For the past two days, the Sport has a "shudder" when I accelerate. I can still get the car to speed, but it feels like there's a rapid miss (for lack of better terms). Maybe the TFI module? Any ideas?
open the hood at night and see if there's any sparks shorting against metal.. from the spark plug wires, just a though. Always what I try first with a miss.
No sparks. Getting ready to step out and re-check the distributor cap and rotor. They are new (about 2 months old) MSD pieces, but I'll see what they look like.
It giving any codes?
Haven't checked codes, gotta get a battery for my checker. The cap and rotor are fine. I am going to swap the TFI module when the rain stops.
Only on accel? Have you tried plug wires?
The plug wires are in great shape. I can hear the "shudder" at idle as well.
is it at all temps?
Doesn't mean one isn't still bad.
True.
Sounds like ignition. But also check the fuel pressure. Normally i stay away from aftermarket ignition stuff. Motorcraft all the way in my shop for the ford guys. Just saying. Also check the coil they do get weak from time to time. I had a customers Turbo coupe in the shop with a strange miss under boost. You got it the MSD coil was the issue!!!
Is your TFI remote mounted??? That does wonders and will let it live a bit longer. Also the tune is critical with TFI. If the tune is bad the TFI will OUT pr0nTO!!!
:burnout:
Every msd coil I have ran acrossed had issues.
The $20 autozone one I threw in my old 86 lasted over 100k miles without issue, but it was far from performance.
My buddies 89 2.3 stang had a bad miss and it was the msd coil, after we replaced the pip,tfi and a couple other things.
Yes, at idle and most notably at lower speeds. Once I'm up to speed, not so noticeable.
Tom, it's not remote mounted, it's on the distributor. I'm swapping the TFI later when the engine cools down. If that fixes it, GREAT !!! If not, it was under warranty and still didn't cost anything, and, rules that out.
It very well may be the coil. I hope not, but if it is, then the MSD will fit nicely into the garbage can. Like I stated above, I'll start with the module, then go from there. I don't have an extra coil. I had a couple and tossed them out a couple of months ago.
Run codes. See if its an intermittent pip signal, which will lead to the pip or tfi. Also run a cylinder ballance test to see if it could be a bad sark plug or injector. Quite a few things could cause it. Just run the codes withh a test light and a paper clip.
I've never ran a test like that. details..............
Id' say time for a plug reading... and maybe some wire swapping.
It very well may be time to swap them. They are two years old, and up until Saturday, all was well.
(http://oldfuelinjection.com/images/selftest01.gif)
Insert paperclip.
(http://oldfuelinjection.com/images/selftest04.gif)
Test light goes from sig out(*edited*) to negetive battery cable.
Turn on key, count codes just like you would a "code reader" it will light up the check engine light if installed on the dash, if it does, no need for a test light.
Here's some light reading on running cdes, and what they mean.
http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=2471.0
http://oldfuelinjection.com/?p=13
Save links to favorites, look totally pro with just a paperclip.
I just rea lized that I should have put sig out to ground for the test light. Sig rtn should be the sensor ground...
Still waiting vin.
I get an ice cold drink, recline the seat back, insert paper clip, turn key forwards to ream koeo and cm codes, you can cycle on and off several times if you miss one. Then I do a koer test and run 3 engine cylinder balance tests in a row. Then I bring my ice cold drink and pen and paper inside, sit at the computer and read definitions and see if any match my symptoms. If they do, you can test most sensors with just a multi meter to make sure they are in range, then replace/adjust what's broke.
You can do most of it in minutes without even getting dirty.
If you get multipul sensor codes, it can be a bad or open ground on sigrtn, or pins 20,40, or 60, or the wire by the negetive cable. I almost find troubleshooting fun now. I fought reading codes forever, now I just feel stuip for not doing it the first time.
The sbftech link shows you how to do a cylinder test, as well as having some video's to show codes. You should only have two digit codes.
O.K., I swapped the module, but got caught up right after that with family stuff. I'll grab a battery tomorrow and use my code checker (It has the book to decipher the codes), and see what turns up. Also, I'll give the car a test run in the morning on the way to the gym and have a report after that. I appreciate you guys and the help. Everyone has been so great here. I think I'll stick around.
I think you're a keeper. ;):bowdown: :rollin:
Fords have an issue when spark plug wires from consecutive cylinders (in the firing order) are run next to each other for any length causin an "inductive" current from one wire to the other causing a misfire. Since you said you did the coil recently, maybe you got a couple wires too close together. I forget which cylinders on the 302, if I find it I'll add it.
It's 7-8 on SO and 6-5 on HO. They need to be seperated on the wiring loom.
The wires are all laid out, and separated. The coil has been on for a year or so.
, I meant cap and rotor, just suggesting the simple things first.
I have them laid out pretty straight. I think it's something else.
Might be something you can't see. Try a different cap. If problem is still there, kill the spark to the cylinders one by one to isolate which cylinder it is. It will be the one where there is no change. Then, it will be the plug, wire, or injector on that cylinder. I agree with Tom. Most likely ignition. Is that dist a DUI? I have been curious about those.
The idle is still steady. Not a heavy miss.
Run the ccodes. If it sennsor related, it should have a code either stored in continous memory, or as an active code. If its a sparkplug/fuel injector/ compression problem, it should show up in a cylinder ballance test. If nothing comes up, then you start hitting general matinence things.
First step should always be codes though.
Not trying to be mean, but it is litterly a 5 minute thing.
Bad / old fuel?
New gas. My daily driver. As far as it being a 5 minute fix, I agree. It's the "figuring out what it is" part of it. Getting ready to go drive it to the gym and I'll see if the distributor module swap helped at all.
Coil was still under warranty (sweet !!!), so, I swapped it out. Still having the same issue. Going to run codes shortly, then go from there. After that, I'll pull and check the plugs.
Very possible i am going through this now as we speak.
I fill the tank every two weeks.
Then you fuel is most likely OK. Just a thought!!
Do a cylinder balance test with the EEC..
Just read the other pages after I posted lol... Yeah haystack has the right idea IMHO
Sorry. I guess I didnt know that was your DD.
Got busy in the back yard preparing to build a deck. Gotta get a 9 volt battery tomorrow for the code checker. Stay tuned.
Fixing the shudder, that would be a great b-day gift... would it not? Hoping you get it.
Can't work on it til Monday. My next day off. . Starting with the codes, then plugs if necessary. May swap the fuel pump just to see. I have a new one as back up.
I hope that before you resort to all the work in dropping the tank, you'll try something simpler. Like testing your wires. It would take less time to prove me wrong than to prove everybody else right.
I have a fuel pump access panel in the trunk. Takes 5 minutes to swap the pump.
VINNIE YOU CUT YOUR CAR UP~~~~~ SHAME ON YOU!!!! Just kidding. A quick fuel delivery check is all that is necessary. Volume Pressure ETC!!
An access panel... no kidding. That sounds like a good idea, I've got to drop my tank and replace it (broken baffles). After I repair the right strap mount (rotting off), I might see about an access panel myself.
It looks like there should have been one from the factory. There's a raised section in the trunk right over the sending unit.
Yep, I cut it, and felt good about it, and never looked back. Swapping a pump in less than 10 minutes, taking my time, with a full tank of gas, does not hurt my feelings (if it has to be done at all). With the panel installed to cover the hole, and the carpet in place, nobody would ever know. Tomorrow I'll be back out looking for the problem. Working all weekend. I got the 9 volt for the code checker, and that will be the first step of business tomorrow after the gym.
Going out as soon as the sun comes up. Then, I WILL figure the issue out TODAY !!!!
Still no codes. ran out of time today. Swapped the fuel pump and distributor (that took all of 20 minutes) reset the timing to 12....no change. I haven't had time to pull the headers so I can pull the plugs. Too much going on. It may be time to trade the old girl in on something newer. I seriously did talk to Gayle about it. I have little things going on all the time, and for the last few months, no time to be wrenching on little . Man, tired of little to deal with. 5 minute jobs to fix, but forever in diagnosing. No funds for it either. All funds are tied up in the house, new deck, school stuff for the youngest and on and on. Will I keep the car? Probably, but for the first REAL time ever, I'm having thoughts of letting her go. I gotta get some time to do some real thinking about it.
Vinnie, I think you may have a temperature, you should go lay down for a bit...
I'm just about at the end of my patience with the little BS that happens every 4 months. For the first time ever, I am feeling that I can let go, and still sleep at night.
Does this only happen at wot under load Vinny? Or is it rpm based?
Where is Tom? He may have an idea
Vac lines?
At idle, it's right about 950....just as always, smooth as it always is (for the TFS-1 cam). Once I push the gas, whether in neutral or in gear, the vibration/shudder/ whatever starts. It's not an earth shaking thing, but I can feel the stammer in the car.
The TPS and IAC were swapped a few minutes ago before I came in from watering the yard. No time to drive it yet and see where it stands after those parts were changed. I am trying to find time to pull the headers and check the plugs. The simplest parts to check first, but a job to get to.
The vacuum lines all checked good. I went through every one of them, twice.
I gave the harmonic balancer a look over from all angles I can see from, and the rubber is good, and it APPEARS to be good. It's less than two years old, and MAYBE 20,000 miles on it. Not that always means anything.
Swapped parts...
_New fuel pump
-New Coil
-New TFI module
-my extra distributor (known good, was on my E-303 engine)
-timing at 12
This wasn't happening Saturday, then all of the sudden it started Sunday (a week ago, not yesterday).
Tomorrow, one way or another, I'll run codes, and go from there. If time allows, I'll pull the plugs. Hopefully.
Did you run the cylinder balance test and pass?
I have honestly never heard of the balance test until this thread.....
Oh, and the test plug under the hood....there's only the bigger plug, not the smaller one. Strange, my last two Birds (both '88's as well) had the smaller plug also. This car...MIA. I can't find any broken wires, no sign it was ever there.
You should run it vinny, it will cut one cyl at a time and let you know if one of them is not contributing to the idle speed..
What do the plugs look like?
I hope to pull the plugs tomorrow. haven't had time to pull the headers to get to them yet.
How do I do the test?
Just so I'm clear is this just a vibration problem or you see decreased performance/ gas mileage too? maybe you can take a video of the car running and show us what it's doing.
Why you have to pull headers? Equal length shorties?
Gotta look in the EEC book on how to initiate the test, I think after the engine running test you have to do some silly shenanigans like turn the wheel 180*, tap the brake and bump the throttle.. If you google search you will find it
It's probably easier to swap the wires, than to pull the plugs, vinnie. Start easy, work up to the hard stuff like plug pulling, especially with P heads. Save yourself some frustration.
I found a EEC IV test running site that says that some international models have the STI wire (the single wire) in the large connector.
Do you have 4 wires in the connector instead of the usual 3?
Do you know where the harness came from?
International version
dang, i totally forgot about that but my 84coug had no single wire either,,, interesting, what site was this your talking about?
http://www.thorssell.net/hbook/eectest.html
could it be tps, Vinnie? not sure if that coyld cause the issue...
Vinnie calm down!!! You are acting just like when you had that short in your tail lights. It sounds like an ignition flame out. If you increase the RPM easily does it shutter??? If not rev the engine briskly from idle to 2500. If it shutters then it is most likely IGNITION. First check spark at the plugs and see if it is BLUE/ Not yellow. Then a balance test in my view would be a very good idea. That will tell you a lot. Also a compression test is mandatory. But it sounds like IGNITION. On a sudden gas pedal snap if it shutters it is most likely a lack of spark. Plugs wires ETC. I am sure you can fix it. Just sit back calmly and figure it out. I have faith in you BROTHER!! Your car is to dam nice to sell. If you sell it we wont have any sympathy for you when you post you made a mistake selling it. Be cool and figure it out. keep the faith VINNIE you can do it !!
Just throw this out as a "maybe" -- but have you checked the engine mounts. Thought here is as the engine torques, it may be moving slightly and causing a "shutter".
Motor mounts are good.
The vibration can be felt when I slowly push the gas pedal. I can easily rev it up high as well.
Maybe there's some kind of air or tiny bitty water leak in the lower intake. Just a thought.
I'm going to pull the plugs in a few minutes. Updates after that.
After this, I'm putting the Sport on probation. Any more , some kind of punishment will be invoked.
Tom, after I check the plugs and wires, I'll do the rev test and report in for you., Thanks a lot.
Vinnie,
Have you checked the MAF sensor and cleaned it?
Darren
Is this just an anyonance or is there decreased performance and gas milage?
MAYBE just MAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYBE one of your rockers is just a tad out of adjustment, causing the valve to hang open/closed for a split second longer than its sopposed to?
I checked the rockers yesterday. The plugs all look good. The wires look good.
My code checker sucks, so I'm going to try it with a volt meter. Never have tried this before, but I'll give it a shot.
Yes, some decreases performance, and the idle sucks worse today. I put the IAC and TPS back on that were originally on yesterday morning, no change.
New problem. I don't know how to check the codes. My car isn't equipped with the small plug with the single wire. Only the larger plug.
Coil? I know its not even remotly close to the same car but my buddy had a 97 cobra that had a studder traced it down to being a coil pack. maybe?
What does it mean that the wires look good? Visually, or with your ohm meter? And make sure that 7 and 8 are an inch apart. (That last bit came from the field service engineer running the advanced driveability class I'm in this week)
I have a brand new coil.
I think I may have it figured out.....stay tuned.
look around it might be tucked under something, is that your original harness?
Yes, original harness. No small plug anywhere. I can't even find a broken wire where it MIGHT have been.
The wires looked good in appearance from end to end..... Upon further inspection, when twisted, one has a slice in the boot at the plug. Swapping wires. Stand by for an update.
Did you read post 63?
STI is a R/BK wire
If the STI is in the large connector you may have to back it out of the connector to hook it to your code reader.
I'll check that shortly. New wires installed, no change.
O.K !!! Got the codes......at least I think I did....the numbers (beeps) went as follows...
9, 5, 9, 5, 1, 9, 5, 9, 5
According to the book I have, 95 is the fuel pump secondary circuit open.....What the "bleep" is that?
I think the "1' in the middle is the separator code.
Correct. It seperates the on demand codes from the memory codes.
What I think you have, and someone will correct me if I am wrong, is you have upgraded to mass air and the stock 87 cable harness does not have the fuel pump monitor wire to EEC pin 8.
Since the pump runs you can ignore the code.
Now run the KOER test. When it finishes outputting codes, momentarily go to WOT and it should start running the cylinder balance tests.
Give me a little more details on this "KOER" test please, and the cylinder balance test.
oh yes, and my car is an '88, not an '87.
Tomorrow, after work, I'll do the KOER test. I think I can do that. It has the instructions in the book. I'll update tomorrow after work. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The stock 88 doesn't have the fuel pump monitor wire either. It would have to have been added as part of the mass air upgrade.
You run the KOER (Key On Engine Running) the same way you ran KOEO. Instead of just turning the key on you start the car. The car should be warmed up first.
First you will get a 4, This is the engine ID code for 8 cylinders.
You may get a 1. Looks like the seperation code but here it's called the Dynamic Test code
Do a mometary wide open throttle.
It will output each code twice, just like KOEO.
After it finishes outputting codes do a momentary WOT to start the cylinder balance tests.
The test shuts off the spark and injector to each cylinder one at a time and measures how much it changes the RPM.
It will output code 10 for cyl 1, 20 for cyl 2, etc to 80 for cyl 8 or 90 for all ok.
It will then repeat the test at a different threshhold and give codes again.
Let it run until the engine shuts off.
How do I see the codes while I'm in the car doing the WOT thing? Also, what do you mean "until the engine shuts off".
The balance test takes awhile so you will have plenty of time, or you can operate the throttle under the hood. Or you can place your meter where you can see it through the windshield.
The test will turn off the engine when it is done.
I'll give it a shot right after work tomorrow. Hopefully something positive will come of it. May end up taking it to a shop for the first time ever.
Work? Aint nobody got time for dat!
could this be a fuel pressure problem? I never saw you say anything about checking the fuel pressure.
Vinnie,
I posted a few back and inquired if you checked the MAF sensor to see if it was dirty and if so did you clean it? My Coupe gave me all kinds of hell and it turned out this was all it was.
There is also a way to use the check engine light as your code reader:
http://www.corral.net/tech/maintenance/eecivtest.html#two
Here is the diagram for using an ohm meter or a test light:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy142/dbrune_83/eec2.gif)
Darren
Fuel pressure should be checked. But he replaced the PUMP!!!
Vinne,
Koer means Key On Engine Running
Koeo means Key On Engine Off
Cm means Continous Memory.
Everything here was explained in that sbftech like I posted on page 1.
It is a performance issue, Not running as it should.
It's an annoyance, and I haven't put enough miles on it to tell if it's effecting the mileage. It did pop twice yesterday through the tailpipe. I don't have a fuel pressure gauge, and Autozone's didn't work. There was a nice strong spray when I pushed the schrader valve, but that doesn't mean anything. I'll do the KOER test after work. Very strange issues..
If you have a dirty MAF, the PCM will go rich at idle and low rpm, because the crud on the hot wire will act as a heat sink, making the PCM think that more air is flowing over it than there is. Once you add some RPM's, however, the crud in the MAF acts as an insulator, causing the PCM to think that there is LESS airflow than there is. The MAF is the only component that can do this. It may not be the problem, but it should certainly be clean. MAF is the NUMBER ONE component in the fuel calculation. Also, you haven't mentioned anything about checking for unmetered air. Is the plumbing tight and leak free between the MAF and the TB? A speed density system wouldn't care, but a MAF system won't tolerate it. And in the search for unmetered air, you'll want to check for vacuum leaks and a stuck PCV valve.
Beyond that, have you tested the MAF as a component by unplugging it with the key off, then starting and driving it? If the MAF is the problem, your shudder would be gone with it disconnected. I should add that our driveability guy has a 5 gallon bucket of bad MAF's sitting under his bench, so it's not exactly uncommon.
KOER test done. Code 33 and 91.
33 being EGR issue (I don't have an EGR on my car)...never had an issue as far as performance or anything else from that for years.
91 states that it is an EGO sensor problem due to pressure or injectors out of balance.
Code 91 is lean hego sensor left side
http://oldfuelinjection.com/?p=48
Use this to referance codes. The books are generic, ford fuel injection uses codes for mustang and trucks.
Try uplugging your o2's and see if the miss goes away.
You can also do a cylinder ballance test, as described in the sbftech link on the first page. If its an injector problem, it should pick it up and id the cylinder for you so you only have to swap the one. How it works, it raises the cars idle to about 2000 rpm to keep the engine running, then it turns off and sprays each injector individially, noting the change in engine rpm's. You can run the test 3 times. Code 9 means pass. If you pass it the first a second time, your injectors are working correctly. The test is more strict each of the 3 times you can run it. Code 10 means 1st cylinder, 20 means 2 so on and so forth.
You can also try unplugging the O2's one at a time, this puts the eec in default. When only 1 is present, the eec will base the whole calculation off the remaining one. I ran my ex's 92 Taurus this way for years.
If you pass the ballance test, I would assume it to be an o2 issue. Pull them out and try cleaing them, and if that doesn't work, replace the sensor.
You can temporary bypass the o2's by un plugging them. This will cause the computer to go into a type of fail safe mode, and it will run the car bassed on standard tables and turn off the adaptive fuel strategy that is used to account for the way different engines run and wear on the engine. If the miss goes away with o2's unpluged, its probably just a bad o2 reading.
Ahh, your quick.
I'll try that test as well.....after I figure out how. I'll check out the SBFtech info. !!!!!!
Would bad O2 sensor (s) cause the car to have a backfire? The Sport has done it 4 random times, at lower rpms, like accelerating slowly from a stop.
Alrighty....status update.....
The balance test, if I did it right, shows an 8, which is cylinder 8. Plugged injector? Not sure.
On the "wiggle test"...I got a code 95....fuel pump secondary fuel circuit fault....no idea what that means.
Before the balance test, it went through codes, and gave me 4 of them....
94
44
33
21
That's where we are right now with the Sport's health issues. Now, what do we do?
After the cylinder balance test is done the engine will return to idle and the computer will display the code (9 is pass, any number 1-8 indicates a bad cylinder). The engine will not shut off. It will continue to run until it is turned off via the ignition, as normal.
Yeah, I got that. I got an "8" on the test. SOMETHING going on at the number 8 cylinder. I'll check the injector (looking for a replacement now) check the plug again, and hopefully it's not a valve. I doubt a valve is the problem.
Ready for any ideas at all............
On the KOEO test the code 95 is the wire you didn't run for the fuel pump monitor when you did the MAF swap (I know because I didn't either and that's the code mine throws during a KOEO test).
If it showed a code of 8 then yes you need to check cylinder 8 to see if the injector, plug, or plug wire is bad.
94 and 44 relate to the Thermactor system. If you don't have it ignore the code (my Thermactor system is gone and those are the only two codes my car throws during a KOER test).
21 means the ECT sensor is out of range. Was the car fully warmed up when you ran the test? If not that's why it threw the code. If the car was cold ignore it.
33 relates to the EGR not opening. Since you don;t have it ignore it.
If I were you I would start looking a cylinder #8 for a problem.
Try switching the #7 and #8 plug wires (keep the same firing order just switch the wires between the two not the firing order) and see if the problem moves to #7. If so you have a bad plug wire ;).
I just put brand new wires on yesterday with no change to the problem. I'll pull the injector Sometime this weekend. Gotta work 12's the next two days. .
Just pulled the number 8 plug. Nothing eventful there to see.
Theoretically, could a malfunctioning, not fully operational, mildly bad injector cause the car to pop from the exhaust?
Compression test in #8 while that plug is out,
I would think that the popping would be more valve train in nature than an injector...not what you wanted to hear i'm sure :(
Bad valve maybe? Hope not.
I'll try to run a compression test on it as soon as I can. Gotta get the gauge and fitting from Autozone when I have the time.
Vinnie,
There are screens in the injector and that could be plugged. I wonder if the injector was dribbling rather than spraying if it could easily puddle on a slow acceleration or deceleration and cause a backfire??? Maybe Tom and answer that one. Another way to check is just swap the injectors around on 7&8 and see if if follows. It would eliminate the injector if it did not and point to wiring or the salt a pepper shakers if your car has them like my Coupe does.
This is the place I sent my 24# injectors to and they cleaned them up really well and the car actually idled much better.
http://doctorinjector.net/
Darren
I have 4 kits coming for the injectors (4 sets for 4 V-8 engines). It has screens and all. I will swap the injectors around and see what happens. Stay tuned.
Swap injector 7 with 8 and rerun cyl balance test... See if it follows the injector..Also check the injector harness on 8 for the pulse
I'll swap the two injectors some time this weekend. No time for the next two days. !!!!!
I'll do that then run the balance test again. I have 3 injector filters with my extra o-rings and spacers. I'll swap that out as well......just in case.
Curious, where did you find your STI wire?
It was in the large plug, and not stand alone as I've always seen before.
Be sure that when you routed the new wires, you kept 7 and 8 a good distance apart. That means from the cap to the head.
Definitely going to echo compression test myself. That or of course you could rotate that cylinder to TDC and try to force compressed air through the spark plug hole, if you can seal it somehow, and listen for air hissing. But just do a compression test LOL. If you had an exhaust valve not closing all the way, it would probably backfire constantly/might have a "thwuh thwuh thwuhh" sound out of that side tailpipe, and of course leaking intake valve would cause intake popping. Lean/rich conditions can cause random backfiring. Screwed up TIMING can too, when you rev it way up in neutral anyhow. I know this because I just got the red car back on the road, and I had exaclty zero advance, balancer was set at TDC. And that's what it did lol. Not to mention absolutely no power at all.
The plug has surely been in the car, running right for too long, you probably won't notice any foul deposits on it that immediately be a smoking gun. Lou is right on the money with those codes, interesting one about the fuel pump monitor, learn something new every day!
I rechecked the number 8 plug. It's black, not that tannish color as the others.
Fouled with carbon, from running rich? Or un burnt oil?
I'm going to get a replacement plug, and swap it out. After that, swap the injector. One at a time.
Replace the plug, re-run Cylinder Balance. If it's blackened, You're looking at this: Overfueling, or lack of spark. You DID just replace the wires, so if there was a lack of spark, you could have nailed it with the wire change, but been left with a fouled plug which would cause if to seem like the problem hadn't been fixed.
Still, you can check it with a spark tester, you can get one at any parts store and they're cheap. You may even have one already. You want the one that snaps into the plug wire and clips to a ground. I think Tom would be able to tell you better what to set the tester to, but I'd say you're safe if you can get the spark to jump when its set to 22KV. Alternatively, you can still be overfueling #8, in which case, you'll still get a misfire, but that miss will follow the injector. I'd recommend moving the injector to the front of the bank and rerun Cylinder Balance, to see if the miss is now on #4. Possible causes are a clogged pintle, or a dead injector. You can also install a fuel pressure gauge and watch the ign off pressure as you ground the injector driver circuit for that injector. You'll be watching for it to drop slightly when you've got the driver circuit grounded and the feed circuit powered (just a quick tap to ground). If fuel pressure drops, you'll have verified that the injector works, at which point you'll move on to a noid light to determine if the injector is being commanded properly. First, with the key on, you'll connect your test light to ground and probe both wires in the injector connector. one should have power, the other should not. If one has power, switch your test light to battery positive and poke the other pin in the connector, watch for the light to flash while the engine is cranking. If it does, you've not only got injector power, but injector command. Once the injector AND the circuits have been verified, perform manual compression on the affected cylinder. I like to run compression with ALL the plugs out and the throttle open. Crank for 5 revolutions, with the first rev being the most important (at least to me).
So you start by verifying ignition, then fuel delivery, then fuel control, then base engine. If there's a problem in #8, this is how you'll find it.
OK clearly number 8 is your GUY. You just might have a bad plug or injector. The compression or leak down test will clear up a cylinder issue. You can use an old spark plug to check spark at that cylinder by gaping an old plug at .100 and grounding it somewhere on the block with the number 8 wire connected to it of course and start the engine. Look for a blue color spark and it should have a distinct snap. The compression will be the KEY. If it is within specks and close to other cylinders you are GOLDEN. If not you will have to call the neighborhood PIZZA store for your favorite pies and beverage. The head will have to come off. Hope not but not the end of the world. You just might have a bad plug or wire. Even though they are new they could be bad. IT HAPPENS.
ALSO check the cap for tracking on number 8 it just might have a crack in it. Look closely and check it carefully
I work another 12 hour shift today. I'll get some work done asap and report back. Keep your fingers crossed, and thanks.
I see, I've been away a little. If it's 1 cyl. comp. test will tell you something. Don't use them 24's I sent back to you cause 1 or 2 of them are f'd. It sounds to me like a bad injector. Need more info to help. I got tired of used inj.'s, had to many issues with them,like yours. Bought venom ones, good price,so far no complaints. Hopefully it will be that easy.
KAT i have actually had brand new injectors messed up. Anything is possible.
Hey Kitz, these are the injectors I have right now....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Summit-High-Flow-Fuel-Injector-240024-/330742017743?hash=item4d01c2aecf&item=330742017743&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr
:poke:Not meaning to be rude, but killing each cylinder one by one would have most likely pointed you to #8 dead miss or not. Now that you have replaced plug wires, clean that plug and swap it with #7. If the problem is gone, it was a plug wire. If it changes cylinders, it is the plug. If no change, it is either injector or cap. Not sayin it can't be a valve, but that is not likely. You don't have a whole ton of miles on those valves, and I would assume you have not had any overheating and have not been terrorizing Ardmore like a teenager that just got his license. Glad to see someone else is using Summit brand equipment. I don't believe they make their own stuff. I think they have a deal with other companies to make good quality stuff at a lower price.
Not to hijack, but Summit was real nice to me when I bought my x pipe and Flowmaster kit.
Vinnie, I have a set of 24's, from a Mark 8, pulled them myself. Let me know if you need one of them (or all 8)....
Beau, how much for them? Be gentle.
My injectors don't have the typical pintle caps. They are a different style. I'm HOPING that a screen on the top is plugged up. I have three replacement screens, and about 40 on the way.I will be posting whatever I can find out, or not find out. I'm still listening to all I can from you guys.
i ordered a brand new fuel tank for the Sport, the rebuild kits for 4 sets of injectors are in route, and once they get here, I'll install the new parts, then enjoy. It will be nice to have a new tank, not used. It was a very fair price, so, I pulled the trigger.
Did you track your problem down to injectors or tank?? Sorry, I forgot where you were at on this. LOL
Apparently there's rut in the bottom of the fuel tank. The tank is not original to my car. It's allowing some super fine "rust dust" through the system and into the injectors, so, they will be cleaned and new filters installed in them all once the kits arrive, new fuel filter...again, and new tank with 5 gallons of gas (to test everything before I add another 17 gallons). The tank was $94.00 shipped, so, I could pass it up. Seemed like a great price. It took money that I wanted to use for other things, but, the other things for the Sport don't really matter if she's not running good.
So what led you to the tank issue? Details man, details.
Darren
I saw the in the top of my fuel injectors, and figured it had to come from the tank. Pulled the pump, took a long look, and yep......rust in there.
OK you nailed it. We went through this a few years ago!!!!!! Your fuel in your area is spiked with to much alcohol. It has the potential of loosening rust in storage tanks and delivery trucks. You are going to have to find a different station that has pre-filters and or come up with a better filtering system in your car. That RED RUST STUFF is coming from area truckers underground tanks and or a combination of both. Someone down the line has a tank or tanks that are being deteriorated. You need a finer micron filter count on your car. We went through this a few years back when the state mandated alcohol blends. This sorry to say if it is what i think will take a couple of months or years to clear up. All stations are now required to have snorkels and all delivery trucks are to be stainless. Filters on the delivery side must be maintained by the vendors but who knows if they do. If in fact the rust is getting on the injector screens it means only one thing!!! Your filter is not fine enough to weed the out. Either way the in the tank is most likely pumped in and when you inspect you tank that will call the shots. If it is clean and not rusty you have just been introduced to the alcohol blend nightmare. good luck and find a filter with a greater micron count and if possible double it's size. Good luck !!!
NOTE YOUR ENTIRE FUEL SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE COMPLETELY FLUSHED OUT. The entire thing and dont not do it. That is in every line valve and regulator as well
Thanks Tom. I'll get all of this fixed and see what happens. Better fuel filtering? Hmmmmmm I wonder how I can do that. Good idea. I do know the tank itself has rust in it. I didn't notice that when I got it (used). The tank in route is brand new, in the box.
Vinny just some info. I know parts are expensive and i know you have kids. With that said i would suggest a SS tank if available. We use them on camaros and firebirds with good results. Or always keep the tank full as possible to prevent rust. I will research some filters for you. Hay i told you you could find the problem. Hay throw those FOR SALE SIGNS AWAY. And stop wining when you have an issue. You nailed it quite well. Now show us in a photo of you tearing up those FOR SALE SIGNS. You did a great job Vinnie. Then again i get flamed when my car acts up ALSO No one wants a busted car. YOU AINT FOOLIN NO BODY ON THIS FORUM WE know you love that car and it shows. Peace My Brother Great job Vinnie!!
Here we go my brother
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/filters.html
Tom, I appreciate you. I would never sell the car, but, it makes me feel better to threaten her at times to let her know I'm tired of the . LOL. I already ordered the tank. It's a brand new stock replacement. I think it's the rust from the tank, not an issue from the fuel. We have never had an issue with fuel before with any of our cars. I do think the tank is nastier than I know inside. I'll snap a pic of the inside when I pull it out. May cut the top off just to see. Of course I'd take precautions not to let it ignite.
I got you i know the feeling Vinnie. Keep the faith you know more than you give yourself credit for. Kiss the kids and fix the DAM CAR drive it show it off and enjoy the RIDE!!! And stop complaining. Even though i am the same DAM WAY !! Once again GOOD JOB
10 Micron filters are recommended for use as a post filter in EFI systems
40 Micron filters are recommended for use as a post filter in carbureted systems
100 Micron filters are recommended for use as a pre filter in carbureted and EFI systems
Thanks for that info. I'll do my best to put it to use. Should be done by Saturday afternoon.
Great keep us posted
I'll have it together Saturday with a detailed update and pics.
Vinnie: Believe were working on the same issue with my No-Start.
Just pulled Throttle Body, but haven't looked at injector screens yet.
Will post result once I examine them..
Debating right now whether I want to break tabs off injectors as plastic connector hard, old and brittle (see post this forum). Immersed connector in go-jo hoping to soften the plastic
so needs to sit for a few days.
Any better idea to soften plastic?
Talked to a "carb rebuilder - fuel specialist" and they indicated that Chysler used plastic tanks but Ford didn't.
Assuming you got a metal tank, I'm looking for a plastic one if I can find it.
Where did you get your tank?
I have a metal tank. They don't have plastic ones for our cars. I feel that with a steel tank, it'll be fine for years to come. I have a couple of tabs that broke from my injector plugs. No big deal, they still fit tight, and you can't see them much anyway unless you really are looking hard. You can always install new plugs.
My new tank just got here. Very nice, and new. It also came with new lock rings and the ring seals.
Taaaa-Daaaaah........................
One piece closer (well, two pieces, I installed the new vent seal).......
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc205/Vinnietbird/DSCF7026.jpg)
This is the Ebay listing for it....Great price, and it looks great.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130696520993?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
I'm still waiting on the injectors to get here, and my injector rebuild kits as well. If and when they arrive, I can get busy getting things done.
Vinnie:
Thanks for the Ebay link to the tank.
Pulled injectors -- haven't pulled screens yet -- but look clean from what I can see installed.
Taking injectors to shop tomorrow to have tested and cleaned.
Fuel tank.......check
injector rebuild kits..............check
replacement injectors..............hopefully soon.
I'm digging in tomorrow morning and swapping parts.
Everything but the replacement injectors are installed. I haven't started the car yet, but, I feel a replacement injector is still in order. I'll know soon.
good luck man.
All done. All that I can do today. I still think the injector is bad. Hopefully the replacements will show up soon. The member here said he was shipping them Thursday, so, that was two days ago. Hopefully they'll be here asap.
Did you ever swap injector 8 with another and rerun cylinder balance check and see if it follows the injector? and compression check in #8 passed? I thought thats where we all left off..
We did leave off there. After the first balance test, I ran out of time, then got distracted by the fuel tank. I replaced the screens in the injectors, and no change, BUT, I fouled up and didn't keep the injectors on the driver side in order, SO, another balance test is in order. I'll hopefully be able to tell if the issue is in the same place, or moved to either 5, 6, 0r the 7 position.
okay keep us posted.. I hope your compression test passes and its just an injector problem ;)
Waiting on gaskets, haven't had time to do the compression test and balance test, ordered a new harmonic balancer (mine looked like it has a slight wobble to it, although that wouldn't cause the rough acceleration). It's going to be replaced as soon as it gets here....if I have some time.