Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 08, 2011, 08:32:57 PM
Post by: amooset on January 08, 2011, 08:32:57 PM
I picked up a 302 for $300 yesterday. After some investigation, I am not sure what it is I bought. The intake part number checks out for a 1983 mustang 4 barrel, but the block casting is E5AE C3B. That means the block is a 1985, correct? That would also make it a roller block? The plug wires are set up for the standard firing order, not the high output. Does this mean it is likely not a HO?
The guy I bought it from said he pulled it out of a 1983 mustang and it had less than 1000 miles on a rebuild. After taking a look at under one of the valve covers, I would believe it - very clean. There is some rust on the pulleys so I am guessing it had been sitting for awhile. I would just like to get an idea of what exactly I have short of tearing it all apart.
The guy I bought it from said he pulled it out of a 1983 mustang and it had less than 1000 miles on a rebuild. After taking a look at under one of the valve covers, I would believe it - very clean. There is some rust on the pulleys so I am guessing it had been sitting for awhile. I would just like to get an idea of what exactly I have short of tearing it all apart.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: hypostang on January 08, 2011, 08:37:53 PM
Post by: hypostang on January 08, 2011, 08:37:53 PM
All factory HO roller engines used 13726548 firing order , BUT it could still be a roller block
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 08, 2011, 09:27:56 PM
Post by: amooset on January 08, 2011, 09:27:56 PM
Are there any performance cams on the market that would change the firing order to something other than the HO order? It just seems odd to install a non ho engine into a car that came with one. I suppose it is possible that they just swapped over the intake and headers onto a standard output long block. Or the plug wires could be connected incorrectly. I suppose I won't know until I get it installed and running :( Either way, it will be an improvement over the 255 that is in the car presently.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: hypostang on January 08, 2011, 09:36:19 PM
Post by: hypostang on January 08, 2011, 09:36:19 PM
Sorry < I should have been more specific all 5.0 HO *roller* cam engines were 13726548 82-84 non HO used 15426378
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 08, 2011, 09:44:35 PM
Post by: amooset on January 08, 2011, 09:44:35 PM
Okay, that makes a little more sense. With the exception of the block casting. An 83 block would have a casting number of E3xx, right?
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: hypostang on January 08, 2011, 09:47:43 PM
Post by: hypostang on January 08, 2011, 09:47:43 PM
E3 or earlier generally , but it could be like a Jasper or Grooms rebuild or similar
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 08, 2011, 11:53:18 PM
Post by: amooset on January 08, 2011, 11:53:18 PM
Quote from: hypostang;348913
E3 or earlier generally , but it could be like a Jasper or Grooms rebuild or similar
Forgive my ignorance, but are those remanufacturers? Just give them a core and you get a rebuilt engine?
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: 88CougarGT on January 09, 2011, 01:36:09 AM
Post by: 88CougarGT on January 09, 2011, 01:36:09 AM
pull the valve cover and look for a stamping on the head. Find out what head its got on it. Most performance cams and HOs use the 1-3-7-2 firing order.
Something's not kosher about that engine though. Its got a serpentine pulley on the crank, but a v-belt water pump. 83s would have been all v-belt I think. It has early brackets on it though. Have you heard it run?
Something's not kosher about that engine though. Its got a serpentine pulley on the crank, but a v-belt water pump. 83s would have been all v-belt I think. It has early brackets on it though. Have you heard it run?
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 09, 2011, 03:57:24 AM
Post by: amooset on January 09, 2011, 03:57:24 AM
It has the same pulley setup as my 255 in the 82 tbird. I pulled the valve cover, but never looked for a stamp. Is there a specific place I need to look on the head for an identifying stamp?
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: 88CougarGT on January 09, 2011, 12:05:30 PM
Post by: 88CougarGT on January 09, 2011, 12:05:30 PM
I don't remember exactly where. I think its stamped on the outside edge, between cyls 6/7 or 7/8 (1/2 or 2/3 on the pass side). Should be similar to the block casting number (4 letters/digits starting with C,D or E.).
As far as knowing what cam you got in there, the only thing you could do is measure the lift at the pushrod end of the rocker. You would need a dial gauge and a magnetic base to do that.
As far as knowing what cam you got in there, the only thing you could do is measure the lift at the pushrod end of the rocker. You would need a dial gauge and a magnetic base to do that.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: hypostang on January 09, 2011, 12:22:39 PM
Post by: hypostang on January 09, 2011, 12:22:39 PM
Quote from: amooset;348930
Forgive my ignorance, but are those remanufacturers? Just give them a core and you get a rebuilt engine?
Exactly , you give them a core and you get a fresh rebuild .
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 09, 2011, 02:06:50 PM
Post by: amooset on January 09, 2011, 02:06:50 PM
I removed the valve cover and didn't find a ford part number. Attached are the two stamps I did find. Not sure if this helps any.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: hypostang on January 09, 2011, 02:19:49 PM
Post by: hypostang on January 09, 2011, 02:19:49 PM
The top one is the foundry mark the bottom is a date code
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: Bruce M on January 09, 2011, 02:49:41 PM
Post by: Bruce M on January 09, 2011, 02:49:41 PM
I beleave the casting # is under the intake ports. Use a mirror to check.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: jcassity on January 10, 2011, 12:34:18 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 10, 2011, 12:34:18 AM
roller engine has 6.27'' long pushrods
non-roller has 6.9'' long pushrods
casting is found on the bottom of the head found exposed in the lifter valley.
simply looking under the valve cover, you may find XXX arched in the middle and perhaps the casting number.
look along the exhaust manifold area where the shorter non water jacket bolts are and see if your casting number is arched around one of the head bolts either to the rear or the front. the heads go on either side of the engine so one side will allow you to see some information that is hidden by the other.
look for 4 digits
like mine C6xx heads.
scroll through my diy link for a bunch of casting number information.
non-roller has 6.9'' long pushrods
casting is found on the bottom of the head found exposed in the lifter valley.
simply looking under the valve cover, you may find XXX arched in the middle and perhaps the casting number.
look along the exhaust manifold area where the shorter non water jacket bolts are and see if your casting number is arched around one of the head bolts either to the rear or the front. the heads go on either side of the engine so one side will allow you to see some information that is hidden by the other.
look for 4 digits
like mine C6xx heads.
scroll through my diy link for a bunch of casting number information.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 10, 2011, 02:04:32 AM
Post by: amooset on January 10, 2011, 02:04:32 AM
I looked everywhere, high and low. The number simply isn't on there. Looks like I will have to remove the intake to find out what heads are on it. Not worth the trouble for me at this point. I don't plan any aggressive upgrades, but it would have been nice to know whether or not I got my money's worth...
While searching for numbers, I did discover an interesting gap where the intake meets the head on the driver's side. Should this be a concern?
While searching for numbers, I did discover an interesting gap where the intake meets the head on the driver's side. Should this be a concern?
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 10, 2011, 02:27:54 AM
Post by: amooset on January 10, 2011, 02:27:54 AM
The gap I am talking about looks like it might be this hole on the attached sample image. What exactly is this and does it matter if it isn't sealed off?
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: jcassity on January 10, 2011, 08:37:53 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 10, 2011, 08:37:53 AM
not sure, it is over top the egr port though. appears to have a freeze plug in your example.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 11, 2011, 04:50:58 AM
Post by: amooset on January 11, 2011, 04:50:58 AM
I just considered another possible issue. I plan on using a mechanical fuel pump, and there is a plate bolted on where the pump would go. I assume I can just remove the plate and install a pump, BUT if it is in fact equipped with a roller cam, will it have a lobe to actuate the fuel pump? Also, will the pump installed in my 255 swap over neatly since the fuel demands of a 4 barrel and 2 barrel are different? I normally wouldn't care, but the pump in the 255 is nearly new and If i can use it, I will.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: 88CougarGT on January 11, 2011, 07:11:53 AM
Post by: 88CougarGT on January 11, 2011, 07:11:53 AM
The fuel pump eccentric bolts to the end of the cam. My 88 had one even though the timing cover wasn't drilled for it. It should be there but double check anyway.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: Beau on January 11, 2011, 02:41:26 PM
Post by: Beau on January 11, 2011, 02:41:26 PM
If not, you can find the fuel pump eccentrics everywhere, I even have several here from old engines. If you can't find one, I'll mail you one of mine. No worries.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: jcassity on January 12, 2011, 01:45:25 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 12, 2011, 01:45:25 AM
remove the cover and feel look for the lobe.
my blue racer cam has a spining Bell instead of a lobe but either get the same job done.
the 3.8L is even provisioned for this but case molded to block off the option even though all of thier cams are provisioned to drive an external pump.
my blue racer cam has a spining Bell instead of a lobe but either get the same job done.
the 3.8L is even provisioned for this but case molded to block off the option even though all of thier cams are provisioned to drive an external pump.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 12, 2011, 03:56:28 AM
Post by: amooset on January 12, 2011, 03:56:28 AM
So on the v8's it isn't driven specifically by the cam, but by a bolt-on part. I can deal with that. Is there a huge difference in fuel pumps between vehicles equipped with 2 and 4 barrel carburetors? Like I said, ideally I would like to reuse the near new pump from the boat anchor of an engine currently installed in the car.
I would also like some input on my recent purchase - a carburetor on ebay for 30 bucks. It is basically the same carb that came OEM on the mustang engine (Holley 4180c, motorcraft branded). Mustangs in 83 did not come equipped with AOD transmissions, so the one I bought is from a van that was. I am hoping that the studs will match up seamlessly with my TV rod for the AOD I am going to use. It should work, correct? For 30 bucks, it is obviously going to need to be rebuilt, and that is no big deal for me. I just need to know what kit to buy. Is the kit going to be the same regardless of what vehicle the carb came from?
Thanks to everyone who has shared their input thus far. I really appreciate it :D
I would also like some input on my recent purchase - a carburetor on ebay for 30 bucks. It is basically the same carb that came OEM on the mustang engine (Holley 4180c, motorcraft branded). Mustangs in 83 did not come equipped with AOD transmissions, so the one I bought is from a van that was. I am hoping that the studs will match up seamlessly with my TV rod for the AOD I am going to use. It should work, correct? For 30 bucks, it is obviously going to need to be rebuilt, and that is no big deal for me. I just need to know what kit to buy. Is the kit going to be the same regardless of what vehicle the carb came from?
Thanks to everyone who has shared their input thus far. I really appreciate it :D
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: Beau on January 12, 2011, 04:40:49 AM
Post by: Beau on January 12, 2011, 04:40:49 AM
The fuel pump won't care whether it's feeding 2 holes or four. :-)
If it gets to the point where you'd need more fuel volume, you could go to an inline electric pump and dial it down as needed with an adjustable regulator, but even for a mildly built engine, that wouldn't be needed.
If it gets to the point where you'd need more fuel volume, you could go to an inline electric pump and dial it down as needed with an adjustable regulator, but even for a mildly built engine, that wouldn't be needed.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 12, 2011, 05:02:54 AM
Post by: amooset on January 12, 2011, 05:02:54 AM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;349411
The fuel pump won't care whether it's feeding 2 holes or four. :-)
If it gets to the point where you'd need more fuel volume, you could go to an inline electric pump and dial it down as needed with an adjustable regulator, but even for a mildly built engine, that wouldn't be needed.
Yes, I was concerned about volume and wasn't sure if the pump could keep up. It will be a very mild build (for now). The aod and rear are not built up enough for high performance. I just want to be able to pass on the highway at more than a leisurely pace.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: jcassity on January 12, 2011, 10:11:34 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 12, 2011, 10:11:34 PM
i kinda disagree, you can try out your existing pump to get it running but the high volume pumps are worth it in carb applications.
not sure what you mean by a bolt on part of the lobe that drives the fuel pump. on the cam,, there will be a circle directly in line of the fuel pump opening. thats where the arm of the mechanical fuel pump rides.
you can take off the valve covers and remove spark plug 1.
get your harmonic on zero TDC and verify number one piston is up top,,and,,, both rocker arms on number 1 are loose.
follow your firing order based on rocker arm movement to figure out if its an ho or so firing order.
just use the exahust valve moment as your reference as they will be the items that will move in order of the firing.
just thought id toss that out there since you asked earlier how to tell if its an ho or so cam.
not sure what you mean by a bolt on part of the lobe that drives the fuel pump. on the cam,, there will be a circle directly in line of the fuel pump opening. thats where the arm of the mechanical fuel pump rides.
you can take off the valve covers and remove spark plug 1.
get your harmonic on zero TDC and verify number one piston is up top,,and,,, both rocker arms on number 1 are loose.
follow your firing order based on rocker arm movement to figure out if its an ho or so firing order.
just use the exahust valve moment as your reference as they will be the items that will move in order of the firing.
just thought id toss that out there since you asked earlier how to tell if its an ho or so cam.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 13, 2011, 01:20:55 AM
Post by: amooset on January 13, 2011, 01:20:55 AM
Quote from: jcassity;349501
i kinda disagree, you can try out your existing pump to get it running but the high volume pumps are worth it in carb applications.
not sure what you mean by a bolt on part of the lobe that drives the fuel pump. on the cam,, there will be a circle directly in line of the fuel pump opening. thats where the arm of the mechanical fuel pump rides.
you can take off the valve covers and remove spark plug 1.
get your harmonic on zero TDC and verify number one piston is up top,,and,,, both rocker arms on number 1 are loose.
follow your firing order based on rocker arm movement to figure out if its an ho or so firing order.
just use the exahust valve moment as your reference as they will be the items that will move in order of the firing.
just thought id toss that out there since you asked earlier how to tell if its an ho or so cam.
Okay, makes sense now, thanks. I will try to figure out the firing order when it isn't so cold outside. The more I research I do, the more issues I uncover... I suppose this goes with the territory of being my first engine swap.
In doing some prep work today, I noticed that a couple of teeth are chipped on the flywheel. I have read that these engines are balanced externally and the balancer and flywheel are matched to the crank. Is that correct? Will I be able to reuse the flywheel from the 255 since it isn't damaged, or will that throw off the balance? If I can't use that flywheel, would I be able to get one from a salvage yard that will roughly match what I need?
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 25, 2011, 04:47:03 AM
Post by: amooset on January 25, 2011, 04:47:03 AM
Out with the old!
I did a decent amount of research on flexplates/flywheels and I found some good information to pass along if anyone else runs across the same issues. Correct me if I am mistaken...
-Pre-1981 302's and all 351w use a 28 oz balance
-The 255 has a balance offset of 50 oz, the same as 81 and later 302's.
-In my case, the AOD torque converter requires the use of a 164 tooth flexplate. NOT the 157 tooth that my engine came with (attached c4 used this size).
Hopefully next week I will have everything in and ready to fire up. The next issue will be figuring out how to get the carburetor that I rebuilt to cooperate with the AOD tv rod. It appears as though there is a provision on the linkage for a kickdown cable of some sort and I don't know if that will be compatible with the tv rod. The stud is positioned differently than the original so I don't know if it will work.
I did a decent amount of research on flexplates/flywheels and I found some good information to pass along if anyone else runs across the same issues. Correct me if I am mistaken...
-Pre-1981 302's and all 351w use a 28 oz balance
-The 255 has a balance offset of 50 oz, the same as 81 and later 302's.
-In my case, the AOD torque converter requires the use of a 164 tooth flexplate. NOT the 157 tooth that my engine came with (attached c4 used this size).
Hopefully next week I will have everything in and ready to fire up. The next issue will be figuring out how to get the carburetor that I rebuilt to cooperate with the AOD tv rod. It appears as though there is a provision on the linkage for a kickdown cable of some sort and I don't know if that will be compatible with the tv rod. The stud is positioned differently than the original so I don't know if it will work.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: Haystack on January 25, 2011, 04:32:56 PM
Post by: Haystack on January 25, 2011, 04:32:56 PM
You can get alittle bit of money out of that 255 crank in the right circles. It is the same setup as a 302, but is much lighter. The factory stock motored guys really like those cranks.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: Kitz Kat on January 25, 2011, 04:48:54 PM
Post by: Kitz Kat on January 25, 2011, 04:48:54 PM
If it's wired now non ho, I doubt someone would change the firing order to mess with your head. You say it's rebuilt, that could mean anything. might have some good parts in it. I would be real surprised if it was a roller block. I see it had headers on it, what carb was on it? 2-4 stock or ?
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 25, 2011, 06:37:11 PM
Post by: amooset on January 25, 2011, 06:37:11 PM
I do plan to pull the 255 crank and sell it. It does have shorty headers and did not come with a carb. It has the stock mustang 4 barrel intake. All of the smog and egr equipment has been crimped off. I am replacing the valve cover gaskets since they were dried out and stuck when I pulled the left cover off. When I do that, I will verify the correct firing order.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: V8Demon on January 25, 2011, 06:51:58 PM
Post by: V8Demon on January 25, 2011, 06:51:58 PM
Quote from: hypostang;348910
Sorry < I should have been more specific all 5.0 HO *roller* cam engines were 13726548 82-84 HO used 15426378
Negative. the new HO firing order 13726548 came into effect in 1982.....
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: hypostang on January 25, 2011, 08:02:00 PM
Post by: hypostang on January 25, 2011, 08:02:00 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;350847
Negative. the new HO firing order 13726548 came into effect in 1982.....
Yup I typed without thinking, I'm grateful for your proofreading
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: V8Demon on January 25, 2011, 08:33:06 PM
Post by: V8Demon on January 25, 2011, 08:33:06 PM
Hey, I make mistakes too ;)
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 26, 2011, 04:33:18 AM
Post by: amooset on January 26, 2011, 04:33:18 AM
Tonight I checked the valve sequence and installed the fuel pump (it does have the eccentric). The firing order is the standard for sure. It is slightly disappointing, but not unexpected. What kind of power can I expect from it? Surely the 4 barrel carb and headers help it breathe a little better.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: Bruce M on January 26, 2011, 07:33:14 AM
Post by: Bruce M on January 26, 2011, 07:33:14 AM
Just because it has the standard firing order doesn't mean a whole lot. You said it had been rebuilt, maybe it has a after market cam. You will not know unless you check valve lift or until you start it. I wouldn't expect it to be a big cam cause it had the stock intake and carb. On a carbed 302, depending on the cam and heads you could expect anywhere from 150 to around 200 hp. If you put a mild cam in it and a better intake & carb, good exhaust, and ignition, you might get 250 - 275ish hp.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on January 27, 2011, 04:20:09 AM
Post by: amooset on January 27, 2011, 04:20:09 AM
Tonight I was replacing the motor mounts since the old ones were cracked and rotted. After removing them, I attempted to reinstall the new ones. The studs that keep the mount from rotating (not the bolt) do not line up with the holes in the k member. Has anyone else run across this problem? Will I need to drill new holes to accommodate the different mount style? The other side is completely different as well.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on February 04, 2011, 05:41:37 PM
Post by: amooset on February 04, 2011, 05:41:37 PM
It is now installed and fires right up. The first time even! I half expected a long annoying troubleshooting process. All I need to do now is figure how to get the TV rod attached to the carb linkage- I am still trying to figure that one out. It also needs an exhaust system. Definitely too loud with straight headers lol.
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: amooset on February 07, 2011, 01:55:06 PM
Post by: amooset on February 07, 2011, 01:55:06 PM
I think I have worked out a solution for the tv rod. In my garage I found an old cfi throttle body from a car w/ an AOD. I just need to know if I can swap over the levers onto the throttle shaft of the 4180. I am just not sure how to remove and reattach the linkage. Ideas? Will that be a feasable solution?
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: Nytedragon on December 13, 2011, 05:17:46 PM
Post by: Nytedragon on December 13, 2011, 05:17:46 PM
I found out my block has the same casting number. But I have the py cast manifolds and cfi...and a load of oil leaks. The fuel pump eccentric was never covered, the oil pan and valve cover bolts were at least 5 full turns loose and I think the intake manifold gasket is shot. How are you doing on this car?
Title: "New" engine, many questions.
Post by: Sinista Chicken on April 25, 2012, 10:52:09 PM
Post by: Sinista Chicken on April 25, 2012, 10:52:09 PM
How are you coming on this project, I am interested to hear, as I will be having some of the same issues when I get that far. Mainly that forsaken TV rod.