84 Cougar - 3.8L
Was going to update my original thread but thought a new title might serve forum better.
Problem:
Car won't retstart after short run (2-3 miles).
Troubleshooting Attempts:
Codes thrown: 48, 32, 13, 77
Vehicle restarts and runs great after sitting overnight.
Top radiator hose "extremely" hot (almost burnt touching rubber at either end), bottom also very hot.
Feels like no coolant in top hose.
No indication running hot from "idiot" light.
Repairs that seem to resolve problem.
1) Replaced thermostat and gasket
2) Found white like powder on drivers side exhaust manifold. Checked manifold bolts and many appeared loose. Retorqued bolts.
Thanks to all who offered suggestions.
How much work have you done to the car, and what is the history of it? Compression check?
77 doesn't mater, user error while running test.
32 evp sensor out of range. Sensor for egr, I would ignore this for now.
12 can't check rpm during test, low idle?
48 airflow too high at idle.
My guess, headgasket swap? Intake swap?
Your lower intake is leaking air, bypassing your throttle body. The air fuel mixture is off at idle, and the computer can't slow it down enough. Eventally, the computer will try to lower rpm's using the timing.
Your motor is way too hot. You have flow through the radiator? Pull your radiator cap off while cold, watch for flow through the radiator once you hit operating temps. I am guessing that your head gaskets might be bad. do a compression check.
Haystack:
Thanks for feedback. Hope your Not correct re: the head gasket -- again.
Had engine rebuilt about 4000 miles ago. Firm that did rebuild, had to deal with head second time because of leakage. Second attempt they put in a ceramic coolant sealer -- not my choice -- but had no say in matter.
I have a lot of confidence in the internal part of the rebuild.
Because I didn't have the time to pull engine, I also let them pull it, do rebuild, and put it back together (turn key).
Whether they did (engine pull and put back) themselves or farmed it out I have no knowledge.
I have found a lot of things that were not tightened and my error in not going over entire vehicle upon return as ran great, then issues showing up little by little.
After thermostat change and driver manifold bolts tightened to spec, vehcile again running great!
Before I drive further -- next warm weekend -- plan to going over all bolts "everywhere".
Also - per your suggestion -- Will do compression check and check for any gases in coolant.
After thermostat installed, checked coolant flow and all seems OK now. Top hose is hot -- but can be touched now after a 10 mile run, and bottom hose is warm.
The white powder on the exhaust manifold may be some of the ceramic coolant sealer that was used. Don't recall off hand if it was there after receiving vehicle back
but did find in in several other places and called to find out what was going on, and that was when I learned of the sealer being used in order to make sure head did not leak.
According to rebuild shop, using ceramic sealers is a common practice even at the factory (not sure if they were blowing smoke up my @@@, but took them at their word ???)
I may have got a 48 code because I ran vehicle at idle without air cleaner top on.
I have never heard of a ceramic sealant. I am not an engine builder though. I have heard of using an engine sealer, but its to fix vacum leakes around things like the crank and upper intake to the lifter valley. Never once hear of it used to seal the heads.
I have a feeling that this is going to lead to your overheateting problems as well. Highly recomend a compression check on all cylinders. If it is not the same, I would statrt tearing the engine apart to find out where and why they. Used "ceramic sealant". The v-6 has aluminium heads, and it is common for them to warp and crack. I am wondering if you have epoxy filling a crack in your heads, or if they are not machined flat. Overheating in certain parts of the head but not others could also warp them.
48 code will not be thrown because of a air cleaner being off. I am guessing vacuum leake, or intake leak. Get starting flluid or an un-lit propane torch run it along the top half of the motor and see if you can get the sar to idle higher, or rev up more.
I wish you the best of luck, start out with the compression check, and make sure it is within spec on all cylinders, or at least close. If it is we can move onto the next step.
I did a lot of research on this about two years ago when the engine was rebuilt -- after I found out about it. It is put in water, run through the engine coolant passages, then a heater is inserted into the water, which causes the ceramic to set up.
Purpose is to stop any "potential" head gasket leaks because of the aluminum heads and iron core expanding at different rates. You would think a gasket would be enough, but in some instances not.
Ceramic is really tough to get off, even wire brush (manual) takes a lot of effort to remove it (experience talking here).
No epoxy that I know of. My assumption is the heads were flat at time of rebuild. I know they were "supposedly" check twice as the first head gasket on the driver side was a rebuild suggested gasket, had some isssues
and I requested they go with a multi-layer (MLS -- Felpro) head gasket. That "supposedly" was put in, and must of still had issues, for when I went to pick up vehicle was informed they had used the ceramic.
Whether they just used the ceramic -- and no new multi-layer is unknown and impossible to determine ex-post. My guess they used the ceramic as "extra" insurance to get it past the rebuild warranty, which is where I'm at now.
----------------------
I also did a lot of research on ZDDP (posted this forum) because of all the flat tappet cam failures due to lack of ZDDP in the new engine oils. I'm using Rotunda since the rebuild, but "Shell" could change the mix at any time
since Federal law is trying to eliminate ZDDP all together. Had I know of all the 3.8L head issues as well as ZDDP cam problems, I would definitely gone with another engine. And they don't say hindsight is 20/20.
Will try and do a compression test this weekend if weather cooperates and post back this thread.
Pull that thing apart. I didn't realize it was dumped into your coolant. You definately do not need anything to seal coolant like that. That's what the blue tacky gasket sealer is. None of that is used on a head. It is going to be filling your coolant passages and blocking them, which is why its over heating. That stuff is used to limp a blown engine or radiator home. I would never use it on a car I planned to drive, unless it was already falling apart and I was ready to leave it where it broke.
Other people use it and have no problems, but I think they hurt more then they help.
I'll bet if you do a compression check your numbers are going to be all over the place. That is definately not standard practice to use.
No, not dumped into coolant. Water and ceramic put just inside engine coolant passages ( not radiator or heater core). Heater rod inserted to heat water and setup coolant. Water then flushed out, passages rinsed, radiator, heater core and sensor put in, and then 50/50 mixture of coolant added.
Will see if I can get someting for you to read and post it.
Go here and read PDF file on C-71 Circular (1st PDF in list). This will explain it better than I can.
http://www.irontite.com/manuals/index.php (http://"http://www.irontite.com/manuals/index.php")
So it works the exact same but will clog your radiator and isn't sensor safe? Sounds like something I want running through a brand new engine.
Am I reading this wrong then?
http://www.irontite.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1
Because there it says to dump it in a running engine just like a radiator stop leak. I think that shop screwed you. If the heads were flat, and the block was flat, then it should seal. It shouldn't need any type of sealant. Basically that machine shop didn't do their job right and dumped stop leak in to get you past the warranty. Tear it apart and see if things are screwed up. If it I, go after that shop. A compression check will tell you if there is something wrong or if the heads are sealed.
Needless to say, when I picked up the vehicle I wasn't happy about it. What was done was done, and it would of cost me more to hire an attorney, and then have the "experts" fight it out.
On the one had I have the Rebuild shop -- who does a lot of high end engines -- I'm talking engines for $600,000 boats (not mine as I don't own one and maybe could afford a rubber dingy)
and some other expert (s) who ever they would be debating the usage of sealers. Irontite was the product used, but I also had discussions with a lot of other people including some
master mechanics -- ex post. Bottom line was may help the 3.8L because of head gasket issues, but "most likely" would not hurt. I also checked the MSDS and this stuff is basically
"sodium silicate" as I recall. So if the shop followed directions and did as they told me (no radiator or heater core attached) then "hopefullly" OK.
As previously posted, I agree they probably got frustrated with fighting a head gasket leak, and took the easy road in order to get it out of warranty.
Chances you take when you DON"T do the work yourself. As you get older (me) you reach a point where you become more dependent on others. So what can one do.
I grew up with (knew) the shop owners wife, so assumed all would be well.
Agree, and hopefully can do this weekend.
Hey man good luck. Not trying to put you down in any way. Just don't want you to go into it blindfolded. Let us know compression numbers.
No offense taken as always appreciate your input. Just trying to give little history and also make point that as you age, you may not have the time, enthusiasm or strength for that matter, to do things yourself.
Ran into strength issue couple months ago when I pulled a transaxle and put in new ball joints (not the Merc). Pressing in new joints was a @#$%% -- ya I know "bigger wrench".
Also how many guys -- including yourself -- would appreciate someone standing over them while they do the job. So that leaves you with hiring someone (for whatever you can't or don't want to mess with)
and saying a "Hail Mary!!".
Yeah, I know what you mean. You buy my gas down there and we could tear it down. Bit of a drive though.
Thanks for the kind offer, but a lot to ask of you. Before I tear anything down, I want to do the propane and compression check.
I'm hoping it was the loose manifold bolts (keep your toes crossed).
Its only a half days drive or so. I litterly have nothing better to do. I really like driving, and I've never been to arizona.
But yeah, do your compression check and things before you get too far into it.
Haystack:
Got thinking about things -- possible head gasket, etc -- and decided to go back and start at the basics. So:
1) Pulled out my old Penske vacuum gauge and hooked it up. At warm and idle, was steady at 19 1/2 Hg. Open throttleed and dropped to zero (as it should), then back above 20, around 22 my guess, then dropped back and steady at 19 1/2 Hg.
Can't ask for better than that, and based on the vacuum test, I don't see "any" leakage problems. So I did NOT do a compression test. If you disagree let me know.
2) Next pulled the codes. Previously I had 48, 32, 13 and 77. Had cleared computer prior to tightening exhaust manifold, and since last cleared codes are now 42, 13, 77.
Both 48 and 42 point to pinpoint HC which seems to focus on Oxygen sensor -- with a nice list of all the other things that can be wrong (thank you Ford).
3) Since I had some extra time, I put a fuel pressure gauge on. After clearing pressure (to zero), I did key turn-- no start -- and pressure went to 34. Then started engine
and pressure jumped initially to 40 then settled right at 39. Again can't complain about that.
4) As previously post (previous observation) , vehicle starts better after thermostat and tightening exhaust manifold (driver side), but still has some difficulty restarting warm to hot.
This again was confirmed when vehicle was run prior to using vacuum gauge.
5) So, based on the above I'm leaning toward either ignition or some sensor.
Didn't have a chance to pull the plugs to look at them, nor get access to the passenger side exhaust manifold to see if those bolts are loose.
Will check the exhaust manifold bolts and look at the passenger plugs at the same time because of the hazzle on that side -- hopefully one day this week.
Don't know if I can PM you, but will try after this post.
Code #13 says rpm's were still either too high or too low. There is a procedure to setting your idle, however, it has been a while since I have screwed with a cfi 3.8. If I can stumble upon it easily, I'll let you know. On a sefi 5.0, you unplug the iac and turn the idle screw down until the idle is too low, then you plug it back in, and that's it.
#42 says right side o2's always rich, right side only. Right now I would be leaning twoards your right o2 sensor. On a 86 up v-8 you can pull the wire off the o2 and see if the problem goes away or not. Not sure if this works the same on a cfi or not.
Code #77, again, user error. Just means you didn't hit the gas to wot when the computer wanted you to.
If you would like to do some reading on fuel injection systems, read about sensors and how they work on http://www.oldfuelinjection.com . That is a ford specific site, and will help you out with codes and questions.
I would do the compression check just for peace of mind, and so you don't worry about it, but I don't think it is your issue now. I think you will be able to reset your idle speed, and replace your right o2 sensor, and you'll be right as rain.
I still remember trying to get to the back two spark plugs on my 87's and giving up. Not the easiest exhaust to get to. Let me know if there's anything else you need, or I can do.
On the 84, easiest way is to pull the alternator and alternator bracket to get to them. Still tough, but doable.
Getting to the oxygen sensor is another matter.
You can, but access and getting the plug apart will be a $%^&*.
I've got the shop manual, but most of time Ford wants a breakout box which I don't have. IMHO should be a "Rare Rare" occasion to have to install a breakout and usually other workarounds.
You seem to get more "definitive" info from the codes than the manual. What are you using??? Will take a look at the site and see what they offer.
http://www.oldfuelinjection.com/?p=13
Showes you how to run codes, what they mean. Even have pictures for most of the sensors and things. However, it revolves around a 5.0 eec-iv. I believe 84 3.8 to bee eec-iv, so most if not all imformation, should be the same. They use the same codes and everything.
Pulling your o2 sensor plug off will out your car in a closed loop. This will keep it from using o2 sensor, basically putting you computer into a fail safe mode. The o2's are basically only after the engine is hot, and the control you a/f mixture. Normally, I would say swap the o2's sides of the mmotor and see if the codes follow the sensor or not. With the cfi intak, it could be one of the cfi injectors. Not sure that an o2 will 100% fix your issue, but you gotta start somewhere.
Also, do not worry about the high idle until you figure out the o2 thing.
Just going to "try" and put an O2 into the passenger side. Both O2's have around 170,000 miles on them and for $20.00, plus all the hazzle to get to the passenger side, the $20.00 is worth it. Will also give me a chance to check the torque on the exhaust manifold on that side as well
pull the plugs and take a look see. Plugs only have about 4000 miles on them so should be fine, but easier now then have to go back.
I think I remember pull o2's being easier from underside, but I might have had the y-pipe pulled when I did it.
Replaced the TFI module?
Betting that will help with the starting issue...
Haystack:
Not sure if I can get a socket over the drivers side with the piping. If not, will look if can get from underside, but based on prior experience, unless I pull starter, chance of access pass side from underneath is nil.
EricCoolCats: Will consider if replacing the O2 doesn't work. Actually only had one TFI in this vehicle (around 19000). Did some research on this once, and when the TFI is manufactured a gel is placed over the electronics.
During manufacture a bubble was forming in the gel which was allowing more heat than allowed and blowing a resistor as I recall. Once they identified the problem, and redid the the gel method so no air bubbles, very few failures of TFI occur.
I know there is a lot said about distributor mounted TFI going bad versus those mounted on either the radiator / fender, or firewall with large heat sinks, but as said mine only replaced once.
Thermal grease used for heat syncs on computer processors is the best thing to use on the TFI.
I don't think O2 sensors have anything to do with starting. They come into play after it's running and goes into closed loop.
Tfi could make sense, but I would check anf fix all of the exiating codes I could first.
Here is a 41/42/91/92 code trouble shooting page
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,29771.0.html
Here is a no start thread. If we can narrow down why it is hard to start, there are only a few sensor in use at that point. Even if you don't need it, it is good to get you thinking, and check things when you run out of idea's.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,588.0.html
Is the overheating problem resolved?
Rereading the thread:
Your overheating with no pressure in the upper hose sounds like a clogged vent hole in the thermostat. If an air pocket is trapped at the thermostat it will never open.
If you still have the old thermostat, hold it up to a light. there should be a tiny speck of light somewhere around the edge of the disk that closes the valve.
If you think you have debris in the coolant you may want to consider running without a thermostat, since you live in AZ.
Or you could drill a small hole in the thermostat .
Heat is the enemy of the TFI.
Code 13: Not returning to slow idle fast enough.
I had to add an extra spring to the throttle to fix this problem on my 84 3.8.
It was not pressing hard enough on the ISC motor plunger to operate the ITC (Idle Tracking Switch).
Tom Renzo pointed out that my fix, with the tubing around the spring, may be a safety hazard if the tubing shrinks and binds up the spring.
Thanks all for input.
Prior to all the new posts (starting after Erics mention of the TFI), I decided to replace both oxygen sensors. I've got 170,000+ miles on them and figures may solve problem and if not at least they've been replaced and are out of the equation.
HOW TO O2 SENSOR -- 3.8L
The drivers side is a snap, had it out in 15 minutes. Pass side is another matter. Found the easiest way ( on the 3.8) is to disconnect the heat tub that runs beside the tranny filler tube. If you take off the bracket screw from underneath,
then loosen the clamp that attaches the heat pipe to the exhaust, you can use a piece wood and a hammer to knock the heat tube loose from the exhaust -- knock it toward the sky. Then go topside and undo the rubber connector -- again a piece of wood and a hammer
works great on the end of the rubber coupling to drive the rubber coupling off the heat tube. Once off and loose you can get your hand down with a O2 socket and place it over the sensor. Now the BIG problem is loosening the O2 sensor.
I finally used a 3/8 drive breaker bar with a short extension and approached engaging the O2 socket with the extension and breaker bar attached from the driver side by laying on top of the air cleaner. (NOTE: the O2 straight socket will NOT work as end hits
the tranny filler tube, You need short O2 offset socket (I used 22mm) which is similar to a crows foot if you've never seen one. After many attempts got it engaged so
there was some room to move the breaker bar toward the drivers side so the O2 could be removed. I then again use my old piece of wood and a hammer on top of the breaker bar handle to break the O2 loose.
Once broken loose, easy go from there. I initially was going to get my sensors from Autozone and Oreilly but both only had one. Orieilly also only had a universal sensor which did NOT have Fords connector, so it would be cut, solder and heat shrink.
Called our "professional" parts supplier in town, and they indicated theirs had the Ford connector. So ordered two which I pick up in the AM. Will post tomorrow as to where I'm at, after O2's installed.
Update:
Got the O2 sensors back in. Again the pass side was a &*^%$. {Think we all need to write a letter to Ford about working on a vehicle. I can't imagine an American engineer can't design these better so one has access to everything (sensors, etc.) that need to be replaced.
I know if every I find a manufacture that designs a car that can be worked on, I'm buying it!!
===============================
Ran vehicle about 8-10 miles. Had a hard time starting cold this time (took 3-4 tries) and finally caught. Vehicle had been sitting for about 2 days since last run. Next ran the vehicle for around 8-10 miles.
IMHO an improvement in vehicle response, both in pickup from dead start and while running. So new O2's made an improvement. Killed vehicle after run, and tried to restart. Started right up.
Then let soak for 30 minutes and took two tries to start. Still feel vehicle can do better starting. Will pull vehicle codes tomorrow to see if previous codes have cleared and if any new ones.
Based on code review will proceed according and take all recent posts into consideration.
==============================
I do have one question:
I've been trying to get some "macro" information on the EEC-IV. Most everything I find is to detailed -- lamda curves on sensors, etc.
Since the EEC-IV is a computer it polls various things (e.g. sensors) in some order.
During Open Loop certain sensor are not polled, while in closed loop all sensors may or may not be polled.
I recognize the assembly code may have some "jump" instructions to skip things, but my "guess" is there is a
normal order to the main EEC-IV loop and the sensors polled.
What I'm after is either:
1) A block diagram or
2) listing of closed versus open loop with the various sensor listed (identified) in the order in which they would normally be polled.
For example a list format it might look like:
Sorry on formatting as even using "quote" system eliminates spacing.
Hope someone can help.
something like this?
Simplified version of how the eec works
http://oldfuelinjection.com/?p=64
I think you would love to see a data logging or stand alone computer.
One thing you need to remember, the computer also uses adaptive stategy to deal with too. It will randomly throw values into equations just to see how it changes the engine. It gives he computer a better idea of what's working, and whhats not. Like your o2 sensors, the will always read lean or rich. There isn't an acceptable range necissarly.
Clear you codes, go for a drive, see what pops up.
After replacing both the O2, car runs like new. Started at first crank cold. Took it for a test drive, again started first crank. Also started with first crank after letting soaking (sitting) for 1/2 and 1 hour .
SO looks like O2's may have solved problem but still want to check codes.
Didn't get chance today to pull codes -- will try tomorrow if weather OK, supposed to drop tonight and about 10 degrees colder tomorrow.
The 1984 manual does a pretty good job on EEC-IV including each sensor.
As indicated in previous post, find info on NET either to detailed (down into lamda curves), or just checking of individual sensors.
What seems to be missing -- for me -- is there inter/intra relationship and dependency.
Don't have Probst book, would like to skim it to see if has what I'm after.
Thanks haystack, read it previously after you pointed me to the site.
Not exactly. Good example would be:
If you run the car (now hot) and EEC has cycled from Open Loop to Closed, and you shut off vehicle,
then restart while hot, does the EEC revert back to Open Loop, or because it is hot, does it immediately go to Closed Loop and
therefore the O2 is immediately active again.
Have looked at some of the Tweecer stuff on line, but never seen in actual operation.
Again the question is -- ya its great you can see the O2 cycling between lean and rich -- or maybe one not working at all (that would be great)
but if you have one that is weak, will it show up, and how do you tell? This would hold true for all sensors that don't hold a static voltage
when working.
Thanks to All who have provided their input to this thread.
Cars running mostly great but still has some idle issues. Replacing both O2 got rid of the 40 series codes.
Still getting Continuous codes of 13 and 14. 1984 manual does not show these (13 or 14) for continuous.
Search of net for later models show 13 as ISC or Air-by-Pass and 14 as PIP.
Codes confirm a little rough idle I was experiencing on test drive yesterday.
so will check both ISC, and Air-by-Pass and see what happens.
Haystack found Probst book through our state library system so hope to have it in about 3 weeks time.
Am interested in comparing it to the shop for any differences.
My 84 shop manual shows the continuous (memory) codes 13 and 14.
You don't have an air-bypass.
Revision to Shop Manual ISC adjustment:
Softtouch:
Was familiar with change to 7/32 drill bit, but the NOTE after that is of even more interest as I always push on the ISC plugger prior to inserting drill bit.
Agree. But do have a "Air Supply Control Value" which is part of the Thermactor system.
Would think "By Pass" and it are basically the same thing.
As with O2 sensors nothing in the Thermactor system has been replaced while the
"Idle Speed Control Motor" has not too long ago (say 20000).
Not sure what impact Thermactor system has on idle especially if some back pressure is
being created??
May go ahead an test it just for kicks if I can get to it. Thinking if I disconnect the
Thermactor heat tube from the exhaust, should be easy enough to check at least Outlet A
or B which ever is applicable.
============
Also found these codes explanations at TomCo
This says nothing about air-bypass but does point to ISC or Throttle Pos Sensor for Continuous (there "M" designation)
On EFI engines, the idle is controlled by the Idle Air Control (IAC). This is an air bypass around the throttle plate.
Rig up an extra spring on the throttle return and see if it cures the code 13.
Code 14:
1. Make sure you don't have any high voltage ignition wires touching or close to the TFI wires.
2. TFI
3. Hall effect emitter in the distributor
This is CFI
Saw this from your previous posts and like the spring idea.
I believe I have some close, but was going to deal with Code 13 first, but changing wire location mostly likely easy fix.
Cfi is still considered efi. I would roll my car off a cliff if soft touch told me to. Smart guy.
Pip or tfi codes would cause random miss's and hard starting, like eric pointed out earlier. Read that sbftech write up on tfi and pip no starts. Generally you should replace both at the same time, or at least I always have.
You high idle rwally isn't much of an issue, especially where the o2 codes went away.
One thing to consider, the 88 3.8's relocated the tfi to the radiator support area and put it on a giant heat sink. I think they did this for a reason.
"Some people" (myself for instance) consider them different, that is EFI being multiport injection. Just trying to clarify and no offense meant to Softtouch. Hope none taken.
Don't disagree. Always appreciate his input.
Agree. Already followed Softtouch's suggestion and relocated a plastic wire bundle wrapper for the TFI wires which had slipped
such that the TFI wires were resting on top of the spark plug wires. Haven't run vehicle yet to see if any improvement.
I believe I mentioned this in an earlier thread. Based on my past research, Ford eventually found out there were air bubble(s) in the gel material
when the TFI were manufactured. This caused more heat to migrate to the electronics than designed and resulted in premature failure.
Prior to that they were trying to "find why" TFI's were failing and starting moving them around to see if heat was an issue.
I have to improve my communication skills.
I was trying to point out that Code 13 references to air by-pass are talking about what the code means on EFI engines.
Checkout the pin point tests for code 13 on the 2.3L EFI TC in your shop manual.
This "vehicle" was almost a no start again after the normal 2 mile trip to grocery store. Same place and almost same parking spot it "almost" failed to start -- had me worried!!
Starter cranks very well, but since an AutoZone was across the street, after finally getting car stated, took it over and had battery, alternator, and starter checked.
As luck would have it while tester on , had difficulty starting -- cranks fine--, finally kicked and tester indicated failed starter.
Had it checked a second time, same issue starting, and again tester indicated failed starter.
So plan to pull the starter this AM, check wiring -- off chance (+) is loose -- and if not take starter down to local starter rebuilder to have the starter re-checked for failure.
Pulled Starter today an took down to starter rebuilder. Says NOT the starter. So Autozone tester which indicated "starter failure" is most likely wrong.
Starter Rebuilder said to have battery load tested which I will try and do tomorrow. Battery only two years old so we shall see.
Will double check starter cable AM to see if any possible issues with it.
To do a starter on this vehicle so for what its worth:
If it cranks it's not your starter, and you mentioned earlier you have a pip code.. have you investigated that at all? have to tested or replaced the TFI? A poor Profile Ignition Pickup or a TFI will cause this exact problem. One other thing that I ran into a few times, was the computer being stuck @ 30 degrees timing, regardless of spout status or RPM, it runs hot and wont re-start after it's hot, but will stay running as long as you need it to. So check your timing, not saying it's mechanically out of time, but check it, 10 to 12 degrees should be fine. The PIP needs to be check with a scope, if you or a buddy has one, check the PIP and spark input and spark output. If a scope is not available, and your timing is ok, try swapping out a PIP sensor and or TFI. In the case where the computer was stuck @ 30 degrees timing, I had to replace the computer, it was cooked, and threw a code 11 for what that's worth. If you find a scope and need to know what the wave pattern looks like, PM me.
Thanks all for input. As posted I found gel in my coolant. Per Prestone says a function of coolant being old. I kinda question this as coolant was changed about 2 years ago per my records. That said vehicle gets little usage and sits most of the time.
This is what I've done since replacing both O2 sensors.
1) Pulled battery and let vehicle sit for 24 hours.
2) Still has some hard start issue with vehicle warm (approx 2 mile run)
3) Tried to pull codes but got Nothing -- not even the 1 1 sequence.
4) Flushed cooling system with Preston flush (NOT the 10 minute one, but the 3-6 hour drive one) and drove the vehicle for several days.
This "appears" to have solved starting problem. I'm guessing that the gel was coating the ECT sensor, and consequently the ECT sensor
was not gettting a correct temperature reading. -- this goes back to one of Haystack posts to check the ECT.
5) Vehicle running and starting great. Bought a new cap and rotor so for the "h" of it am going to clean the PIP and put in a new
cap and rotor.
6) Put in new cap and rotor. NOT much/any difference I can tell. Did notice about 1 to 2 drops engine oil inside distributor (about 4 "Q" tips worth).
Dried and wiped out so no evidence with clean "Q" tip.
SO consider problem solved. Thanks again to everyone who posted.
Will post this thread if any other issues regarding warm start come up.