensor that cam on my Thunderbird without issue (no code thrown). Is they vacuum line to the MAP hooked up correctly? Are the wire connections good?
64- Did you do the KOEO test with the engine cold? If so ignore this. If it comes up again on a KOEO with the engine hot than you may have an issue. The IAT sensor is in the lower intake correct?
53,63- As long as the wires are fine and hooked up this shouldn't be an issue. Try resetting the computer (i.e. disconnect the battery for 15 minutes) and see if it goes away. If not replace the TPS.
31- Check the EGR and its position sensor. Either one could be the problem.
64- Did you do the KOEO test with the engine cold? If so ignore this. If it comes up again on a KOEO with the engine hot than you may have an issue. The IAT sensor is in the lower intake correct?
53,63- As long as the wires are fine and hooked up this shouldn't be an issue. Try resetting the computer (i.e. disconnect the battery for 15 minutes) and see if it goes away. If not replace the TPS.
31- Check the EGR and its position sensor. Either one could be the problem.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 05:35:27 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 05:35:27 PM
vac line to map is good, cant confirm all wiring is perfect to the map but the connector was not damaged nor the wiring entering it.
yes did test with cold engine
yes did test with cold engine
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 05:44:45 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 05:44:45 PM
remember my saying when the engine was on the stand,, that....
with a pair of rockers not installed, i can put a hose into a spark plug hole and blow air in,, and hear it coming out .........
some came out around the rings,
some sounded like it was coming out through the intake
some sounded like it was coming out through the exhaust
so,,
today was the first opportunity i had to do a compression test now that the build has a few miles on it.
i took readings on the motor cold. and with some wd40 sprayed up in the cylinders each.
i retested my low cylinder shown below with a very very hot motor and the results actually went down
thoughts?
i have a few but there are forums designed for that kind of language.
My son just took it back to VA minutes ago, he is happy as a 20yr old could be now he has his birdie back. I keep telling him im overall happy but i have to wonder if there is power missing due to some other issues.
Im thinking valves are not closing all the way because the seat work isnt mating up to the valves themselves just right.
maybe eventually the heads and valves will mate together and seat???? sound possible.
I told my son to take it somewhere and have a leak down test performed along with compression test after a few more hundred miles.
Either that or when he comes home again, we can retorque the head bolts *completely* and see if that helps.
i checked the lower bolts on the outside of the head on either side of cyl 5 and they were correctly torqued.
our orginal torque exceeded the book by an additional 5lbs. i was compensating for any yield the used bolts may have experienced.
perhaps i should have used new head bolts... dono yet.
cylinder / compression
1= 150
2=160
3=160
4=150
5=130 >> retest when hot = 118
6=150
7=150
8=150
with a pair of rockers not installed, i can put a hose into a spark plug hole and blow air in,, and hear it coming out .........
some came out around the rings,
some sounded like it was coming out through the intake
some sounded like it was coming out through the exhaust
so,,
today was the first opportunity i had to do a compression test now that the build has a few miles on it.
i took readings on the motor cold. and with some wd40 sprayed up in the cylinders each.
i retested my low cylinder shown below with a very very hot motor and the results actually went down
thoughts?
i have a few but there are forums designed for that kind of language.
My son just took it back to VA minutes ago, he is happy as a 20yr old could be now he has his birdie back. I keep telling him im overall happy but i have to wonder if there is power missing due to some other issues.
Im thinking valves are not closing all the way because the seat work isnt mating up to the valves themselves just right.
maybe eventually the heads and valves will mate together and seat???? sound possible.
I told my son to take it somewhere and have a leak down test performed along with compression test after a few more hundred miles.
Either that or when he comes home again, we can retorque the head bolts *completely* and see if that helps.
i checked the lower bolts on the outside of the head on either side of cyl 5 and they were correctly torqued.
our orginal torque exceeded the book by an additional 5lbs. i was compensating for any yield the used bolts may have experienced.
perhaps i should have used new head bolts... dono yet.
cylinder / compression
1= 150
2=160
3=160
4=150
5=130 >> retest when hot = 118
6=150
7=150
8=150
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 06:08:23 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 06:08:23 PM
my machinist just told me he did cut both the intake and exhaust seats ,, said something about a "wider" 45deg angle.
he mentioned that doing this allows more head to valve contact for better heat disipation and overall longer life span.
i have to speak with him again about this to understand more.
however,,
he did say at this time he has no clue as to what would cause a cold compression reading to go down when taken again after the motor is hot.
he said that its possible that one lifter may not be functioning correctly associated to cylinder 5... sounds reasonable.
he mentioned that doing this allows more head to valve contact for better heat disipation and overall longer life span.
i have to speak with him again about this to understand more.
however,,
he did say at this time he has no clue as to what would cause a cold compression reading to go down when taken again after the motor is hot.
he said that its possible that one lifter may not be functioning correctly associated to cylinder 5... sounds reasonable.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 29, 2013, 08:14:17 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 29, 2013, 08:14:17 PM
Clearly @130 something is wrong! But how many times did you crank the engine to do the test?? Normally a compression test is useless as a LEAK DOWN is what should be dun. As far as a wider seat that means nothing as many cars use a combination 44-45* valve cut. So without a leak down that cylinder can not be determined to have an issue as with a valve or ring issue. You need leak down numbers not compression numbers.
Normally i use 30* valve jobs years ago as that flows better than 45* at the lower RPM BAND. But with 3 angle valve jobs and 5 angle valve jobs 30* cuts are not normally used. Also having a wider seat on the intake is MOOT. The Exhaust needs a wider seat to dissipate the heat of the exhaust valve to the head for cooling the hot exhaust valve. This is a simple explanation. Valve cutting is a science in it's entirety. Also did the machinist vacuum test the valve JOB???
Note to confirm a tight valve on position 5 loosen the rocker and then take a compression reading. If it corrects the issue the valve is to TIGHT!!
Normally i use 30* valve jobs years ago as that flows better than 45* at the lower RPM BAND. But with 3 angle valve jobs and 5 angle valve jobs 30* cuts are not normally used. Also having a wider seat on the intake is MOOT. The Exhaust needs a wider seat to dissipate the heat of the exhaust valve to the head for cooling the hot exhaust valve. This is a simple explanation. Valve cutting is a science in it's entirety. Also did the machinist vacuum test the valve JOB???
Note to confirm a tight valve on position 5 loosen the rocker and then take a compression reading. If it corrects the issue the valve is to TIGHT!!
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 10:28:03 PM
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2013, 10:28:03 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;420831
Clearly @130 something is wrong! But how many times did you crank the engine to do the test?? Normally a compression test is useless as a LEAK DOWN is what should be dun. As far as a wider seat that means nothing as many cars use a combination 44-45* valve cut. So without a leak down that cylinder can not be determined to have an issue as with a valve or ring issue. You need leak down numbers not compression numbers.
Normally i use 30* valve jobs years ago as that flows better than 45* at the lower RPM BAND. But with 3 angle valve jobs and 5 angle valve jobs 30* cuts are not normally used. Also having a wider seat on the intake is MOOT. The Exhaust needs a wider seat to dissipate the heat of the exhaust valve to the head for cooling the hot exhaust valve. This is a simple explanation. Valve cutting is a science in it's entirety. Also did the machinist vacuum test the valve JOB???
Note to confirm a tight valve on position 5 loosen the rocker and then take a compression reading. If it corrects the issue the valve is to TIGHT!!
, i didnt think of that.. should have seen if we could finagle the valve cover off the drivers side to shuck back the rockers a bit and check that.
thanks,, and noted next time mason comes home.
i did tell him to get a leak down test, my home made one is down.
in normally crank till the needle stops jerking,, and tops out just so you know.
i also do a compression test with no spark plugs in so it doesnt wear down the battery as quickly along with unplugging the TFI & coil input
This way the injectors wont dump fuel,, good idea eh?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 31, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 31, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
I had a local guy do a valve job on my Edelbrock heads a few years back because the guy I always used before that was over 8 hours away after I moved to Texas. After putting the heads back on I checked the compression and was having all kinds of erratic numbers. Called my buddy back home and on his advice sucked it up and bought a MAC leak down tester and found the problem...5 bent valves. Shipped the heads to my buddy back home and a couple of weeks later all the problems were gone. Lesson learned, not all machinists are created equal and some just outright suck.
Good luck with the compression issues but I think Tom is on to something with the rocker arm possibly being too tight. Hopefully the machinist did not overlook something with the valves but after all the BS you two have gone through with this build it would not surprise me one bit. I hope I am wrong and the rocker is just a bit on the tight side.
Darren
Good luck with the compression issues but I think Tom is on to something with the rocker arm possibly being too tight. Hopefully the machinist did not overlook something with the valves but after all the BS you two have gone through with this build it would not surprise me one bit. I hope I am wrong and the rocker is just a bit on the tight side.
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 31, 2013, 12:08:42 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 31, 2013, 12:08:42 PM
Do you have a vacuum gauge handy? If so you can hook it up to the engine and check for a leaking/sticking valve. See here: http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm
As reference the engine in my Thunderbird pulls down 17" of vacuum at idle, the stock HO in my Mark VII pulls down 18". The engine in your son's car should pull down between 17-18 or so, being that it has a stock HO cam.
BTW I see you got rid of the Ford blue paint on the Explorer intake I sold you. Looks good.
As reference the engine in my Thunderbird pulls down 17" of vacuum at idle, the stock HO in my Mark VII pulls down 18". The engine in your son's car should pull down between 17-18 or so, being that it has a stock HO cam.
BTW I see you got rid of the Ford blue paint on the Explorer intake I sold you. Looks good.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on September 01, 2013, 01:03:40 AM
Post by: jcassity on September 01, 2013, 01:03:40 AM
Yeah he painted it but it does look really good
The car isn't here but when it gets back with my boy I will do the test
The car isn't here but when it gets back with my boy I will do the test
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on September 01, 2013, 09:42:30 AM
Post by: jcassity on September 01, 2013, 09:42:30 AM
, son called and about croaked.
oil presure shot up to near 90% and the temp went up as well. first thought was instrument panel conflict but he said no, the engine was struggling.
he had to run it like that for about a minute before he could pull over. he stopped and restatted and problem solved.
sketchy spooky !
the machinest said the mains were very tight, just a little under .001.
thats why we are running 5w30 now,, maybe he can go thinner for a while.
runs fine thought! lol
what a pita
oil presure shot up to near 90% and the temp went up as well. first thought was instrument panel conflict but he said no, the engine was struggling.
he had to run it like that for about a minute before he could pull over. he stopped and restatted and problem solved.
sketchy spooky !
the machinest said the mains were very tight, just a little under .001.
thats why we are running 5w30 now,, maybe he can go thinner for a while.
runs fine thought! lol
what a pita
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 01, 2013, 07:14:57 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 01, 2013, 07:14:57 PM
Jay i did not want to worry you but those clearances are in spec but to tight for me. Normally i run .002 on the mains and rods. If you run those tight clearances the oil can not take the heat away from the journals. You need a certain amount of bleed off to remove the heat. Just saying!!
Try 0W20
Try 0W20
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 01, 2013, 08:19:25 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 01, 2013, 08:19:25 PM
Agreed. clearances are on par with modern OEM stuff, seals and gaskets are new, galleys are clean, pump is new; no reason NOT to run a 0w20 synthetic. Or even a 5w20 semi synthetic (like Motorcraft). I'd stay clear of conventional, but I'd put you in the 5w20 range (0w20 if it were me).
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: beast50 on September 01, 2013, 11:31:27 PM
Post by: beast50 on September 01, 2013, 11:31:27 PM
I would have that engine regone through by a reputable engine builder and give the guy who did the work the tab. I would not feel comfortable with it, all the trouble you have been having.
I was always told for break in oil and first oil change to use dino oil and not synthetic to help rings set properly. Any theory behind that?
I was always told for break in oil and first oil change to use dino oil and not synthetic to help rings set properly. Any theory behind that?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: beast50 on September 01, 2013, 11:34:22 PM
Post by: beast50 on September 01, 2013, 11:34:22 PM
Quote from: jcassity;420966
, son called and about croaked.
oil presure shot up to near 90% and the temp went up as well. first thought was instrument panel conflict but he said no, the engine was struggling.
he had to run it like that for about a minute before he could pull over. he stopped and restatted and problem solved.
sketchy spooky !
the machinest said the mains were very tight, just a little under .001.
thats why we are running 5w30 now,, maybe he can go thinner for a while.
runs fine thought! lol
what a pita
My gauges would do that and then drop back down on their own. I put aftermarket in to keep a better eye, along with stock gauges. Is your TFI breaking down causing it to start struggling after driving?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 01, 2013, 11:35:05 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 01, 2013, 11:35:05 PM
Quote from: beast50;421007
I was always told for break in oil and first oil change to use dino oil and not synthetic to help rings set properly. Any theory behind that?
That's BS. You working on out of date information.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on September 08, 2013, 08:40:34 PM
Post by: jcassity on September 08, 2013, 08:40:34 PM
updates on compression numbers
i was able to get some readings yesterday along with fuel presure which was fine.
seems things are changing to a little better, still has less than 500miles on it thus far.
im glad to see cylinder 5 doing better, but there still is a fairly wide spread on the numbers.,, cylinder 5 techincally still shows trouble state but lets give it a few more miles.
1 - 160
2- 160
3 - 170
4 - 160
5 - 150
6 - 165
7 - 168
8 - 170
i was able to get some readings yesterday along with fuel presure which was fine.
seems things are changing to a little better, still has less than 500miles on it thus far.
im glad to see cylinder 5 doing better, but there still is a fairly wide spread on the numbers.,, cylinder 5 techincally still shows trouble state but lets give it a few more miles.
1 - 160
2- 160
3 - 170
4 - 160
5 - 150
6 - 165
7 - 168
8 - 170
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 08, 2013, 10:07:53 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 08, 2013, 10:07:53 PM
Cyl 5 is coming around a bit but still LOW. It shows improvement as all the cylinders do with a new engine. That is normal. The engine is broken in by now with 500 on it so those numbers wont change to much from now on. Unless the valves were not ground properly. Time will tell. Once again a leak down is always better just saying. Other than that how does the engine run. You said it still has some issues. Thanks
1= 150
2=160
3=160
4=150
5=130 >> retest when hot = 118
6=150
7=150
8=150
1 - 160
2- 160
3 - 170
4 - 160
5 - 150
6 - 165
7 - 168
8 - 170
As expected the numbers do not pan out. One was higher before the 500 Miles and now some are higher. That is why a compression test is useless and not good to evaluate an engine. The numbers show that no question bout that. I never use a compression test for comparison or evaluation. It is to unstable a test and i have found it un-reliable
1= 150
2=160
3=160
4=150
5=130 >> retest when hot = 118
6=150
7=150
8=150
1 - 160
2- 160
3 - 170
4 - 160
5 - 150
6 - 165
7 - 168
8 - 170
As expected the numbers do not pan out. One was higher before the 500 Miles and now some are higher. That is why a compression test is useless and not good to evaluate an engine. The numbers show that no question bout that. I never use a compression test for comparison or evaluation. It is to unstable a test and i have found it un-reliable
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 08, 2013, 11:19:44 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 08, 2013, 11:19:44 PM
Have you stuck a vacuum gauge on it to see if it has a sticky valve or sealing issue?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 05:37:53 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 05:37:53 AM
A brand new engine or better said a rebuilt one with a sticky valve??? Not happening. As a guide fit to tight would show up almost immediately. I am assuming the machinist installed guides. Most times 99% of older heads need guides and inserts are the fix. Normally i do not use inserts or knurling. Inserts are good but normally on cast head i use OS valves and go from there. But a hung up valve i do not think so. If one or many of his guides needed inserts that means most likely the stems were questionable anyway. So new valves would have to be installed. If new valves had to be installed a set of OS ones would be the logical FIX. If a guide was to loose it would only get worse and that is easily identified. Using a Vacuum gauge is ok i guess but a little antiquated at best. But do it and see what happens. Better test the leak down that is the true test of a good sealing cylinder!!
Note normally a machinist will fit the guides LOOSE is my experience. It depends on the machines they have and how accurate they are. Being on the loose side is insurance for them so a guide seizure does not happen. Personally the engine in question is broken in and the numbers are the numbers. I do not think they will change much other than carbon build ETC. Also app 75% of valve heat is transferred from the seat and the other 25% is from the guide. So guides are very important. There fit is very critical at best. Also modern stem seals can be to tight and not allow sufficient amounts of oil to reach the stems. A lot of machinists can get hung up ion valve seals that are to efficient for a performance engine. One has to remember the guides need oil and some must pass by the seals. To much and the engine will smoke to little and the guides will seize up. Once again a subject that is complicated and is sometimes taken for granted. The build sheet should show the stem clearances and type of seals used. And also the type of guide used. There are several types of guides and all are not equal. Guide clearance is very evident when a PORSCHE engine is started or for that matter any high performance car you talk about. When started cold they smoke. Every performance vehicle like Porsche will smoke on start up from stem seal oil seeping in to the cylinders. To much and the cats will clog. To little and they may seize up. It is a delicate balance. Personally i never reuse a valve i always replace them. Reason being they will always have to much wear on them and that can play havoc on a new valve guide insert . Thanks
Note normally a machinist will fit the guides LOOSE is my experience. It depends on the machines they have and how accurate they are. Being on the loose side is insurance for them so a guide seizure does not happen. Personally the engine in question is broken in and the numbers are the numbers. I do not think they will change much other than carbon build ETC. Also app 75% of valve heat is transferred from the seat and the other 25% is from the guide. So guides are very important. There fit is very critical at best. Also modern stem seals can be to tight and not allow sufficient amounts of oil to reach the stems. A lot of machinists can get hung up ion valve seals that are to efficient for a performance engine. One has to remember the guides need oil and some must pass by the seals. To much and the engine will smoke to little and the guides will seize up. Once again a subject that is complicated and is sometimes taken for granted. The build sheet should show the stem clearances and type of seals used. And also the type of guide used. There are several types of guides and all are not equal. Guide clearance is very evident when a PORSCHE engine is started or for that matter any high performance car you talk about. When started cold they smoke. Every performance vehicle like Porsche will smoke on start up from stem seal oil seeping in to the cylinders. To much and the cats will clog. To little and they may seize up. It is a delicate balance. Personally i never reuse a valve i always replace them. Reason being they will always have to much wear on them and that can play havoc on a new valve guide insert . Thanks
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 09, 2013, 03:21:41 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 09, 2013, 03:21:41 PM
A vacuum gauge will tell him if he's got a valve hanging open or not sealing. It's possible either the rockers on #5 are miss-adjusted or the valve is not sealing right. That would show up on a vacuum gauge as a vibration of the needle. My guess though is possibly a not so good ring seal on #5. I doubt that the engine has a head gasket issue as there would be other signs of that.
A leak down test would be better but if he doesn't have the equipment a vacuum gauge will work in a pinch.
A leak down test would be better but if he doesn't have the equipment a vacuum gauge will work in a pinch.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 05:57:52 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 05:57:52 PM
The valves are POSITIVE STOP for adjustment. That should have been checked. But that cylinder is still low and that reflects on the MACHINIST. His machinist should have dun a vacuum test on the valve job. Or the rings in that cylinder still did not seat. What kind of rings were used???
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Clayton on September 09, 2013, 06:55:38 PM
Post by: Clayton on September 09, 2013, 06:55:38 PM
Could be somthing as dumb as a weak valve spring
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 08:10:50 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 08:10:50 PM
Doubt it as cranking compression is normally not effected by weak springs. Weak springs are normally a cause of lifter pump up at higher RPM. Turbo coupes are notorious for that. Once again the springs should have been replaced or at least checked.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on September 09, 2013, 09:16:03 PM
Post by: jcassity on September 09, 2013, 09:16:03 PM
ok, i reviewed the posts and ill combine my answers.
I thank you all for offering thoughts, it helps me fine tune how i go about finding out what is the deal with cyl 5 and perhaps other cylinders.
machinest did not do any assembly.
he did not do a presure test
he did not put the heads on the block to perform any leak down test.
he did insure my PTV was ok.
i assembled everything
the machinist did put in new valve springs which gave us about 105lbs seat presure.
the machinist did cut in new intake and exhaust sets .. for some odd reason,, not sure wy but he said he increased the cross sectional area of the 45deg angle to increase heat transfer.
The machinist did install new bronze guides on the intaake only i believe, but you can see them on the pictures i posted previous to this page,, way back on prob page 20(ish).
so i put everything together.
I did not know you could use a hand pump and pull a vac on a cylinder like that,,, if this is what you mean by using a vac gauge.
if you mean use the vac gauge at idle, and look for a jittery needle, then i stand corrected.
the car runs very well, has a slight miss which is *NOT* an injector or a spark plug
The miss we experience is on the passanger side and we swapped injectors and plugs which yields a miss still on the pass side.. ironically cyl 5 is a driver side so go figure.
Oddly enough the pass side is also higher compression.
again this is a minor miss that **********DOES**** come and go depending on the rpm.
the miss will go away if you simply add more gas.
I like the thougth about the guids and binding up the valve itself.
motor heats up and the guide swells a little and sorta binds up the valve...
what we are or were goign to do is dial in TDC cyl1 ,, then add air to this pot and watch the air needle drop and record the time.
we would wash rense and repeat all cylinders.
ill report back,, call me if i missed an answer i owed you but,, i certainly want to nail down this imbalance issue i see on compression.
by the way************* the motor has 563miles on it thus far.
thanks.
if someone can explain the "pull a vac" part and explain to this wv boy, id appreciate it.
I thank you all for offering thoughts, it helps me fine tune how i go about finding out what is the deal with cyl 5 and perhaps other cylinders.
machinest did not do any assembly.
he did not do a presure test
he did not put the heads on the block to perform any leak down test.
he did insure my PTV was ok.
i assembled everything
the machinist did put in new valve springs which gave us about 105lbs seat presure.
the machinist did cut in new intake and exhaust sets .. for some odd reason,, not sure wy but he said he increased the cross sectional area of the 45deg angle to increase heat transfer.
The machinist did install new bronze guides on the intaake only i believe, but you can see them on the pictures i posted previous to this page,, way back on prob page 20(ish).
so i put everything together.
I did not know you could use a hand pump and pull a vac on a cylinder like that,,, if this is what you mean by using a vac gauge.
if you mean use the vac gauge at idle, and look for a jittery needle, then i stand corrected.
the car runs very well, has a slight miss which is *NOT* an injector or a spark plug
The miss we experience is on the passanger side and we swapped injectors and plugs which yields a miss still on the pass side.. ironically cyl 5 is a driver side so go figure.
Oddly enough the pass side is also higher compression.
again this is a minor miss that **********DOES**** come and go depending on the rpm.
the miss will go away if you simply add more gas.
I like the thougth about the guids and binding up the valve itself.
motor heats up and the guide swells a little and sorta binds up the valve...
what we are or were goign to do is dial in TDC cyl1 ,, then add air to this pot and watch the air needle drop and record the time.
we would wash rense and repeat all cylinders.
ill report back,, call me if i missed an answer i owed you but,, i certainly want to nail down this imbalance issue i see on compression.
by the way************* the motor has 563miles on it thus far.
thanks.
if someone can explain the "pull a vac" part and explain to this wv boy, id appreciate it.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Bob on September 09, 2013, 09:59:27 PM
Post by: Bob on September 09, 2013, 09:59:27 PM
does the spark plug look normal in #5 like the others?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on September 09, 2013, 10:08:24 PM
Post by: jcassity on September 09, 2013, 10:08:24 PM
yes it does,, i looked at that on saturday when i drove over to va to help mason do some work on it.
i do have to say it appears the cylinders are burning fairly hot,, not sure if we have hot plugs installed or not,, cant tell by the motor craft numbers,, its easy on the auto lites to tell.
im putting money on something mechanical so mason is going to schedule a leak down test with someone this thus,, i told him to get his ass on here and chime in and take over this (his) thread...! lol.
i do have to say it appears the cylinders are burning fairly hot,, not sure if we have hot plugs installed or not,, cant tell by the motor craft numbers,, its easy on the auto lites to tell.
im putting money on something mechanical so mason is going to schedule a leak down test with someone this thus,, i told him to get his ass on here and chime in and take over this (his) thread...! lol.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 10:55:40 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 10:55:40 PM
Here is what you need to do a good valve job. I test every head. Nothing beats this test for sealing. Normally i grind the seats @45 1/2 * and the valve @45 This makes an interference fit and seals the valves as good as it gets.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 09, 2013, 11:01:47 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 09, 2013, 11:01:47 PM
Pull vacuum just means to check what vacuum reading, how many inches of vacuum your engine makes at idle. With the stock HO cam and GT40 heads/intake I figure it should make a steady 17 or 18 inches of vacuum at idle. For instance the stock HO in my Mark VII makes 18 inches of vacuum at idle, my Thunderbird makes 17 inches. Both of those readings are at a 700rpm hot idle in park. You can use a vacuum gauge to see if any internal problems are present with the engine. This is a handy guide with animations to explain different readings: http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm
As a FYI GT40/GT40P cylinder heads use Motorcraft AGSF32C spark plugs. That's what I was running in my Thunderbird when it had GT40P heads.
As a FYI GT40/GT40P cylinder heads use Motorcraft AGSF32C spark plugs. That's what I was running in my Thunderbird when it had GT40P heads.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 11:06:52 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 11:06:52 PM
This is what i am talking about, a vacuum testing bench like this i test every valve job i do this way my vacuum fuel pressure gauge has been in the back of my tool box for 30 YEARS. I basically never use it. Not in a very long time. If a valve job is vacuum tested that is all that is needed. A vacuum gauge has it,s uses but a new engine should not have any issues whatsoever. That is why you rebuild them !!! Below is a vacuum test bench every machinist should have!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kKNWSjAy9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kKNWSjAy9I
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 11:22:40 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 09, 2013, 11:22:40 PM
You can buy the plates and use your AC vacuum pump to check valve jobs and valve leak down. Get a thick plate of glass and some thick semi firm foam to set the head on and use your spark plug air adapter to apply vacuum. If it holds you are golden. But from your post you assembled the heads RIGHT? well did you check the guide clearance? You should have as when you do a head you have to custom fit each valve to the head to get the proper clearances. This is called select fitting. Well either way the engine is dun
http://www.goodson.com/Pistol-Grip-Vacuum-Tester
http://www.goodson.com/Pistol-Grip-Vacuum-Tester
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on September 10, 2013, 07:50:03 PM
Post by: jcassity on September 10, 2013, 07:50:03 PM
again tom,, did not assemble the heads..... you seem to skim over posts,
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on September 10, 2013, 07:52:29 PM
Post by: jcassity on September 10, 2013, 07:52:29 PM
can i pull a vac with a hand held vac gauge with a cylinder dialed to tdc both valves closed to detect a seal?
granted the end gap on the rings ould bleed the needle down but i could observe the delta between cylinders to arrive at a conclusion?
granted the end gap on the rings ould bleed the needle down but i could observe the delta between cylinders to arrive at a conclusion?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 10, 2013, 08:51:42 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 10, 2013, 08:51:42 PM
NOPE!! Leak down test. Sorry i thought you built the heads. My mistake.
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: jcassity on September 23, 2013, 05:44:53 PM
Post by: jcassity on September 23, 2013, 05:44:53 PM
Guys,
son came in for my birthday yesterday.
Today we were able to get leak down numbers.
i presurized the tester.. dialed in the adjustment to "zero" out the guage and the second guage usuall fell at 100lbs.
so upon connecting up the hose, sometimes we lost some air presure but anyway, that is the reason the psi numbers are a little different.. i think.
anyway.... in HO firing order
cyl 1 @ 86psi= 17% loss
cyl 3 @ 89psi= 18% loss
cyl 7 @ 82psi= 20% loss
cyl 2 @ 83psi= 18% loss
cyl 6 @ 84psi= 18% loss
cyl 5 @ 80psi= 42% loss (hearing air out the tail pipe
cyl 4 @ 89psi= 19% loss
cyl 8 @ 84psi= 18% loss
thoughts?
son came in for my birthday yesterday.
Today we were able to get leak down numbers.
i presurized the tester.. dialed in the adjustment to "zero" out the guage and the second guage usuall fell at 100lbs.
so upon connecting up the hose, sometimes we lost some air presure but anyway, that is the reason the psi numbers are a little different.. i think.
anyway.... in HO firing order
cyl 1 @ 86psi= 17% loss
cyl 3 @ 89psi= 18% loss
cyl 7 @ 82psi= 20% loss
cyl 2 @ 83psi= 18% loss
cyl 6 @ 84psi= 18% loss
cyl 5 @ 80psi= 42% loss (hearing air out the tail pipe
cyl 4 @ 89psi= 19% loss
cyl 8 @ 84psi= 18% loss
thoughts?
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 23, 2013, 07:22:24 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 23, 2013, 07:22:24 PM
Mine did the same thing after a "valve job" by a reputable machine shop. I kept the leak down tester hooked up to each cylinder and used a dead blow to tap the top of the valves with. On every one of the valves that leaked doing this changed the leak down numbers. I'm not saying yours is a product of bad valves but this would help point you in the right direction.
Darren
Darren
Title: 88 sport rebuild , need advice
Post by: wpblackfoxturbo on September 24, 2013, 07:26:07 PM
Post by: wpblackfoxturbo on September 24, 2013, 07:26:07 PM
I'm not the smartest but u can get good power with a 306 and I have read that u can get 400+ HP out of a 5.0ho bottom end using stock cam. Motor trend posted a 400+HP 5.0ho they got 400 HP using adjustable pushrods and rockers with a good set of heads they didn't bore or stroke motor out just rebuilt it just a thought thinking about resourcing it and tryn it myself