Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Loaded87IROC on April 07, 2011, 12:37:56 PM
Post by: Loaded87IROC on April 07, 2011, 12:37:56 PM
I recently upgraded my 86 Cougar to 87 TC front brakes and an 8.8 disc rear end. I test drove it with the original master cylinder and the brakes feel horrible. You have to push them almost to the floor to get it to stop and the pedal feels very soft. The brakes have been bled and all air appears to be out of the lines.
I am planning on upgrading the master cylinder but would like to know what everybody who has done similar brake upgrades is using. Is the 84/86 Crown Vic master cylinder referred to in the Cool Cats tech pages a direct swap? I am also hoping to swap to the TC proportioning valve at the same time.
Any info you can share is appreciated!
I am planning on upgrading the master cylinder but would like to know what everybody who has done similar brake upgrades is using. Is the 84/86 Crown Vic master cylinder referred to in the Cool Cats tech pages a direct swap? I am also hoping to swap to the TC proportioning valve at the same time.
Any info you can share is appreciated!
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Beau on April 07, 2011, 03:02:07 PM
Post by: Beau on April 07, 2011, 03:02:07 PM
I;ve heard the Cobra MC and gutting the stock prop valve or getting an aftermarket adjustable is a good way to go...in reality, I haven't put it into practice, so take my words with a grain of salt lol
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 08, 2011, 03:03:03 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 08, 2011, 03:03:03 PM
From what I can tell you want an MC with a 1" bore. I am pretty sure the 83-86's have a 2 port SAE threaded MC. The '85 Lincoln Towncar also uses a 2 port SAE threaded MC with a 1" bore which is about the best unit for most all brake upgrades. The 93 Cobra MC is the one to use if the brake fittings are metric and it also has a 1" bore. Hopefully I am correct on the 83-86 cars as the 93 Cobra unit is PRICEY!!!
You may just want to gut the front side of the stock proportioning valve and using a manual proportioning valve. This requires the cap or nut on the front of the stock PV to be removed and the spring and plunger are removed and discarded. Install the new cap (be sure to put the o-ring on it) and that part is down. Next you will need to find a location in the brake line going to the rear brakes from the stock PV and install the manual proportioning valve. It can be some work but you are now able to dial in the rear bias and it sure does make a difference. Here is a picture of the stock PV:
Here is the manual proportioning valve:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-260-8419/
Here is the plug you will need to replace the one on the original combination valve:
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=49_145&products_id=1411
Darren
You may just want to gut the front side of the stock proportioning valve and using a manual proportioning valve. This requires the cap or nut on the front of the stock PV to be removed and the spring and plunger are removed and discarded. Install the new cap (be sure to put the o-ring on it) and that part is down. Next you will need to find a location in the brake line going to the rear brakes from the stock PV and install the manual proportioning valve. It can be some work but you are now able to dial in the rear bias and it sure does make a difference. Here is a picture of the stock PV:
Here is the manual proportioning valve:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-260-8419/
Here is the plug you will need to replace the one on the original combination valve:
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=49_145&products_id=1411
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: thewestie on April 08, 2011, 04:41:08 PM
Post by: thewestie on April 08, 2011, 04:41:08 PM
I went with a 87 Mustang booster and master with the mustang PV and it has a soft pedal. But big but here (lol He said big but) I had a hard time getting fluid at the rears when I bleed the setup I got a re-maned MC and I think it was junk out of the box? But If I had the doe Id go with the cobra MC I'm gonna try to warranty the one I got and if it still suck Ill come back here and see what you did?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Loaded87IROC on April 08, 2011, 04:48:36 PM
Post by: Loaded87IROC on April 08, 2011, 04:48:36 PM
Thanks for the info guys! The 86 does use the old cast iron type, so I probably can't use the newer plastic style without some replumbing, which I would like to avoid. The 85 Town Car unit mentioned by Aerocoupe is only $15 (remanned) at Autozone, so I might as well give it a try. I'll have to use the stock TC proportioning valve right now, as I can't afford an aftermarket one. Hopefully it works well enough.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: thewestie on April 08, 2011, 04:51:47 PM
Post by: thewestie on April 08, 2011, 04:51:47 PM
Good luck
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: V8Demon on April 08, 2011, 07:48:14 PM
Post by: V8Demon on April 08, 2011, 07:48:14 PM
Quote from: Loaded87IROC;357527
Thanks for the info guys! The 86 does use the old cast iron type, so I probably can't use the newer plastic style without some replumbing, which I would like to avoid. The 85 Town Car unit mentioned by Aerocoupe is only $15 (remanned) at Autozone, so I might as well give it a try. I'll have to use the stock TC proportioning valve right now, as I can't afford an aftermarket one. Hopefully it works well enough.
Maximum Motorsports sells adapter kits..... http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=49_140
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 09, 2011, 01:00:05 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 09, 2011, 01:00:05 AM
I would think that the stock TC PV will be fine. The only thing I am not sure about is how different the boost by the Teeves system will compare to that of the stock T-Bird vacuum booster and Lincoln MC. If you feel that the pedal is hard then the next step would be to use the 93 Cobra booster.
Darren
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: mcb82gt on December 07, 2011, 11:03:46 AM
Post by: mcb82gt on December 07, 2011, 11:03:46 AM
Quote from: Loaded87IROC;357527
Thanks for the info guys! The 86 does use the old cast iron type, so I probably can't use the newer plastic style without some replumbing, which I would like to avoid. The 85 Town Car unit mentioned by Aerocoupe is only $15 (remanned) at Autozone, so I might as well give it a try. I'll have to use the stock TC proportioning valve right now, as I can't afford an aftermarket one. Hopefully it works well enough.
Any update? I am in the middle of this also.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 07, 2011, 03:30:08 PM
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 07, 2011, 03:30:08 PM
I used a cobra m/c and actually found the pedal too hard. I've heard of people using 95/6 v6 mustang units as well
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Loaded87IROC on December 07, 2011, 08:22:32 PM
Post by: Loaded87IROC on December 07, 2011, 08:22:32 PM
I haven't done anything about the brakes. I bled them again very thoroughly and the brake pedal feels much better now. I am still using the original MC and proportioning valve. Braking is good although I am sure it could be improved. I don't drive aggressively but have had to make a couple of sudden stops and didn't have a problem. I still plan to swap the MC and prop valve but it will probably be a few months.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on December 07, 2011, 08:40:50 PM
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on December 07, 2011, 08:40:50 PM
I didn't go to disc in the rear, but did the bigger brake upgrade using 88 mustang spindle/rotor and upgraded to 73mm calipers. I had a 84 TC in the yard and used the MC from it as well as the guts from the 88 mustang PV and the booster. So far so good. The beauty of the TC MC is that it's a straight bolt on.
EDIT: I just realized that TC can mean Turbo Coupe OR Town Car....I was referring to Town Car. Sorry for the confusion.
EDIT: I just realized that TC can mean Turbo Coupe OR Town Car....I was referring to Town Car. Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on December 07, 2011, 09:53:17 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on December 07, 2011, 09:53:17 PM
Aero
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on December 09, 2011, 09:00:00 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on December 09, 2011, 09:00:00 PM
What everyone needs to realize is that the 85 Lincoln MC is a direct bolt in. All of the threads are SAE and not metric like the 94-95 Mustang MC. I have the 94-95 MC on both my cars and had to build brake lines to make them work. I also used the 94-95 vacuum boosters in both cars. I wish I would have used the 93 Cobra vacuum booster as it would have been a more direct bolt in. Please realize that I have full Cobra spec brakes on both cars so what I am using booster wise is for that setup as well as gutting the PV side of the stock valve. I use an external adjustable PV so that I can tune the rear brakes to the front brakes. Even a change in brake pad compounds will benefit from bedding the new pads even if the rotors are seasoned (read used) and then readjusting the PV to compensate for the different brake pads.
There is no one MC, Booster, PV setting that works for every setup.
Darren
There is no one MC, Booster, PV setting that works for every setup.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: thewestie on December 09, 2011, 09:22:51 PM
Post by: thewestie on December 09, 2011, 09:22:51 PM
I have changed my setup since my last post here and upgraded to the 93 cobra master and gt booster. The fittings were different but I was able to use bubble to flair adapters. I'm still running T.C stock brakes with a gutted stock PV with an adjustable wilwood pv. The pedal is firm real firm, I like it I'm 6'5'and 325 lbs and don't have a problem applying the needed pressure.I have almost every thing for the 5 lug and cobra brake upgrade. I am told that with the upgrade I may get a little softer pedal
I guess due to the dual piston caliper. If I get a soft pedal I will try the 93 cobra booster for the ease of swapping to the same holes.
I guess due to the dual piston caliper. If I get a soft pedal I will try the 93 cobra booster for the ease of swapping to the same holes.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on December 09, 2011, 10:12:30 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on December 09, 2011, 10:12:30 PM
Th
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: thewestie on December 09, 2011, 10:38:26 PM
Post by: thewestie on December 09, 2011, 10:38:26 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;375137
The difference in fittings is no big deal. A flaring tool a hand full of fittings and a few feet of copper ferus line and presto it fits. Remember the smaller the masters bore the easier or less pressure you need to apply the brakes.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on December 10, 2011, 03:22:44 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on December 10, 2011, 03:22:44 PM
No t(
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: thewestie on December 10, 2011, 04:14:41 PM
Post by: thewestie on December 10, 2011, 04:14:41 PM
I'm sold Ive replaced the rear brake line three times due to rot on the plow truck. Next time its Copper ferrous for me Thanks
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Haystack on December 10, 2011, 05:53:57 PM
Post by: Haystack on December 10, 2011, 05:53:57 PM
The svo/lincoln mc is the same as the 80's crown vic. In 87 the mc swapped to plastic resivor and two lines for non-tc. The 83-86 cars used a dual ressivoir like the 80's crown vic and svo.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 11, 2011, 01:43:30 PM
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 11, 2011, 01:43:30 PM
I just used some of that nickel-copper stuff on my Dakota, after blowing the rear brake line out when trying to stop to avoid hitting a dump truck that pulled out of a side road while i was approaching at ~60MPH and towing a trailer with an old Honda ATV on it. I hate doing brake lines, so whenever I do one I only want to do it once, and that copper/nickel line is the cat's ass. It costs twice as much as steel line, but since steel line is cheap anyway, even double the price is still cheap. And besides, brakes are kind of important :hick:
For the record, I missed the dump truck, and I have newfound respect for the strength of ratchet straps. How that ATV didn't break them and come flying into the arse of my truck is beyond me...
For the record, I missed the dump truck, and I have newfound respect for the strength of ratchet straps. How that ATV didn't break them and come flying into the arse of my truck is beyond me...
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: MAYLONE01 on January 02, 2012, 09:06:13 PM
Post by: MAYLONE01 on January 02, 2012, 09:06:13 PM
some might disagree with me but i finally did on my 88 turbo coupe.use a master cly off a crown vic with a check valve on it.make sure that the rear line out of the master goes to the rear brakes and the front lines to the front brakes.and it had a adj prop valve on it but i doesn't need one if you have the check valve on your master cly.it took me four months to finally figure this out.but my brakes work just fine now.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 03, 2012, 06:31:19 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 03, 2012, 06:31:19 AM
[qu
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Haystack on January 03, 2012, 07:07:35 AM
Post by: Haystack on January 03, 2012, 07:07:35 AM
I am going to guess on the vacuum line going to the booster.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 03, 2012, 12:54:15 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 03, 2012, 12:54:15 PM
Ye
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: bigbada1 on January 03, 2012, 02:21:33 PM
Post by: bigbada1 on January 03, 2012, 02:21:33 PM
Ok so let me get this straight in my 88tc I have stock disk's with a stang booster and an svo master. The pedal feel is very hard and it takes quite a bit of leg power to stop and the brakes will not lock up. Do I need a smaller master?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: thewestie on January 03, 2012, 10:48:34 PM
Post by: thewestie on January 03, 2012, 10:48:34 PM
A smaller bore will give you a lighter pedal, I'm using a 93 cobra master and a 87 gt booster with a gutted tc prop and wilwood adjustable prop with stock T.C brakes. I have a very firm pedal. When I do the Cobra brakes I might need to upgrade to the cobra booster.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on January 04, 2012, 10:27:42 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on January 04, 2012, 10:27:42 PM
PSI = pounds per square inch. A smaller diameter piston in the MC will give you a higher pressure with less effort but it moves less fluid which is fine if you don't need to move a lot of fluid.
On the 83 I had the SVO MC, stock booster, SVO 73mm front calipers on the 11" rotors, the Stainless Steel Disc Brake kit for the Fox Mustang on the back, gutted stock proportion valve, and a Wilwood inline proportioning valve. The brakes SUCKED bad. The pedal effort was very high and the car did not stop for shiznit. The whole system was completely mismatched. A larger booster would have helped (1993 Mustang Cobra unit) or a smaller bore MC (85 Lincoln Towncar) would have helped.
Now on the Coupe I had a 95 GT MC, 95 GT booster, 95 GT front spindle setup with the stock GT rotors, 99 GT PBR calipers on the front, the stock 95 GT brakes in the rear, gutted stock proportioning valve, and a Willwood inline proportioning valve. The car stopped on a dime and it was a huge improvement over the stock Fox junk. When I upgraded to the Cobra brakes on the Coupe (front and back) it went from stopping to almost knocking the wind out of you from the seat belt crushing your chest. Both setups had the Hawk HP pads which is about the least aggressive pad I like to run.
Once I got the Coupe squared up the Bird got the same brake setup but I have not had it on the road to test out. My guess is it will be adequate with the 351W and the additional weight of the car.
Fore reference (information from http://home.comcast.net/~mjbobbitt/mustang/page1.html):
'84-86 SVO - (SAE Threads) 1 1/8" bore, old style aluminum reservoir unit. no low fluid sensor. This is the same as the 84-90 Lincoln Mark 7. The difference is usually the SVO is aluminum, and the Lincoln can be a cast iron unit. The aluminum is what you want to keep the weight down.
'85 Towncar - (SAE Threads) 1" bore, old style aluminum reservoir unit, no low fluid sensor.
'93 Cobra - (metric threads) 1.00" bore
'94-95 GT/V6 - (metric threads) 1 1/16" bore, stock plug in for the low fluid sensor
'94-98 V6 - (metric threads) 1 1/16" bore, stock plug in for the low fluid sensor
'94-95 Cobra - (metric threads) 15/16" bore, stock plug in for low fluid sensor. Ports are reversed thread sizes from 87-95 LX/V6/GT
'99 V6 - (metric threads) 1.000" and 1.006" bore. Can be converted to work for the low fluid sensor on the Fox3 cars
96+ V8 Units - These are hydroboosted and the mounted is vertically vs horizontal required for a vacuum booster. They will NOT work for our converstions unless you swap in the entire system.
Darren
On the 83 I had the SVO MC, stock booster, SVO 73mm front calipers on the 11" rotors, the Stainless Steel Disc Brake kit for the Fox Mustang on the back, gutted stock proportion valve, and a Wilwood inline proportioning valve. The brakes SUCKED bad. The pedal effort was very high and the car did not stop for shiznit. The whole system was completely mismatched. A larger booster would have helped (1993 Mustang Cobra unit) or a smaller bore MC (85 Lincoln Towncar) would have helped.
Now on the Coupe I had a 95 GT MC, 95 GT booster, 95 GT front spindle setup with the stock GT rotors, 99 GT PBR calipers on the front, the stock 95 GT brakes in the rear, gutted stock proportioning valve, and a Willwood inline proportioning valve. The car stopped on a dime and it was a huge improvement over the stock Fox junk. When I upgraded to the Cobra brakes on the Coupe (front and back) it went from stopping to almost knocking the wind out of you from the seat belt crushing your chest. Both setups had the Hawk HP pads which is about the least aggressive pad I like to run.
Once I got the Coupe squared up the Bird got the same brake setup but I have not had it on the road to test out. My guess is it will be adequate with the 351W and the additional weight of the car.
Fore reference (information from http://home.comcast.net/~mjbobbitt/mustang/page1.html):
'84-86 SVO - (SAE Threads) 1 1/8" bore, old style aluminum reservoir unit. no low fluid sensor. This is the same as the 84-90 Lincoln Mark 7. The difference is usually the SVO is aluminum, and the Lincoln can be a cast iron unit. The aluminum is what you want to keep the weight down.
'85 Towncar - (SAE Threads) 1" bore, old style aluminum reservoir unit, no low fluid sensor.
'93 Cobra - (metric threads) 1.00" bore
'94-95 GT/V6 - (metric threads) 1 1/16" bore, stock plug in for the low fluid sensor
'94-98 V6 - (metric threads) 1 1/16" bore, stock plug in for the low fluid sensor
'94-95 Cobra - (metric threads) 15/16" bore, stock plug in for low fluid sensor. Ports are reversed thread sizes from 87-95 LX/V6/GT
'99 V6 - (metric threads) 1.000" and 1.006" bore. Can be converted to work for the low fluid sensor on the Fox3 cars
96+ V8 Units - These are hydroboosted and the mounted is vertically vs horizontal required for a vacuum booster. They will NOT work for our converstions unless you swap in the entire system.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on February 14, 2012, 06:54:31 PM
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on February 14, 2012, 06:54:31 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;377025
PSI = pounds per square inch. A smaller diameter piston in the MC will give you a higher pressure with less effort but it moves less fluid which is fine if you don't need to move a lot of fluid.
On the 83 I had the SVO MC, stock booster, SVO 73mm front calipers on the 11" rotors, the Stainless Steel Disc Brake kit for the Fox Mustang on the back, gutted stock proportion valve, and a Wilwood inline proportioning valve. The brakes SUCKED bad. The pedal effort was very high and the car did not stop for shiznit. The whole system was completely mismatched. A larger booster would have helped (1993 Mustang Cobra unit) or a smaller bore MC (85 Lincoln Towncar) would have helped.
Now on the Coupe I had a 95 GT MC, 95 GT booster, 95 GT front spindle setup with the stock GT rotors, 99 GT PBR calipers on the front, the stock 95 GT brakes in the rear, gutted stock proportioning valve, and a Willwood inline proportioning valve. The car stopped on a dime and it was a huge improvement over the stock Fox junk. When I upgraded to the Cobra brakes on the Coupe (front and back) it went from stopping to almost knocking the wind out of you from the seat belt crushing your chest. Both setups had the Hawk HP pads which is about the least aggressive pad I like to run.
Once I got the Coupe squared up the Bird got the same brake setup but I have not had it on the road to test out. My guess is it will be adequate with the 351W and the additional weight of the car.
The 93 Cobra MC has a 1" bore where the 94-95 GT MC has a 15/16" bore just for reference.
Darren
Are you sure 94-95 MC's have 15/16" bores Darren? I thought they had 1 1/16" bores, whereas the Cobra MC's have 1" bores. Did you mistype, or was I wrong thinking they had bigger bores?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on February 15, 2012, 03:26:25 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on February 15, 2012, 03:26:25 PM
Good catch! I got them backwards. I tried to correct it on my iPhone yesterday but I could not log in for some reason. Anyhow, I have edited my post above with the correct information and some additional information.
Darren
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on February 15, 2012, 03:51:21 PM
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on February 15, 2012, 03:51:21 PM
Out of curiosity Darren, did you swap in your 94/95 Mustang MC & Booster and drive your car for a while before swapping in SN95 Cobra spec brakes at the wheels, or did you swap everything at the same time? Your set up is what I'm going to put on the Red-Winged Blackbird. I already installed a 94/95 Stang MC and a 93 Cobra Booster. I won't have the funds for swapping the SN95 Cobra spec brake components at the wheels until this summer though. I knew the brake pedal wouldn't feel the way I wanted it to until I had installed the SN95 brake parts at the wheels, so I wasn't surprised to find out the car is hard to stop right now. It takes a fair amount of pedal pressure to stop it. I just wanted to compare notes with you to see if you went through the same weak brake thing (from running an SN95 MC on a car with small Fox brakes), or if you did it the right way and swapped everything all at the same time to have all SN95 brake parts?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on February 15, 2012, 04:22:46 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on February 15, 2012, 04:22:46 PM
On my '93 Mustang I originally installed 93 Mustang GT brakes on the front as it was a four cylinder car. Several years later I swapped in the full 95 GT braking system minus the combination valve (brass piece below the MC that houses the shuttle valve and proportioning valve) and ABS. MC, Booster, all the stock lines between the MC, combination valve, and ABS, front spindles and brakes, rear axles and brakes. I also installed SS braided lines from the hard lines on the car to the calipers front and back and gutted the stock proportioning valve and installed a Wilwood manual proportioning valve between the combination valve and the rear brakes. So the braking was excellent from the beginning on that car. I swapped the front cobra brakes only and ran those for over a year before I swapped out the rears and it stopped way better but I did have to adjust the Wilwood a little bit. When I swapped in the rear Cobra brakes I had to adjust the Wilwood again and the stopping power was not much better but I expected that. The larger rears hold up better on the track due to the vented design and they look a ton better behind the larger wheels.
The '83 went from the stock rolling gear to the '86 SVO MC with the stock booster, SVO 73mm front calipers on 11" rotors with the GT spindles, Stainless Steel Brake Corp rear 10" disc brake conversion (swapped in a Fox Mustang 8.8 rear), and never touched the combination valve. The car stopped like shiznit to say it nicely. I was completely uneducated on brakes at this point in my life and what a waste of time and money. The stock GT setup on my '93 stopped better than this mess. I went from this straight to a 95 Mustang GT booster and MC, SN95 spindles and Cobra brakes up front, & Cobra brakes in the rear. The rear was a bit of an adventure as I had bought the 17X9 Bullitt wheels with the correct offset for the Fox width rear. I ended up getting the brackets for the Cobra brakes on Fox width axles from North Race Cars (http://www.northracecars.com/Brakes.html). The only problem with this is I cannot run ABS as there is no room in the rear for the exciter ring on the axles or the ABS sensor. I am not expecting to drive the car much so I am not as concerned as I was with the '93 as it was my daily driver at the time I put the ABS in it. The ABS is also outstanding on a track as you can just hammer the brakes without lockup which allows you to go deeper into the turns.
Hope this helps.
Darren
The '83 went from the stock rolling gear to the '86 SVO MC with the stock booster, SVO 73mm front calipers on 11" rotors with the GT spindles, Stainless Steel Brake Corp rear 10" disc brake conversion (swapped in a Fox Mustang 8.8 rear), and never touched the combination valve. The car stopped like shiznit to say it nicely. I was completely uneducated on brakes at this point in my life and what a waste of time and money. The stock GT setup on my '93 stopped better than this mess. I went from this straight to a 95 Mustang GT booster and MC, SN95 spindles and Cobra brakes up front, & Cobra brakes in the rear. The rear was a bit of an adventure as I had bought the 17X9 Bullitt wheels with the correct offset for the Fox width rear. I ended up getting the brackets for the Cobra brakes on Fox width axles from North Race Cars (http://www.northracecars.com/Brakes.html). The only problem with this is I cannot run ABS as there is no room in the rear for the exciter ring on the axles or the ABS sensor. I am not expecting to drive the car much so I am not as concerned as I was with the '93 as it was my daily driver at the time I put the ABS in it. The ABS is also outstanding on a track as you can just hammer the brakes without lockup which allows you to go deeper into the turns.
Hope this helps.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on February 16, 2012, 09:27:36 PM
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on February 16, 2012, 09:27:36 PM
Yep. That clears it up for me. Thanks. I was wondering how you went about setting those cars up. :)
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Loaded87IROC on April 30, 2013, 01:45:18 PM
Post by: Loaded87IROC on April 30, 2013, 01:45:18 PM
A little over two years after I started this thread, I finally bought the Town Car master cylinder! Hopefully it doesn't take me two more years to install it, lol.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on May 20, 2013, 05:37:00 PM
Post by: Driverguy on May 20, 2013, 05:37:00 PM
Im redoing my brakes while i have my engine out. On top of doing an 11 inch rotor upgrade, and switching all the lines to stainless, i was reading on the cool cats page about swapping the m/c and booster for ones out of a 95 mustang, the m/c having a 1 1/16 bore. Is it worth it to do so, or should i just keep the stock booster and get another 1 inch bore m/c, stock to my car?
also, why did the m/c from a svt cobra have a smaller bore than the gt??
also, why did the m/c from a svt cobra have a smaller bore than the gt??
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 20, 2013, 06:04:31 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 20, 2013, 06:04:31 PM
If you are not upgrading to the larger diameter brakes found in the SN95 Mustangs and converting to rear disc brakes then I would just install the same MC that came in the 87-88 TC's or an MC that has the same bore diameter. This will keep the system balanced.
The smaller the diameter the piston is the higher the pressure will be. If you have a brake system with an MC that has an 1-1/8" bore and it produces 1,000 psig of pressure then the same system with a 1" bore MC will exert 1,266 psig. This is based on the principle of psig which is pounds per square inch. As the area gets smaller and all other parameters are held constant the pressure will increase.
With all of that said I would say the engineers decided they needed higher clamping forces on the Cobra's calipers to effectively stop the car the way they wanted it to stop.
Anyhow, make sure your booster is good and install the appropriate MC.
Darren
The smaller the diameter the piston is the higher the pressure will be. If you have a brake system with an MC that has an 1-1/8" bore and it produces 1,000 psig of pressure then the same system with a 1" bore MC will exert 1,266 psig. This is based on the principle of psig which is pounds per square inch. As the area gets smaller and all other parameters are held constant the pressure will increase.
With all of that said I would say the engineers decided they needed higher clamping forces on the Cobra's calipers to effectively stop the car the way they wanted it to stop.
Anyhow, make sure your booster is good and install the appropriate MC.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 20, 2013, 07:20:36 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 20, 2013, 07:20:36 PM
The 87-88 TC has an integrated ABS electric system. Going to a 1 1/6 cylinder will make that pedal hard as hell and very hard to stop. Very little travel though.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on May 20, 2013, 07:55:29 PM
Post by: Driverguy on May 20, 2013, 07:55:29 PM
ok...well i AM switching to rear discs, so i guess ill use a stock 1 inch bore, and have to figure out how to swap the tc prop valve in....why is it only the front right brake, and rear go though the prop valve, not the front left?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 20, 2013, 08:43:05 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 20, 2013, 08:43:05 PM
Tom,
Duly noted and that is what I get for assuming.
Driverguy,
Okay, now that you are converting over to rear discs you need to swap over to a 93 Cobra booster and I believe a 85 Lincoln Towncar MC if the fittings on your current MC are SAE. From there you need to gut the proportioning valve side of the combination valve and install a manual style proportioning valve like a Wilwood. Anyhow that would be my approach and you would be set up if you wanted to go to the SN95 style brakes at a later date.
Darren
Duly noted and that is what I get for assuming.
Driverguy,
Okay, now that you are converting over to rear discs you need to swap over to a 93 Cobra booster and I believe a 85 Lincoln Towncar MC if the fittings on your current MC are SAE. From there you need to gut the proportioning valve side of the combination valve and install a manual style proportioning valve like a Wilwood. Anyhow that would be my approach and you would be set up if you wanted to go to the SN95 style brakes at a later date.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on May 20, 2013, 08:51:30 PM
Post by: Driverguy on May 20, 2013, 08:51:30 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;415653
Tom,
Duly noted and that is what I get for assuming.
Driverguy,
Okay, now that you are converting over to rear discs you need to swap over to a 93 Cobra booster and I believe a 85 Lincoln Towncar MC if the fittings on your current MC are SAE. From there you need to gut the proportioning valve side of the combination valve and install a manual style proportioning valve like a Wilwood. Anyhow that would be my approach and you would be set up if you wanted to go to the SN95 style brakes at a later date.
Darren
I thought it was supposed to be a 1995 booster?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaz-54-73150/overview/make/ford/model/mustang/year/1995
that one....according to summit and rockauto, thats the only one for a 95 mustang, covers the cobra and the gt
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 20, 2013, 09:05:35 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 20, 2013, 09:05:35 PM
OK first thing is the Valve goes in the rear brake system ONLY. What i do is this I use a 7/8 - 1" cylinder for good pedal feel and replace the rear line with 3/16 all the way back and remove all the 1/4" line. (this is optional and the stock TC lines are 1/4 all the way back to the calipers) I also use a trailer brake fitting on the front lines to consolidate the lines to a single line and less complication. You need not use the balance valve because it is useless in my view and takes up space. The fittings are of no concern because the lines have to be changed any way. ISO bubble is much better than inverted flair. And Copper FERRUS is the line of my choice. I do not even use STAINLESS any more as it seals rather shiznitty and there is no advantage to using it. Unless all the fittings are new they have a nasty habit of leaking.
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/004-48_zps31c58be9-1_zps4115a21d.jpg) (http://s740.photobucket.com/user/proguns/media/004-48_zps31c58be9-1_zps4115a21d.jpg.html)
Here is a neat mounting bracket i made for the valve and trashed the balance valve and stock per-portioning valve
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/003-39.jpg) (http://s740.photobucket.com/user/proguns/media/003-39.jpg.html)
Sometimes you need both ISO and inverted flair on the same line. This line i made is for a C4 to C5 conversion. There is no trailer fitting in ISO. So i needed to make a different line set.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/null_zps2cfbddc1.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/tfalconier/media/null_zps2cfbddc1.jpg.html)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/null_zpse0a3ca4a.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/tfalconier/media/null_zpse0a3ca4a.jpg.html)
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/004-48_zps31c58be9-1_zps4115a21d.jpg) (http://s740.photobucket.com/user/proguns/media/004-48_zps31c58be9-1_zps4115a21d.jpg.html)
Here is a neat mounting bracket i made for the valve and trashed the balance valve and stock per-portioning valve
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/003-39.jpg) (http://s740.photobucket.com/user/proguns/media/003-39.jpg.html)
Sometimes you need both ISO and inverted flair on the same line. This line i made is for a C4 to C5 conversion. There is no trailer fitting in ISO. So i needed to make a different line set.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/null_zps2cfbddc1.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/tfalconier/media/null_zps2cfbddc1.jpg.html)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/null_zpse0a3ca4a.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/tfalconier/media/null_zpse0a3ca4a.jpg.html)
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on May 20, 2013, 10:01:29 PM
Post by: Driverguy on May 20, 2013, 10:01:29 PM
I don't understand 95% of what he was talking about there....
So, i guess ill get this brake booster http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaz-54-73150/overview/make/ford/model/mustang/year/1995 off a 95 mustang, and does it have to be the crown vic m/c? cool cats site said the crown vic replaces the 84-86 style m/c, and a 94/95 m/c was to replace the 87-88 type?
So, i guess ill get this brake booster http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaz-54-73150/overview/make/ford/model/mustang/year/1995 off a 95 mustang, and does it have to be the crown vic m/c? cool cats site said the crown vic replaces the 84-86 style m/c, and a 94/95 m/c was to replace the 87-88 type?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 21, 2013, 05:25:07 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 21, 2013, 05:25:07 AM
Ok
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Chuck W on May 21, 2013, 12:49:21 PM
Post by: Chuck W on May 21, 2013, 12:49:21 PM
Quote from: Driverguy;415669
I don't understand 95% of what he was talking about there....
So, i guess ill get this brake booster http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaz-54-73150/overview/make/ford/model/mustang/year/1995 off a 95 mustang, and does it have to be the crown vic m/c? cool cats site said the crown vic replaces the 84-86 style m/c, and a 94/95 m/c was to replace the 87-88 type?
If your car has the AL M/C with the plastic reservoir on top, use the 95 Mustang one. If it's the solid cast piece with the sheet-metal cover, use the Crown Vic one. 15/16" to 1" bore would be sufficient. You may, or may not, have to fiddle with fittings, depending on how you run things.
If you have the engine out and want to replace the booster, use the one you just listed, for the 95 Mustang.
The only thing the prop valve is for is for the rear brakes.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 21, 2013, 02:36:50 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 21, 2013, 02:36:50 PM
Thank you Tom for the better explanation and thank you Chuck for the knowledge on when to know what MC to use. I was not sure if the 87-88 cars had metric or SAE threaded lines but I was pretty sure the 83-86 cars have SAE. Your way of looking at it is much simpler.
I do disagree with the 95 booster option over the 93 Cobra booster. Effectively they provide the same amount of boost but the Cobra unit will minimize the modifications in slotting the holes on the fire wall (if at all) to install it versus the 94-95 booster. I know this for fact as I have installed both and the Cobra unit was much easier to install and has the same pedal effort as the car with the 95 GT booster. Both cars have the exact same brake setup as well.
Darren
I do disagree with the 95 booster option over the 93 Cobra booster. Effectively they provide the same amount of boost but the Cobra unit will minimize the modifications in slotting the holes on the fire wall (if at all) to install it versus the 94-95 booster. I know this for fact as I have installed both and the Cobra unit was much easier to install and has the same pedal effort as the car with the 95 GT booster. Both cars have the exact same brake setup as well.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on May 21, 2013, 04:31:31 PM
Post by: Driverguy on May 21, 2013, 04:31:31 PM
oh okay, that makes sense now. I guess i could just lose the stock prop unit, and use the wilwood one then, dial it in until the brakes feel good, that's what I gather? seems its be easier to do that than take apart the stock one and put in turbo coupe innards. And if the booster from 93 and 95 are the same but with different mounting points, i may as well use the 93 to save some trouble. Thanks for the info.
P.S - since im running new brake lines, do i NEED to keep the old prop valve, or can i just eliminate it and use the new one?
P.S - since im running new brake lines, do i NEED to keep the old prop valve, or can i just eliminate it and use the new one?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 21, 2013, 05:03:24 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 21, 2013, 05:03:24 PM
If you have not, go to page 1 of this thread and read post #3 as I think that will explain to you the process of deleting the stock proportioning valve and what has to be done to install the manual proportioning valve. That is the cleanest way to do it. You want to keep the shuttle valve portion of the stock combination valve in case you have a line failure.
Darren
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on May 21, 2013, 05:14:14 PM
Post by: Driverguy on May 21, 2013, 05:14:14 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;415726
If you have not, go to page 1 of this thread and read post #3 as I think that will explain to you the process of deleting the stock proportioning valve and what has to be done to install the manual proportioning valve. That is the cleanest way to do it. You want to keep the shuttle valve portion of the stock combination valve in case you have a line failure.
Darren
yeah i seen your post earlier about capping it off and gutting it, I could do that, but i just didn't know what the purpose of having git there on the front right brakes, if it wasn't doing anything anymore. would the shuttle valve close off if the line blows, to keep all the fluid from draining out or something?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 21, 2013, 05:28:53 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 21, 2013, 05:28:53 PM
Just
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 21, 2013, 06:12:57 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 21, 2013, 06:12:57 PM
Aero
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 21, 2013, 06:22:11 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 21, 2013, 06:22:11 PM
Not understanding something is no excuse to eliminate it. Here is a pretty good thread on this very subject on the Corral:
http://forums.corral.net/forums/general-mustang-tech/1097502-shuttle-valve.html
Darren
http://forums.corral.net/forums/general-mustang-tech/1097502-shuttle-valve.html
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on May 21, 2013, 06:22:27 PM
Post by: Driverguy on May 21, 2013, 06:22:27 PM
yeah exactly Tom, up until 48 hours ago i thought it was just a block of aluminum to keep the lines from vibrating lol. It'd be a lot cleaner and easier for me to toss it, and hook up the manual valve. I'm redoing all the lines with some stainless anyway so its not like I have to mock up some makeshift connectors.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on May 21, 2013, 08:28:39 PM
Post by: Driverguy on May 21, 2013, 08:28:39 PM
so its basically an argument of whether you want a clean engine bay, or a safety feature in the event that your front right brake line blows...this is an embarrassing noob question, but, what is the purpose of the prop valve? what would happen if the rear brake lines were just solid to the M/C like the front lines?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 21, 2013, 09:49:24 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 21, 2013, 09:49:24 PM
No
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on May 21, 2013, 10:34:29 PM
Post by: Driverguy on May 21, 2013, 10:34:29 PM
well if that thing only lights a light, ill toss it...i don't think the lights on the dash work anyway lol. And i wasn't going to stainless hard lines, I was going to get braided stainless hoses, not to try and boost performance, but just for the fact that I cant stand things rusting and rotting.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Chuck W on May 21, 2013, 10:42:38 PM
Post by: Chuck W on May 21, 2013, 10:42:38 PM
All the prop valve does is restrict the flow to the rear brakes. The stock prop blocks are metered to the stock balance of the car. You start changing parts, it throws things off. Even a change in suspension can affect the way the braking system works.
The goal is to get as much braking out of the rear brakes as you can, without them locking up before the fronts do. (If you don't have ABS, they will lock, eventually) You increase the rear bias (flow to the rear brakes) until the rears lock up under hard braking (with the fronts not locked up) and then back it off a touch.
The goal is to get as much braking out of the rear brakes as you can, without them locking up before the fronts do. (If you don't have ABS, they will lock, eventually) You increase the rear bias (flow to the rear brakes) until the rears lock up under hard braking (with the fronts not locked up) and then back it off a touch.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 22, 2013, 04:50:36 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 22, 2013, 04:50:36 AM
[quote
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Masejoer on May 22, 2013, 03:28:13 PM
Post by: Masejoer on May 22, 2013, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;415765
And here is how i do it once again
I really like that. The valve is mounted? Any better pictures of how? Mine is dangling by brake lines further down in the engine bay.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 22, 2013, 11:12:35 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 22, 2013, 11:12:35 PM
Okay, from what I can gather we are all correct to a point but not 100% correct...go figure. I spent a little over an hour over on http://www.corner-carvers.com as they are a bit more technical than most boards and typically have access to engineers who work for the big three. Now this only applies to the Mustangs but it does shed some light on what we are talking about here. I will paraphrase what I read in one thread which the guys posting there are heavy hitters on that board and usually very technically correct.
The brake light warning switch on the '86 and down cars is mounted directly to the combination valve where the '87 and up cars have the float switch in the reservoir of the MC. The question raised here was if the only function of the shuttle valve was to actuate the brake light warning switch then why are the combination valves still present on the '87 and up cars since they have the float switch in the reservoir? The answer lies in the next paragraph...
Basically shuttle valve in the '86 and down combination valves actually do some sealing off due to their design (regardless if the stock proportioning valve is installed or has been removed) and also trip the dash brake light when the shuttle valve moves off center hence indicating a brake problem. The '87 and up cars the shuttle valve only works if the stock proportioning valve is intact and it works by bypassing the rear proportioning if the front braking fails. So in the Mustangs the '86 and down shuttle valve seals off the leaking side when brake pressure is applied but when it is not applied it centers and the leaking side can gravity drain. In the '87 and up the shuttle valve will bypass the proportioning valve only if the front develops a leak and allow full pressure to the rear brakes.
One of the issues they found with the '86 and down units was when trying to bleed one of the rear brakes the rear pressure would fall off to a trickle due to the shuttle valve doing its job because of the pressure differential between the rear and the front. If a front brake and rear brake were bled at the same time they would both flow very well. Now I have not experienced that or I just did not pay much attention when I bled the brakes on my '83 (gutted stock proportioning valve and manual Wilwood proportioning valve installed) and remember I am just restating what one of the guy's posted as his experience.
So all an all I would say that the combination valve does have a purpose and the shuttle valve does have some level of safety feature designed into it but when you go mucking with the OEM design then its all out the window. I myself prefer the stock look so I am not going to run out and delete this valve on my cars but I don't think there is any real advantage of keeping it if you are going to replumb the brake system from MC to the wheels.
CC thread reference (I think you have to be a registered member to see the thread but I cannot remember):
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27237
So with all of this I stand corrected and wish the driverguy luck on the brake project and please post pics when you are done.
Darren
The brake light warning switch on the '86 and down cars is mounted directly to the combination valve where the '87 and up cars have the float switch in the reservoir of the MC. The question raised here was if the only function of the shuttle valve was to actuate the brake light warning switch then why are the combination valves still present on the '87 and up cars since they have the float switch in the reservoir? The answer lies in the next paragraph...
Basically shuttle valve in the '86 and down combination valves actually do some sealing off due to their design (regardless if the stock proportioning valve is installed or has been removed) and also trip the dash brake light when the shuttle valve moves off center hence indicating a brake problem. The '87 and up cars the shuttle valve only works if the stock proportioning valve is intact and it works by bypassing the rear proportioning if the front braking fails. So in the Mustangs the '86 and down shuttle valve seals off the leaking side when brake pressure is applied but when it is not applied it centers and the leaking side can gravity drain. In the '87 and up the shuttle valve will bypass the proportioning valve only if the front develops a leak and allow full pressure to the rear brakes.
One of the issues they found with the '86 and down units was when trying to bleed one of the rear brakes the rear pressure would fall off to a trickle due to the shuttle valve doing its job because of the pressure differential between the rear and the front. If a front brake and rear brake were bled at the same time they would both flow very well. Now I have not experienced that or I just did not pay much attention when I bled the brakes on my '83 (gutted stock proportioning valve and manual Wilwood proportioning valve installed) and remember I am just restating what one of the guy's posted as his experience.
So all an all I would say that the combination valve does have a purpose and the shuttle valve does have some level of safety feature designed into it but when you go mucking with the OEM design then its all out the window. I myself prefer the stock look so I am not going to run out and delete this valve on my cars but I don't think there is any real advantage of keeping it if you are going to replumb the brake system from MC to the wheels.
CC thread reference (I think you have to be a registered member to see the thread but I cannot remember):
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27237
So with all of this I stand corrected and wish the driverguy luck on the brake project and please post pics when you are done.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 22, 2013, 11:22:55 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 22, 2013, 11:22:55 PM
Here are a couple of shots on how I mounted the Wilwood on my '83 and please pardon all the dirt and dust:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy142/dbrune_83/IMG_0917.jpg) (http://s786.photobucket.com/user/dbrune_83/media/IMG_0917.jpg.html)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy142/dbrune_83/IMG_0461a_zpsc2e5a655.jpg) (http://s786.photobucket.com/user/dbrune_83/media/IMG_0461a_zpsc2e5a655.jpg.html)
Darren
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy142/dbrune_83/IMG_0917.jpg) (http://s786.photobucket.com/user/dbrune_83/media/IMG_0917.jpg.html)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy142/dbrune_83/IMG_0461a_zpsc2e5a655.jpg) (http://s786.photobucket.com/user/dbrune_83/media/IMG_0461a_zpsc2e5a655.jpg.html)
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on June 03, 2013, 08:10:15 PM
Post by: Driverguy on June 03, 2013, 08:10:15 PM
One more thing...i remember reading somewhere that the mustang boosters are smaller in diameter, but longer than the thunderbird/cougar ones, is that correct? I refabbed my front clip with 2x4 tubing, and the booster wont fit back, so i either have to notch the frame rail, or if the mustang booster is smaller, install one of them instead.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 03, 2013, 08:22:56 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 03, 2013, 08:22:56 PM
I believe the mustang units are smaller in diameter. Easy thing would be have the parts guys pull both and compare. I can measure the OD the '95 GT unit in my Coupe later this evening if that will help. I would strongly suggest that you compare them side by side in case there is any offset from the center of the mounting point to the OD.
Darren
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on June 04, 2013, 02:38:58 AM
Post by: Driverguy on June 04, 2013, 02:38:58 AM
yes that would help. i was going to go with the 93 unit like you suggested, i guess they'd probably be the same size?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 04, 2013, 03:51:20 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 04, 2013, 03:51:20 PM
I was able to come across several threads on Mustang sites with this exact wording:
[COLOR="blue"]They are the same 205mm tandem booster. Only difference is the stud pattern. Sn95 booster has one stud slightly different and the thread pattern is metric. Fox and 93 cobra use SAE thread and 93 cobra uses same bolt pattern as fox.
You can use:
1993 cobra
1994-1995 any
1999-2004 v6
The 96-98 v6 booster uses a straight arm that may cause binding. 99-04 went back to the curved arm like the 94-95 mustangs. [/COLOR]
With that being said the 1993 Cobra or 94/95 GT unit should measure about 25-3/8" in circumference and have an 8-1/16" diameter. Please note that these boosters are physically longer than the Fox boosters.
Darren
[COLOR="blue"]They are the same 205mm tandem booster. Only difference is the stud pattern. Sn95 booster has one stud slightly different and the thread pattern is metric. Fox and 93 cobra use SAE thread and 93 cobra uses same bolt pattern as fox.
You can use:
1993 cobra
1994-1995 any
1999-2004 v6
The 96-98 v6 booster uses a straight arm that may cause binding. 99-04 went back to the curved arm like the 94-95 mustangs. [/COLOR]
With that being said the 1993 Cobra or 94/95 GT unit should measure about 25-3/8" in circumference and have an 8-1/16" diameter. Please note that these boosters are physically longer than the Fox boosters.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on June 06, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
Post by: Driverguy on June 06, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
I just got my master cylinder in the mail, and it only has 2 ports...not 3. Anyone else have this??
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 06, 2013, 09:40:14 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 06, 2013, 09:40:14 PM
Which MC did you order? I tried to look over past posts and did not see what you ordered.
Darren
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on June 06, 2013, 11:30:38 PM
Post by: Driverguy on June 06, 2013, 11:30:38 PM
i got a 95 mustang m/c
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 07, 2013, 10:47:48 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 07, 2013, 10:47:48 AM
Same as mine and its a two port. I think what you need is a 3 to 2 two port conversion kit as it sounds like your Cougar came with a three port system like the 87-93 Mustangs and I would almost bet your threads are SAE. Maximum Motorsports sells a 3 to 2 port conversion kit with lines (as do other sites - Google search) if you are going to keep your factory combination valve:
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=49_140_517_520_538&products_id=673
With what Maximum has listed on their site the 79-86 Mustangs are two port which is why most of the guys converting those cars use the 85 Lincoln Towncar MC or the SVO unit depending on which disc brake conversion they go with. The 87-93 Mustangs have a three port system so you have to convert it to a two port system to use any of the two port MC's.
So now you are back to tubing it up. If you want to stay SAE threads and keep the 95 MC then you need to get these adapters to convert from the metric threads on the 95 GT MC to standard threads if you want to reuse your fittings:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mustang-1993-COBRA-Master-Cylinder-Metric-adapter-79-86-/120684529332
Then you can get a 3 to 2 port conversion kit or piece one together yourself and I think you will be all set. This is a pretty decent write up on how to do the 3 to 2 port conversion but you will have to search out the fittings he uses as I have no idea the part numbers:
http://mjbobbitt.home.comcast.net/~mjbobbitt/mustang/mc/installation_94gt_kit.pdf
Darren
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=49_140_517_520_538&products_id=673
With what Maximum has listed on their site the 79-86 Mustangs are two port which is why most of the guys converting those cars use the 85 Lincoln Towncar MC or the SVO unit depending on which disc brake conversion they go with. The 87-93 Mustangs have a three port system so you have to convert it to a two port system to use any of the two port MC's.
So now you are back to tubing it up. If you want to stay SAE threads and keep the 95 MC then you need to get these adapters to convert from the metric threads on the 95 GT MC to standard threads if you want to reuse your fittings:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mustang-1993-COBRA-Master-Cylinder-Metric-adapter-79-86-/120684529332
Then you can get a 3 to 2 port conversion kit or piece one together yourself and I think you will be all set. This is a pretty decent write up on how to do the 3 to 2 port conversion but you will have to search out the fittings he uses as I have no idea the part numbers:
http://mjbobbitt.home.comcast.net/~mjbobbitt/mustang/mc/installation_94gt_kit.pdf
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 07, 2013, 11:34:46 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 07, 2013, 11:34:46 AM
This is directly from the same site that the 3 to 2 port conversion write up came from (http://home.comcast.net/~mjbobbitt/mustang/page1.html) and I thought it was some good info that others may find useful:
[COLOR="blue"]Here is a more specific information on the master cylinders mentioned:
'84-86 SVO - (SAE Threads) 1 1/8" bore, old style aluminum reservoir unit. no low fluid sensor. This is the same as the 84-90 Lincoln Mark VII. The difference is usually the SVO is aluminum, and the Lincoln can be a cast iron unit.
'85 Towncar - (SAE Threads) 1" bore, old style aluminum reservoir unit. no low fluid sensor.
'93 Cobra - (metric threads) 1.00" bore
'94-95 GT/V6 - (metric threads) 1 1/16" bore, stock plug in for the low fluid sensor
'94-98 V6 - (metric threads) 1 1/16" bore, stock plug in for the low fluid sensor
'94-95 Cobra - (metric threads) 15/16" bore, stock plug in for low fluid sensor. Ports are reversed thread sizes from 87-95 LX/V6/GT
'99 V6 - (metric threads) 1.000" and 1.006" bore. Can be converted to work for the low fluid sensor on the fox3 cars[/COLOR]
Darren
[COLOR="blue"]Here is a more specific information on the master cylinders mentioned:
'84-86 SVO - (SAE Threads) 1 1/8" bore, old style aluminum reservoir unit. no low fluid sensor. This is the same as the 84-90 Lincoln Mark VII. The difference is usually the SVO is aluminum, and the Lincoln can be a cast iron unit.
'85 Towncar - (SAE Threads) 1" bore, old style aluminum reservoir unit. no low fluid sensor.
'93 Cobra - (metric threads) 1.00" bore
'94-95 GT/V6 - (metric threads) 1 1/16" bore, stock plug in for the low fluid sensor
'94-98 V6 - (metric threads) 1 1/16" bore, stock plug in for the low fluid sensor
'94-95 Cobra - (metric threads) 15/16" bore, stock plug in for low fluid sensor. Ports are reversed thread sizes from 87-95 LX/V6/GT
'99 V6 - (metric threads) 1.000" and 1.006" bore. Can be converted to work for the low fluid sensor on the fox3 cars[/COLOR]
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Driverguy on June 07, 2013, 06:11:18 PM
Post by: Driverguy on June 07, 2013, 06:11:18 PM
Yeah thats what i was thinking, just get a splitter. When i put in the new brakes and that m/c, id be getting braided stainless lines anyway, so i could just go to the store, buy a splitter, figure out the thread sizes and buy the right lines and adapters. I read on the cool cats site, and on here, that the 95 was supposed to replace the 87-88 3 port m/c, but i guess that was incorrect...maybe someone should change that
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on June 07, 2013, 07:42:38 PM
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on June 07, 2013, 07:42:38 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;416720
This is directly from the same site that the 3 to 2 port conversion write up came from (http://home.comcast.net/~mjbobbitt/mustang/page1.html) and I thought it was some good info that others may find useful:
[COLOR="blue"]Here is a more specific information on the master cylinders mentioned:
'84-86 SVO - (SAE Threads) 1 1/8" bore, old style aluminum reservoir unit. no low fluid sensor. This is the same as the 84-90 Lincoln Mark VII. The difference is usually the SVO is aluminum, and the Lincoln can be a cast iron unit.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 23, 2013, 01:14:47 AM
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 23, 2013, 01:14:47 AM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;416640
With that being said the 1993 Cobra or 94/95 GT unit should measure about 25-3/8" in circumference and have an 8-1/16" diameter. Please note that these boosters are physically longer than the Fox boosters.
Darren
I keep reading that the '93 Cobra brake booster is smaller in diameter and longer than a stock Thunderbird brake booster.
Anyone know how much smaller and how much longer than the stock brake booster?
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 23, 2013, 10:53:37 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 23, 2013, 10:53:37 AM
If you will measure the distance around (circumference) and length of your stock booster and post those numbers I will measure the length on the SN95 booster on my Coupe. From there the difference in diameter and length can be found.
Darren
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 23, 2013, 10:55:50 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 23, 2013, 10:55:50 AM
One way to do it is to call some parts stores and see if they have them in stock. If they do go and measure the differences. I have even had OReillys order stuff in, check it out, and then tell them it won't work. They don't seem to mind but I always tell them I am in no rush so it comes with their stock orders which costs them zip according to a buddy that works there.
Darren
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: marianadeeps on November 24, 2013, 02:01:55 PM
Post by: marianadeeps on November 24, 2013, 02:01:55 PM
I just went through this on another thread in this same category. I have an 88 T-bird and had a heck of a time getting my rear calipers to work after the rear-end swap. I thought it was the proportioning valve that I got from a 88 TC so went to a manual valve for the rear discs. that didn't help either. It turns out that I had to change my MC (the stock one doesn't get enough fluid to the rear) even though CoolCats suggests I could use the stock one. I bought the 85 Lincoln Towncar Cardone 10-1518 or 13-1518 or Bendix 11858 and now it works just fine. It was a painful experience bleeding and scratching my head and bleeding some more. Hope you can short cut some of the headache.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 25, 2013, 12:13:11 AM
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 25, 2013, 12:13:11 AM
Wow, this is now a very long thread!
Somewhere in this thread it's probably already been covered, but I can't find it.
Are the connections on a stock 87 Thunderbird Sport master cylinder metric or SAE?
I'm thinking of going with a 93 Cobra booster and master cylinder, wondering about the connections.
Somewhere in this thread it's probably already been covered, but I can't find it.
Are the connections on a stock 87 Thunderbird Sport master cylinder metric or SAE?
I'm thinking of going with a 93 Cobra booster and master cylinder, wondering about the connections.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: ChristmasGT on December 10, 2013, 01:14:00 AM
Post by: ChristmasGT on December 10, 2013, 01:14:00 AM
Actually, I'm in the same boat with my 87 Turbo Coupe, anyone know? I'd like to go 93 Cobra booster and master Cylinder in order to keep things as simple as possible.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on March 16, 2014, 10:52:08 PM
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on March 16, 2014, 10:52:08 PM
OK, '93 Cobra brake booster and master cylinder are in the car. I purchased an adapter kit with them that is basically a T with two short brake lines that make life easy when doing the swap. I still had to bend one of my original lines to connect everything, but it wasn't difficult. My brakes feel so much better than they ever did before! My car really stops faster, just from this upgrade.
And for those that have wondered . . . the Cobra booster is 1 inch narrower around and 1 inch longer, give or take 1/8 of an inch. The length measurement is from firewall to for the MC. The designs are different in volume by quite a bit. The Cobra booster has a lot more volume, the T-bird booster has a spacer that decreases the booster internal volume.
And for those that have wondered . . . the Cobra booster is 1 inch narrower around and 1 inch longer, give or take 1/8 of an inch. The length measurement is from firewall to for the MC. The designs are different in volume by quite a bit. The Cobra booster has a lot more volume, the T-bird booster has a spacer that decreases the booster internal volume.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 17, 2014, 08:43:33 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 17, 2014, 08:43:33 AM
It
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Chrome on March 17, 2014, 09:54:44 AM
Post by: Chrome on March 17, 2014, 09:54:44 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;430716
It sounds like you are comparing a dual area to a single area BOOSTER!!! Please show a photo of the booster for clarification. Which master do you have 15/16 or 1 inch???? I do not understand what you mean by a spacer. If memory serves me the cobra booster is 205 MM duel unit. if in fact you have a duel unit that is perfect.
That would be the 1 inch.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Chrome on March 17, 2014, 09:57:38 AM
Post by: Chrome on March 17, 2014, 09:57:38 AM
Quote from: 1987tbird5.0;430704
OK, '93 Cobra brake booster and master cylinder are in the car. I purchased an adapter kit with them that is basically a T with two short brake lines that make life easy when doing the swap. I still had to bend one of my original lines to connect everything, but it wasn't difficult. My brakes feel so much better than they ever did before! My car really stops faster, just from this upgrade.
And for those that have wondered . . . the Cobra booster is 1 inch narrower around and 1 inch longer, give or take 1/8 of an inch. The length measurement is from firewall to for the MC. The designs are different in volume by quite a bit. The Cobra booster has a lot more volume, the T-bird booster has a spacer that decreases the booster internal volume.
Yeah, much different. If I had to do over, I would have attempted to change out the MC and booster before doing my 5-lug conversion. This simple upgrade could have saved me a lot of time and money. As far as lugs go, I would have been happy with just 4.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 17, 2014, 11:32:53 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 17, 2014, 11:32:53 AM
Sti
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Chrome on March 17, 2014, 02:08:30 PM
Post by: Chrome on March 17, 2014, 02:08:30 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;430722
Still need to know which booster he used. just me 4 lugs SUCK . You have a much better selection of wheels with 5 and if you are putting down any type of hp you need the extra lug!!
I don't know the specs of the 93 Cobra booster. I suppose it could be googled. All I know is it works really well, and is virtually a bolt on change out. As far as 4-lugs go, I don't plan on having any more than 350HP. 4-lug would be fine. I have found as many 4-lug wheels that I like as I have 5-lug. Snowflakes from a TC would look pretty good on my car.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 17, 2014, 06:08:51 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 17, 2014, 06:08:51 PM
Da
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 18, 2014, 08:53:02 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 18, 2014, 08:53:02 PM
The booster on the 93 Cobra is an 8-3/4" just like the 94-95 V8 Mustangs and the 94-04 V6 Mustangs. The difference is in the bolting pattern to the firewall as it is the same as our cars due to the Fox pattern. This keeps you from having to slot the holes in the firewall on a Fox car to install an SN95 (94-98) or New Edge (99-04) style booster.
The 93 Cobra MC is metric threaded and has a 1" bore.
Darren
The 93 Cobra MC is metric threaded and has a 1" bore.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 19, 2014, 06:05:52 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 19, 2014, 06:05:52 AM
Ok
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on March 19, 2014, 09:03:31 AM
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on March 19, 2014, 09:03:31 AM
I'm not sure this attachment is really working.
If it does, this is a picture of the original booster with the square spacer part on the firewall side.
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 19, 2014, 11:29:58 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 19, 2014, 11:29:58 AM
You
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 19, 2014, 11:41:09 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 19, 2014, 11:41:09 AM
Here
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 19, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 19, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
Tom,
The stock booster has an projection off of it where it bolts to the firewall similar to having a square spacer between the firewall and the round portion of the booster itself. You can see it in the middle of the picture he posted.
Darren
The stock booster has an projection off of it where it bolts to the firewall similar to having a square spacer between the firewall and the round portion of the booster itself. You can see it in the middle of the picture he posted.
Darren
Title: Brake master cylinder upgrade?
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 20, 2014, 07:04:55 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 20, 2014, 07:04:55 AM
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