Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: dragon574444 on June 05, 2010, 01:11:55 PM
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on June 05, 2010, 01:11:55 PM
Yup. Finally got her on the road. I love it. She runs good, but it has an issue. While driving, the car rides smooth, but occasionally the car sputters while accelerating, often times up a hill. It never stalls, after a few seconds of it, it'll go back to normal. Mashing the throttle doesn't help it along much :mullet:
So what do you guys think? TPS? Fuel Filter?
Also, it seems a little weaker than I was expecting. Has some power, but not what I was expecting.
This is the 5.0 btw. I gave it a tune up like, 5 miles ago, as well as an oil change, air filter, and a complete brake system replacement
Oh yeah, one more thing. The gas pedal is a little stiff. I'm attributing this to the car's age, but just letting you guy know. It's not a problem at all, I was just used to my mom's 01 Windstar...
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: Haystack on June 05, 2010, 03:17:38 PM
Did you replace wires? Sounds like a timing issue. I would check codes first, and if you did plugs/wires I would make sure they are all routed correctly.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on June 05, 2010, 05:16:43 PM
Spark plug wires? Yeah, along with the distributor cap and plugs of course. One wire, one plug at a time. Like I said, this only happens occasionally and corrects itself in a few seconds. What exactly do you mean by routing? I'm no expert, just a 17 year old kid with his first car...
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: Whiteboy on June 06, 2010, 12:55:52 AM
if it were TPS i think it would do it more often.... But idk.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: sarjxxx on June 06, 2010, 12:58:17 AM
By routing he means are they running from the correct pin on the distributor to the correct spark plug. If you went one wire at a time, you most likely did not screw that up. And that sort of problem shoudn't be as intermittent as you're saying. But timing is entirely possible as a problem, you should check it, too make sure you didn't accidentally bump it out of place when you were doing the wires/cap.
Just for s+g's, check your fluid level in your transmission too. Does it feel like it happens on downshifts?
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: Haystack on June 06, 2010, 01:38:18 AM
Make sure you have good spark at all of the plugs and there all the way seated, as well as all the parts in the distributor. What did you gap the plugs at, and did it do it before the tune up?
I would also check to make sure your timing is still at or near base, and double check all your wires are in the right place, cause these cars will still run with one or two wires off or in the wrong place.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on June 06, 2010, 08:15:58 AM
Hmm, now that you mention it, I didn't check the gaping. I figured Advanced Auto would have given me the correct ones for my car. I'll check that Monday. What should they be set at? So these cars will still run with a wire in the wrong place? That's pretty interesting. I'll double check all my connections, make sure they're tight. I'll check codes while I'm there.
It could be the transmission, but I'm praying it isn't that. I'll check the fluid level Monday. As far as I know, it is the factory original AOD with 145300 on it.
Thanks for the help guys. I'll report back Monday with my findings.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: hypostang on June 06, 2010, 12:04:18 PM
You should ALWAYS check and set the gap on new plugs . I worked for a Federated parts supplier and you would not believe how some parts are treated in a warehouse setting :hick:
And your Gap should be .050 :D
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on June 06, 2010, 12:15:37 PM
Thanks
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: sarjxxx on June 06, 2010, 10:31:39 PM
Threadjacking:
I've heard not to gap plugs like Bosch Platinum +2's and +3's. Is this true?
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: hypostang on June 06, 2010, 10:36:38 PM
Quote from: sarjxxx;324537
Threadjacking:
I've heard not to gap plugs like Bosch Platinum +2's and +3's. Is this true?
I have heard that as well , but I have never used them, but if they have some sort of packaging that protects the end of the plug from warehouse mishaps or poor handling I guess that would be different :D
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: sarjxxx on June 06, 2010, 10:40:09 PM
Cardboard cylinders that "protect" the ends slide up and around each one, then they're of course in individual boxes too. I have all 6 in mine right now. I examined all of them and they appeared to all be the same gap... :end of threadjacking
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on June 07, 2010, 05:28:16 PM
Ok, well, I checked the wires, one wire in the center of the distributor cap was a little loose, but that didn't fix it. The transmission fluid looks to be at the correct level, but the fluid isn't red. It looks kinda like brand new motor oil, kinda orangy-gold.
Also, I talked to a friend today, he said it could be the egr, does that make sense? I'm gonna pull codes tomorrow for sure. I'll check the plugs tomorrow too. In the mean time...uhhh...what -was- this? It's on the passenger side, where did it go to? Should I cap it?
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on June 07, 2010, 05:56:58 PM
Oh, one more thing, you know that kinda...blade inside the air cleaner assembly? Right where the metal meets the plastic tube? Is that supposed to move? It's kinda stiff. If I push it closed with my hand, it likes to stick and stay closed...
I dunno, I really want her to drive better. It's a little unnerving worrying about the next hill coming up...I've been giving her extra throttle before I get to the hill and keeping my foot steady up it.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: hypostang on June 07, 2010, 06:02:20 PM
That broken piece is part of the A.I.R. (smog) system and yes you should block it off it it looks like the hose that is supposed to go there is beside it . It actually will create an exhaust leak if left open. And another thing I noticed the top port on your PCV valve should be capped off :D
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on June 07, 2010, 06:07:38 PM
Yup, the top of the PCV is capped. That's the stupid one advanced auto gave me...
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 08, 2010, 01:00:39 AM
You can pull that black plastic part of the PCV off and jut run the hose to the PCV. That part is just there because some cars use it as most PCV valves are universal.
Can you pull codes? You will end up throwing money at parts that you may not need without pulling codes...
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: Haystack on June 09, 2010, 12:34:17 AM
When I was 16 I screwed up my plug wires, well actually a friend did. He did one side, I did the other. I drove the car to a shop on 4 cylinders. Show flames out of the cat, had no exhaust after it. When I was in auto my shop teacher wanted to show the class how to do a compression check using my car. Pulled all four on the drivers side. I cranked it and it started right up, he pulled two more and the same thing. Didn't run good though.
Pull codes, and let us know what it says.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: sarjxxx on June 12, 2010, 02:55:11 AM
Your (v8) car ran on [2] cylinders????
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on June 12, 2010, 01:01:28 PM
Well, the car's gotten worse. I decided it isn't safe to drive the way it is. It's starving for fuel whenever you give it gas. I changed the fuel filter, that didn't help too much. The gas that came out of it was terrible. It was brown, like coffee with milk in it. My dad thinks it might be the pump, he thinks that because the car has been sitting for 8 years, all the gunk and rust at the bottom of the tank worked its way into the pump.
I pulled codes...but I'm not sure how to read them....so, via the power of the internet, could you guys give me a hand? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7r4VCOQfk
Also, I found a loose wire. Any ideas? It gives 7.4 volts, and isn't affected by the throttle. Should it be grounded? It's the black wire near my finger. The wires in the engine compartment have seen better days. Some of the insulation will break away by just touching it.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 12, 2010, 01:50:21 PM
Could be lots of things but you defiantly need to check fuel pressure with the engine under load... If the pressure doesn't maintain 39 psi, the pump is weak or maybe the coupling hose inside the tank has ruptured... Could maybe have a F/P regulator issue but if it makes 30psi or so idling, and starts to climb under load only to fall, you have a supply problem and it's in the tank... Also the screens in the injectors sometime clog up and need to be serviced... Some will recommend just removing them but I feel that's a big no-no, and you'll wind up with clogged injectors...
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on June 13, 2010, 08:20:08 PM
So uhh....was anyone able to figure out the codes from the video I posted?
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: sarjxxx on June 13, 2010, 10:37:25 PM
http://www.fordfuelinjection.com
this site has all the information you need to figure it out.
The codes and the corresponding information are near the bottom of the page.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: softtouch on June 14, 2010, 12:16:25 AM
Quote from: dragon574444;325141
Well, the car's gotten worse. I decided it isn't safe to drive the way it is. It's starving for fuel whenever you give it gas. I changed the fuel filter, that didn't help too much. The gas that came out of it was terrible. It was brown, like coffee with milk in it. My dad thinks it might be the pump, he thinks that because the car has been sitting for 8 years, all the gunk and rust at the bottom of the tank worked its way into the pump.
I pulled codes...but I'm not sure how to read them....so, via the power of the internet, could you guys give me a hand? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7r4VCOQfk
Also, I found a loose wire. Any ideas? It gives 7.4 volts, and isn't affected by the throttle. Should it be grounded? It's the black wire near my finger. The wires in the engine compartment have seen better days. Some of the insulation will break away by just touching it.
You ran KOEO (Key On Engine Off) test. There are two categories of codes with this test. The first are the result of tests that are currently running. You got 11 11, codes are read out twice. 11 is no faults Following a single separator pulse the Memory codes are read out. These codes are stored while the engine is running. Unless you have had the battery disconnected recently they could have been there for awhile. You got memory codes: 14 PIP (profile ignition pickup) problem. 18 Ignition Diagnostic Monitor 22 MAP sensor frequency out of specs. 63 TPS sensor voltage low.
You should also run KOER (Key On Engine Running) tests.
If the mystery wire only has the 7.5 volts when the engine is running, it is the stator voltage from the alternator. I have early wiring diagrams that show this going to the VIP test connector. They apparently changed their mind and just left the wire in there. DO NOT GROUND IT!!
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: Haystack on June 14, 2010, 02:08:58 AM
Also, When you do run codes, make sure the engine is up to operating temperature. On fordfuelinjection.com, it also has ways and voltages to test your sensors at. Get with that link and let us know.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on June 14, 2010, 03:05:34 PM
Thanks for the help. The KOEO was at operating temp. I'll do a running test...Wednesday? I've been real busy lately. Graduating tomorrow! Awards night tonight...won't be driving to either...
The battery has been disconnected often, probably two or three start ups before I pulled the codes. I replaced the TPS, so 63 should be irrelevant. I don't think my car has MAP sensors? 14 and 18?
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: sarjxxx on June 14, 2010, 09:27:31 PM
this is a map sensor
It probably looks a little different on yours, as you have a TC, but I believe it should be mounted near the same place on the firewall
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: TheEskimo on June 15, 2010, 04:43:55 AM
Fow what it is worth, the MAP sensor on my '85 Thunderbird is located behind the washer fluid reservoir. On the '87 Cougar it is located as shown in the pic above.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on August 27, 2010, 06:32:35 PM
For anyone who was following this thread, I think I found my problem.
I was changing the fuel pump today, and I left a fair amout of gas left in the tank. I didn't have anything to siphon the gas out, so there was about 1/4 of a tank. I was trying to get the straps off, and one of the supports that the bolt goes into was completely shot.(HAYLP!)
Yeah, that's the gas that came out of it. There's a nice layer of good gas, but the picture says it all. My car runs nice in park, so while in park, the fuel pump is able to suck up all the good gas at the top. My driveway is really bumpy, so as I go down the road, it mixes all of the gas up and the engine decides it doesn't like brown gas. This also explains why it fights to get up hills, it's fighting both elevation and bad gas. I'm gonna try to get as much good gas and use that for the lawn mower...
Fuel pump will be here tomorrow along with new straps. What can I do about the broken strap support though?
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: Old_Paint on August 27, 2010, 08:40:54 PM
Umm, yeah, I would say Gasoline/Water slurry is usually not exactly the best to run in one. But, to chime in on the plug wire routing issue ....
There are two firing orders on the 5.0L. HO, and non HO. The Non-HO firing order is 15426378. Can't remember the HO order, but notice that 7 and 8 fire back to back on the non-HO cam. When you install the wires on the LH side (driver's) of the engine, as they leave the dizzy, make sure to keep #5 and #6 wires between #7 and #8 as long as you can, and then separate 7 and 8 as much as possible after 6 drops out of the bundle. When you take 7 down to the cylinder, make sure it crosses #8 at a right angle (90 degrees) so that the wires are NEVER close together and parallel to each other.
This sounds like a bunch of hooey, but there is actually a Ford TSB about this, and I actually experienced the problem with my '92 F-150. If 7 and 8 wires are not separated, when 7 fires, it can actually induce enough current in #8 wire to fire the plug. When 7 is on the power stroke, 8 is on the compression stroke. This will cause SERIOUS detonation, and even destroy #8 cylinder.
As for the plugs. DO NOT use Bosch platinums in a Ford engine with a Ford TFI ignition. The TFI will EAT those plugs. The ceramic around the electrodes will shatter. Guess where that ceramic goes. Stay with the Motorcraft coppers, you won't regret it. They last longer, and perform better. Again, I speak from experience at the School of Hard Knocks (excuse the pun). For all your ignition parts, STAY with MOTORCRAFT parts. I've tried MSD, Bosch, and a few other things, and ALWAYS wind up coming back to Motorcraft. I'm not saying Bosch is a bad plug. It works WONDERFULLY in a VW Beetle air-cooled engine with an old school breaker points ignition. Just not in a Ford with TFI.
Just my .02 worth.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on August 27, 2010, 08:56:33 PM
Quote from: Old_Paint;333821
Umm, yeah, I would say Gasoline/Water slurry is usually not exactly the best to run in one. But, to chime in on the plug wire routing issue ....
There are two firing orders on the 5.0L. HO, and non HO. The Non-HO firing order is 15426378. Can't remember the HO order, but notice that 7 and 8 fire back to back on the non-HO cam. When you install the wires on the LH side (driver's) of the engine, as they leave the dizzy, make sure to keep #5 and #6 wires between #7 and #8 as long as you can, and then separate 7 and 8 as much as possible after 6 drops out of the bundle. When you take 7 down to the cylinder, make sure it crosses #8 at a right angle (90 degrees) so that the wires are NEVER close together and parallel to each other.
This sounds like a bunch of hooey, but there is actually a Ford TSB about this, and I actually experienced the problem with my '92 F-150. If 7 and 8 wires are not separated, when 7 fires, it can actually induce enough current in #8 wire to fire the plug. When 7 is on the power stroke, 8 is on the compression stroke. This will cause SERIOUS detonation, and even destroy #8 cylinder.
As for the plugs. DO NOT use Bosch platinums in a Ford engine with a Ford TFI ignition. The TFI will EAT those plugs. The ceramic around the electrodes will shatter. Guess where that ceramic goes. Stay with the Motorcraft coppers, you won't regret it. They last longer, and perform better. Again, I speak from experience at the School of Hard Knocks (excuse the pun). For all your ignition parts, STAY with MOTORCRAFT parts. I've tried MSD, Bosch, and a few other things, and ALWAYS wind up coming back to Motorcraft. I'm not saying Bosch is a bad plug. It works WONDERFULLY in a VW Beetle air-cooled engine with an old school breaker points ignition. Just not in a Ford with TFI.
Just my .02 worth.
Thanks for the info. I didn't buy the plugs, my dad did. They say Denso puppiesan on them... I'll check the routing, that's pretty interesting. Is this a problem even with brand new wires?
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: Slinky on August 28, 2010, 10:44:01 AM
When you say the strap support broke, are you talking about the piece that goes behind the the frame that the bolt goes into?
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 28, 2010, 03:44:57 PM
HO firing pattern is the same as a 351W.
1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
I have it written on the core support of my car in perminant marker.
Darren
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: dragon574444 on August 28, 2010, 04:24:41 PM
Quote from: Slinky;333889
When you say the strap support broke, are you talking about the piece that goes behind the the frame that the bolt goes into?
Yup, one side was fine, the bolt wasn't too hard to get out, the support was rust free. The other side was swiss cheese, the torque to get the bolt off was more than the support could handle.
Title: Sputtering while driving *update*
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 29, 2010, 01:10:06 AM