I ran engine codes on the bird tonight, bought a semi cheap scanner and the results are
23: Throttle position sensor signal voltage out of test specifications. I ran three tests and this came up once.
67: Improper signalssent from nuetral driveswitch, nuetral gear switch, nuetral pressureswitch etc..
33: EGR valve position sensors or pressure feedback indicated egr valve is not opening.
I'm not too concerned with 67, I know I can shift the car out of gear without the key being inserted into the ignition. Any ideas on the other two? The car was warm, for about 10 minutes, is it possilbe the EGR didn't warm up? I'm letting it idle now, I'll recheck codes again in a few. Just thought I would post.
Alright I drove it around for a few, after it was running, tested codesagain got 23, 67, 1, 33. I'm not sure why 1 came up, it means all clear. But I'm looking at the codes listed above. Help? Can an EGR be cleaned? Is that the cnoical shaped white thing on the back of where the air intake connects.
dissconnect the battery and hold the brake pedal down for a few seconds to clear the codes, connet the battery and drive it around for a bit and retest.
then post what codes you have after all that.
is it running funny or were you just curious to see what codes come up?
Well randomly the car will rev, either in park or drive, which is kind of dangerous. And the car seems to burn a lot of gas, more than it should. So i thought it might be worth testing before I threw money at it not knowing. I recently just put a new battery in the car, so the codes were cleared when I did that.
what code scanner did you use? i couldnt for the life of me find an odb0 scanner for my car(or a factory one) when i was searching for one.
were the same codes shown during a self diagnostic test with a test light?
when i ran codes on my tbird and got 33(egr) it wasnt from the egr valve, that worked fine, it was because one of the small plastic hoses got knocked off down by the smog pump(while i was changing plugs i think) and the heat riser thing wasnt opening.
corresponding rough running and very lousy gas mileage vanished once it was fixed.
your idle issue may also have something to do with that but it was a while and a few cars ago so my memory isnt all that great. i wouldnt assume the TPS sensor is at fault right away. not that you were or anything... :P
the 1 is a separator code,, it separates codes that are happening now from codes stored in memeory.
as i said before, i modifed the drawing so i substitute in a 12v buzzer (option 1) to hear the codes so i can focus on listening and writting the numbers.
http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/OBD_I.html
enjoy:D
specs say that it takes 40 warm up cycles to clear any long term stored codes. just worry about the codes that show up now.
as for clearing the immediate codes, others have thier way of doing it but i just yank out the jumper wire while the codes are being dumped out and they go away (only on my 20th, not on my 87LS).
quoted from my in work DIY list for the tps test
----------------------
tps test throttle position sensor
1 location-- vertical mounted on pass side of CFI with org/blk/grn wires.
Probe the green wire with positive lead of a meter and ground out
the black lead of your meter.
2 turn ign sw on ,, no start
3 the voltage reading on your meter should be around .5-.9 vdc.
4 operate the throttle linkage very very very slowly and note increase in voltage. Your increase should be smooth with no jumping and it should top out at around 4.6 vdc.
notes..
It is best to use an buttstuffog (needle type) meter when doing this step because it will detect flat or open spots on the variable resiseter (tps) better than the digital types.
you can bench test the tps buy hooking up to the green and black then black to org and measuring resistance and the two readings should match. The green wire is the center tap of the variable resistor. The resistance reading will be proportional to what you see in dc volts.
if you find your low end voltage is at or above one volt,, use a chainsaw file to file out the mounting holes so that you can mount and adjust the tps CCw to achieve the "less than a volt" goal.
when installing the tps,, lay it in place but slightly clockwise,, seat the tps then rotate it ccw to line up the mounting screws. There is a little pin up in the likage that will put your tps in a bind if you dont do this correctly. You cant just lay it on and bolt it down any old way.
quoted from my diy link,, some info about the EGR.
basically a rubber umbrealla moves based on vac pressure. the rubber diaphram moves a pin which is moving a variable resistor. if the diaphram in your egr is blown, it will not move the EVP sensor.
stick a vac line on the egr and suck on the other end of the hose. now let the hose stick to your tongue. if it holds your tongue to the hose for a min or so, its a good EGR and perhaps the evp sensor is worn....your can read below and get the idea.
==================
=============================
EGR/emissions solenoids (codes)
Dual Thermactor Air control Solenoid Valve- both should read 51-108 ohms
EGR Solenoid Vacuum Valve Assembly - both should read 32 to 64 ohms
EGR Valve Position Sensor EVP (OR/W to brn/ltgrn resistance is 5.5k with no vac and 100ohms with vac)(4-6vdc on VREF or/wht)
Electronic Vacuum Regulator EVR 30 to 70 ohms (koeo voltage is about 10.5vdc)
============================\
EGR test and EVP sensor test
apply vac pres to egr vac line fitting.
if it holds the diaphram for a long time,, the diaphram is good
remove carbon buildup on egr base as well as egr base plate assy for 3.8l engines
EVP test (egr sensor)
wire id...
EEC PIN 26 "VREF" orange/white (parallels off to map)
EEC PIN 27 "EVP SIGNAL" brown/light green
EEC PIN 46 "SIG Return" black/white (parallels off to self test conn)
disconnect vac line
disconnect elec conn
hook ohm meter up to the VREF adn EVP Sig contacts
hook up vac guage or apply vac to egr
ohm meter should start out at about 5.5k ohms.
as vac is increased to max, resistance should bottom out to no less than 100ohms.
key on, engine off
cap off vac fitting on evp sensor
measure for 4 to 6 volts dc between VREF and SIGNAL RETURN (ground)
______________________________
ECT sensor test feeds the computer
Resistance test pin to pin of the sensor (this is a variable resister proportional to temperature including outside air temp if the motor is cold)
at 50degF=58K ohms
at 65degF=40K ohms
at 180degF=3.6K ohms
at 220degF=1.8K ohms
next clean the end of the sensor with scotch brite ect and retest
if high temps persist, replace coolant temp sensor and ECT as a matched set.
if that does not work, start looking at your coolant system parts.
----------------------
ACT sensor test ,,,feeds the computer
Resistance test pin to pin of the sensor (this is a variable resister proportional to temperature including outside air temp if the motor is cold)
at 50degF=58K ohms
at 65degF=40K ohms
at 180degF=3.6K ohms
at 220degF=1.8K ohms
MIL indicator light huh.........?
he means the "check engine light", malifunction indicator light(MIL) is the proper way to refer to it. atleast i hope thats the right way to...
Depending on year model, Ford interchangeably used MIL (Malfunction Indicator Light) and CEL (Check Engine Light) terminology for the same purpose. The CEL was not wired out on the 86 and earlier 'Birds, and the only way to check the codes is with an external light or buzzer connected to the STO pin of the DCL, or re-wire STO to one of the unused indicators in the cluster. Gotta remember, OBDI and EFI technology was still evolving, and everyone was still trying to get the engineers to agree on what light should be used for what purpose. If you want 5
ONLY ways to do something, just ask 5 engineers.
Thanks for the clarification. I disconnected the battery yesterday afternoonand hit the brakes like told. I left it disconnected just to be sure that it would clear them. I'll test it again in a few hours when it is light out.
Alright, I left the battery disconnected for 18 hours and just ran codes again/. The EGRcode is still stored, but the code 23 for the tps went away. I'm going to check the tps using what was listed above, and check it out. It seems like that could cause my engine rpm spikes thought.
The voltage on the tps sensor should remain steady with no spikes or drops in voltage. If it does that at all, it is bad. You also need to make sure the car is warm, and when you set your idle speed, unhook your i a c and turn the throttle screw till it idle's where you want it. When your i a c is plugged in, it should be fine to drive. I didn't have to wait for the car to learn to idle.
The proper way to check the TPS...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJEGigONelc
Thanks. The one thing I don't understand is "back probing". Did he strip sone of the rubber coading off the wire? What does this mean? And where is the trottle screw?
find the factory tps connector
there you will see the engine harness connector plugged in.
if you poke at the area where the wires enter, you will find that its like a rubber gasket/weather proofing material. Thats because that is what it is.
shove your meter lead up along any one of the wires and eventually you will be touching some metal where the actual wire is crimped to the terminal.
thats back probing,, not the other back probing:evilgrin:
-===============
actuate the trottle cable or linkage in the engine bay.
observe what makes it stop.
find the screw that the linkage leans against when its stopped.
adjust that screw. (although i would not advise touching the adjustment at all until you finsh your work on the tps).
ok,,
so there has to be a reason why we use the terminology "Rheostat" vs "Potentiometer". all of which means another term "variable resistor.
enlighten me.
Code 67 WILL cause arolling idle FWIW.....
http://351winsor.com/joel/Flash_Simul/Code67_Rolling.SWF
Alright, maybe I misinterpreted what that code 67 meant. Anyone know where that plug on our cars is, and heres its suposed to go? I don't even know where to start looking.
For the code 67, make sure the a/c-heater function control switch is in the off position. Can't see where that rolling idle stuff applies to our cars. Besides you don't have a clutch switch.
A variable resister used as a rheostat has a wire to one end of the fixed resister and one to the wiper. It is a current control device.
A variable resister used as a potentiometer has wires to both ends of the fixed resister and to the wiper. This is a voltage divider.
On an automatic trans it is call neutral drive switch. ;)
Doesn't matter this applies to automatic equipped cars as well. I've seen it first hand. R&R the NSS clear code no more rolling idle. The car had no other codes as well...
(http://www.transmissioncenter.org/classi1.gif)
(http://351winsor.com/joel/EEC-IV/Neutral-Extract.jpg)
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,3137.0.html
Thats wierd, because my v6 engine had the engine roll too and that was the factory motor. It never spiked when I tried to stop thought. hmmm.
Prereq for running KOEO:
"Place transmission in park or neutral.
Set parking brake.
Place A/C or heater control to off."
Code 67:
Neutral drive switch is open, or A/C was on during self test.
If the neutral drive switch is not working, you can't start the car.
read the instructions to the link i posted about Therangerstation.com
You can get a code 67 with incorrect voltage.
AOD NSS for starter control, pin 30 gets its ground reading (to id in-neutral state) through the starter solenoid coil and the ground from the solenoid body to the fender apr0n..... the starter doesn't work in any gear position but P or N..... the problem could be in the wiring from the ignition switch to pin 30. In park or neutral it SHOULD see 12 vdc at the pin.
The signal MAY be shorted to ign. on.....
Here's how it's been explained
The wire to the pin may have an open condition.....Would explain the code AND the startup ability....IIRC, this all ties in to the dreaded ignition switch as well....
Let's go back to this......
Can you take the car out of park without a key? More importantly -- without a key and with the ignition in the OFF position?
i remember reading that thinking he was just mistaken.
Yes, I can take the car out of park with the ignition in the off position. Thats what I assumed code 67 was refering to.
I would guess that the pinout to the ECU would then see the car as always being in park/neutral. This can cause the ECU to use the wrong strategy in certain situations.....
Are we even sure that the NSS/NDS is even hooked up? Is it jumpered/bypassed?
I don't think its jumpered or bypasses, I never did anything of the sort. I maycome of as dumb by saying this, but your explanation about the nss being grounded and whatnot, I'm not sure what your talking about. I don't know what pin 30 is, what should I check? I've never tried starting the car in anything but p or n just because, well why would i?
one of the best things you can do right now is poke your head under the hood and watch and observe things to see if something isnt working. get someone to start the car for you and wiggle some harnesses and wires while its running and then retest to see if any new codes show up. just a hunch.
have you resolved the EGR related code yet?
I had a few minutes of daylight today and I used the check engine light to generate codes, and I got a new one.
code 29-Vehicle speed sensor signal voltage is too low.
I really need some help, this car is falling apart, lol
(http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/images/eec04.gif)
The image shows all the pins on your ECU and their respective locations.....
I wouldn't expect anybody who has a driver's license to attempt to start a vehicle in Drive.
Disconnect the ignition coil, get in, put her in D with the parking brake on and attempt to crank? Anything?
That's interesting....
Alright I tested the tps. After testing the signal return wireI got a reading of .02 ohms. This was supposed to be close to 0 as possible, so this seems good. Next I checked the reference voltate(which goes to pin 26) and I got a reading of 5.02 volts. This is good, as its supposed to be close to 5 as possible. THe signal wire voltage is at .84, which is okay, its supposed to be close to 1. And finally when operating the throttle I got a very smooth increase in the voltate begining at a closed throttle, all the way to WOT. The voltage topped out at 4.60 volts, which is good. Its supposed to be close to 4.50 volts. I tested the voltage change during throttle operation twice, just to be sure, and I never got any type of a spike, or drop. So it seems the TPS is good.
Alright, I just not disconnected the coil, but the car in D and turned the key. NOTHING happened, well the dash lights went out, like always, but thats normal. So the nuetral drive switch, whatever its called, is working. I checked it in all operable gears, R, OD, D, and 1 and it did not crank over. Any ideas now?
Is there anything besides the IAC I should try cleaning? I am planning on taking the air intake hose off and cleaning the throttle blade(the disk that opens the more gas you give the car) just ot see if maybe its sticking. I'm begining to think maybe its something mechanical getting hung up, but I could be wrong. Suggestions are welcome. I sprayed the linkage for the throttle, but no change, still works as it always did.
What else could cause the rolling idle? The random spike in rpms?
I just ran KOEO self test on my 84 bird.
With the AC/Heat control in Defrost, AC normal or AC max I get a code 67.
Did you check the AC/Heat control before you ran the self test?
This won't solve your idle problem but it may get a confusion factor out of the way.
your tps voltage looked good,, but the higher the voltage the better from my experience.
less than a volt on the green wire with closed throttle and as close to 5v at wot as possible.
the best ive ever seen is the one on my 20th.
i have .76 at closed throttle adn 4.68 at wot.
i wont install the spare i have,, it will only dial in at .9v closed and 4.3v at wot.
you can use your ohm meter at a parts store and lay two identical tps's side by side and find the best one to buy. you dont need a tps now though,,,
do what was suggested on the hvac issue,, i think you might wanna spray come carb cleaner around the various vac connections **EVERYWHERE** there is one and listen to see if the engine rpm changes. Remember,, the lower / upper intake can leak and cause a surge.
Alright, I will start spraying carb cleaner around and see if I can find somewhere where the engine revs up, or where something is disconnected. The only thing I can think of of hand, is maybe the brake booster is starting to let go. I know on the oldsmobile it caused a vacuum leak when it started to go.
Also, the first time I noticed the high reving was when I put a new battery in. The old one had been py for a few months and I put the the new one in and whenI started it it immediately reved to probably around 2000, maybe a little more. And it stayed there. I shut the car off and turned it back on and it went away. Thats why I kindathink its something electronic, if I turn the car off then back on it'll go away. Is there anything over by the battery, on an 88(driver side) that could be pinched or knocked off? I loooked already, but I thought maybe there was something over there I was just missing.
I had to drive the car today. I took it downtown and carefully waited for something to go wrong, but it never did. When I got home after about an hour, I ran codes again, just because it was already warm, and I figured why not. I am still getting code 67. The sotred codes, those that are sounded off after a single light flash(which i was told means they are stored) were codes 33 and codes 29. What the hell is a vehicle speed sensor? I'n a little bit, I'll check for vacuum leaks, but just wanted to update anyone helping me. :)
I had an idea.. These idle problemshappened after I put the battery in. Is it possible the battery may be defective and not taking a charge so the ecm is speeding up the idle to compensate for the charge? I know, its kind of a longshot, but I thought I would ask. I'll check the voltage on the battery tomorow, but wanted to know if the ecm even had this capability.
yes,, that happens exactly as you explained it however,,it can go two ways.
the alternator has not only the sudden demand of the normal car operational piece parts but it also has to recharge battery that may be nearly dead (dead not being your case but still a good example).
in your case, with a partially bad battery, the alternator is constantly seeing a cell (2v) or perhaps more that are bad.
this could cause the eec to ramp the rpms.
In additon, the other perspective is that one or more of the diodes in the alternator is bad. you may show an alternator putting out about 16vdc but that may be just an indicator that its putting out some AC voltage along with DC. The voltage regulator on the alternator naturally wants to put out AC but is regulated to DC by the AC to DC rectifier. Not only does the regulator regulate the voltage level (ie- makes the choice by design that 14vdc is the max voltage) but it also changes the sine wave to a positive 14vdc but not really a true clean dc signal. Nonetheless, the theory is the battery will filter the remaining ac in the form of some residual heat.
too much AC coming out of an alternator could point the a cycle many people get into ,,they replace one part of the charging system only to have the other part break the new part.
if you change your battery,,you did it for a reason. how this bad battery effected your alternator is usually something people dont even know to consider or even think about. Yes a battery can draw sooo much current off an alternator that all the signs pointed to the battery but yet, the alternator suffered as well. I have seen many instances where the the very basic machines used in advance,,autozone and the like dont really descrinminate all that well with a partially bad alternator. An alternator has to be pretty fugged up to que in a failure.
so yes,, a long winded answer but yes it is possible.
as for your brake booster,, ill bet the majority of us here have a hissing power booser ourselves when we depress the brake,, its something i live with on the white coug. As i mentioned before,, and others have mentioned,, we have seen the TPS cause this problem but when its not the tps then we start looking for vac leaks.
your vehicle speed sensor is on the very end of your transmission housing. What it does is translate the rotation of a small plastic gear spinning at an rpm into a single that falls in the voltage range that can be displayed on your dash. you can spin the shaft of one with a drill and test it out . previous to the speed sensor, there was a round cable that spun around which the end was machined into a triangle or square that fit into the tiny gear assembly in the transmission. it was a real hard driven cable setup like what you would visualize present on on of those old exersise bikes with a speedo.
if you get to the point where you want to shot gun the problem,, i would spend my money on a new voltage regulator since your probably could use one.
another good preventative maint trick is to disconnect every vac line you can get to and spray wd40 in them. there are vac actuated solenoids where you can tug on the line and spray wd40 in those to. the reasons are for lubrication of the moving parts in the various vac actuated piece parts which typically are rubber orings, plastic sleves or bushings and the like. any emissions piece parts needs this done atleast once after all the life of our cars being now over 20 years old. dont forget about the vac lines going to the cruise system which are the lines entering the fender well on the drivers side. dont worry about too much wd40,, the car will spit it out or suck it in whereever it wants and the excess will go on its own into the pcv system.
your interior vac HVAC lines may also have a leak. if all that is working perfect although you said you had little heat, then its a fruitless adventure.
When doing the test, the heater control was definately in the off position.
Anyone know if this rolling idle can be applied to ours cars with a v8 and an auto tranny? Where is the plug? Or where does it plug into?
Could the tfi be casuing the problem?
I answered this already http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showpost.php?p=304898&postcount=24
Okay, you'r right, I'm sorry. After checking it is plugged in, what can I do? I remember I told you I could shift the car without a key(floor shift car) and you asked if it was jumpered or bypassed.. I don't think it is, it doesn't seem to be under the car. Where else could it be, or what else should I check. It would appear this is the problem, and somehow also related to the fast that I can shift it ouf of gear without the key on, I would imagine.. I'm sorry if I sound dumb, I just don't know how to proceed.
Ok, after studying the EVTMs for 84,85,86 and 87 you are correct about ground being applied to ECU pin 30 through the start relay coil and the NSS.
However this only applies to the 2.3 and 3.8 engines.
Pin 30 is not used on the 5.0
The OP says this is an 88 3.8 that has an 87 5.0 installed.
The question is, were the 87 ECU and cable harness transferred to this car?
I don't have an 88 EVTM to check if his ignition switch has wire to pin 30. If it does maybe it should be cut.
softtouch,
The 87 ECU is in the car. The only wires transfered to the car were the ones that run from the ECU out the firewall, across the firewall and plug in at the driver side firewall. Everything seemed to plug right it. What do you mean by cable harness? I can try to look up in my 88 EVTM. Thanks for the trouble of looking it up. :)
I was looking at 5.0 diagrams.
Here are 2 specifically for Mustangs......
88-91
(http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif)
91-93
(http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif)
[SIZE="6"]
The following is for an 86-88 Cougar/Thunderbird 5.0[/SIZE]
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/V8Demon/Car%20Tech/87-50Enginewiring.gif)
Take note of PIN 30 in the very bottom left of the electronic control assembly. Now see the following:
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/V8Demon/Car%20Tech/87-50Chassiswiring.gif)
From what I understand, the chassis wiring SHOULD be the same.....
Looking at all the Cougarbird specific stuff; I can not figure out where pin 30 ties into the charging system.....Anybody got a pic of the ignition switch schematics?
Softtouch, would this mean between the wiring diagram for the 86-88 5.0 and the EVTM that there is a discrepancy? I have the EVTM on hard drive.......on my OTHER PC....
Just to eliminate another possibility, i checked the voltages to the battery. 12.73v with everything off and the car off. 14.73v with the car running. 14.65 with the radio and heater, 14.48 v with the lights radio and heater fan on, 12.67 with the radio heater rear window defrost and the lights. Reving the car with the lights radio and heater on doesn't change the voltage.
So it appears the battery is fine, and the alternator is doing what it should. It appears this pin 30 problem might be the problem. Later on this evening I can look through my EVTM and see if I can find the discrepancy. If it isn't figured out by someone smarter first. lol
V8Demon,
Yes there is a descrepancy.
On the 3.8 start circuit a Y/R wire #376 goes from the ignition switch to the EEC.
On the 5.0 start circuit, no wire.
On the 3.8 EEC, Y/R wire #376 goes through C315 to a diode then a R/LB wire #32 to EEC pin30
No pin 30 is shown on the 5.0 EEC. (did not scan the 5.0 EEC)
That's disturbing. That diagram is specific to our cars....the O2 sensor harness wire colors are TOTALLY different on a Mustang for one.....
JPC647: Is this car Mass Air or speed density now?
What is the ENGINE HARNESS from? Vehicle make and year for the harness?
Softtouch: Does the EVTM show ANYTHING on how the 5.0 ties into the actual ECU via the charging system? I DO have it, but truth be told I'm not too adroit at navigating through it.
*EDIT*
I see it. Go to page 54 in the EVTM. Im gonna hook up the other PC and take a look.
The engine harness is from a 1988 cougar/thunderbird. I think it was a cougar, but I'm not sure. The car, I believe is speed density, its a stock 5.0 out of an 87 thunderbird, no modifications.
Does this mean I have an extra wire connected to the ECU? and if so, any idea under what conditions it would make a difference? The idle doesn't always stumble, just sometimes. Any reason for this?
I looked in my EVTM, I'm really not sure what to look for, anyone else know? I'm confused here in a bunch of diagrams.
Is there a wire currently running to PIN 30 on your ECU?
I can't really tell. I mean made the kick panel loose and tipped it out to look in. Without taking the computer out, and taking the black cap off(which has pr0ngs on both sides that need to be pushed out for the cap to to removed). I don't mind checking, it just isn't something I can do right away.
My question is, if it is wired to pin 30, wouldn't the problem happen all the time? Or is this just to clear the code? I mean the idle hunt doesn't happen all the time, but every time I run codes I get 67. If something is going right to the computer, wouldn't it cause the problem all the time? Does this question make sense? What is this causing to happen? I'm confused, I will try to check the computer tomorrow though.
Not necessarily. The short/open circuit COULD be intermittent. The VSS may not be the root of your idle issue, but you should eliminate it from the list of possibilities.... If it were me, I'd pull that ECU out and have a look at the 60 pin connector.
pin 60? I thought pin 30 was the one in question?
The connector itself has 60 total pins and is called the 60 PIN connector.
Alright, I retested codes, and got code 29 tonight. That is the Vehicle Speed Sensor issue. After having a near accident today because the car revved up randomly, I pulled the ecu harness wires off of the ecm. I have attached pictures of what I see. I believe there is infact, a Wire connected to pin 30. I included the diagram of the 60 pin connector someone else previously posted, just for reference. It appears a brown with white stripe wire is going to pin 30. Match up the plastic tabs on the picture I took, to the one of the diagram for reference.
Should I cut it? Suggestions now?
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr148/jpc647/eec04.gif)
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr148/jpc647/103_1704.jpg)
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr148/jpc647/103_1706.jpg)
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr148/jpc647/103_1705.jpg)
bump?
Disconnect it at the pin and cover it with a wire nut. Start her up and go for a drive. Clear the memory and see if the code comes back or not.
I can't get the pin to release from the big 60 pin connector. Is there a trick to removing the pin?
The red part has to come out before you can unpin that brown wire.
How it comes out, I can't say...I've never taken one of those apart.
I'd guess snipping it isn't an option... :hick:
knowing the red part comes out made the job much easier. I got the wire out, but I'm still getting the same code...
Yes. The code is not "in memory" its displayed before the single flash of the check engine light, indicating its a current problem, not a problem that was stored in memory.
Now I removed that wire and have been driving the car around today to and from work, and nothing seems to be different or not working. The car hasn't necessarily lunged forward, but the problem is pretty sporadic anyway. Should I leave it disconnected?
I would for a few days at the very least .
I have driven the car about 50 miles now without pin 60 connected, I have not really noticed any difference. I cleaned out the EGR valve last night and spread apart the pins on the "Salt and Pepper shakers" to try and fix the rolling idle. I didn't notice it this morning. I'll leave it out for a couple of days longer.
I just don't understand how a wire that isn't supposed to be there is there, that harness came out of an 88 Thunderbird with a 5.0. I bought the whole harness and computer from a junkyard and installed it. Nothing on the computer harness is from the 1988 v6. The engine is an 87 tbird 5.0, but the harness is an 88. I think maybe we were looking at things the wrong way?
Alright, well I've driven around for a while without the wire connected and I have not noticed any difference. Should I reconnect the wire and see if the problem or problems come back? Any suggestions?
Also, is there any way for the code 67 that I'm getting that would make the car think the AC is on all the time, when it isn't? I mean i can change the heat flow settings from vent to floor to mix, etc, and it changes. It's warm air too. Is there anything that could be unplugged or disconnected or broken or whatnot.
Wow, my car has been doing that for years. So that's what a rolling idle is.
Quick question: if we do an HO conversion from a stock auto computer to a manual Mustang computer (e.g. DA1) does this become a non-issue?
Alright, after removing pin 30, and cleaning out the EGR valve, the random engine throttle up while driving seemed to go away. Well, while driving the the rain yesterday, it happened, but not as bad as before. It doesn't seem to jerk forward when I'm stopped, but now it seems like if I let off the throttle, the car doesn't realize this right away, and even when the pedal returns to its home position the car is still moving like I never lifted off. It does it for about 5-6 seconds and then it goes to normal.
Now what sensor controls this? The mechanical throttle cable is not sticking, as I've checked this several times. What sensor(at the risk of sounding like an idiot) controls or reads the imput depending on where the pedal is? Is it only the TPS?
Could the cruise control be malfunctioning? Maybe something is shorted out and the car thinks temporarily its "resuming" a pre set speed? Where can I disconnect the cruise control, without tampering with anything else? It hasn't worked in a couple years, I think its because of the disk in the steering wheel not making full contact, as sometimes the horn doesn't work just right.
No. You will have to compensate for the neutral drive switch or work your way around it.
You may also have issues with the 02 sensors..... http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showpost.php?p=323274&postcount=15
Two things Paul
Thank you! And you might want to double check the o2 sensor harness theory. While correct for a Mustang, pin 30 does not go to the o2 sensor harness plug on a Cougar. The black connector pinout on my car (88 XR7) does not match the black connector pinout you posted. I presume you got that from very useful? I've been bit a few times trying to go off those Mustang diagrams.
My car sufferd from the rolling idle (yes past tense!) my setup is much different from the OP's. I'm running an A9L on a gt40 headed car with an auto :p, I know. Mine would hunt so bad that I couldn't let the car idle to heat up in the winter or leave it running during a quick stop into a gas station, sometimes while in gear at a stoplight it would hunt so bad and kill itself if you didn't put your foot on the gas. After reading your post with the link to Joel's video I did some investigating. Pin 30's wire on the 60 pin goes out under the hood and across to the black and grey connectors by the booster. In the black connector you will find the brown/white wire. On the other side it changes color to the red/blue wire that goes down to the transmission that then turns into the white pink wire that makes its way back to the starter soleniod. I pulled the brown/white wire out from the black engine harness connector at the booster, I then started the car and waited for it start hunting (usually after its warmed up), when it started hunting I jumpered it to the sig rtn wire in the diagnostic connector. While my car didn't respond as quick as Joel's video it did smooth out to a nice solid idle. To test I then pulled the wire right back out and it started the rolling idle again. Reinserting the wire brought the idle back to a solid 700ish. Now with my auto I now run into the lack of high park idle and no idle compensation when dropping into gear. But these are issues that anyone running a standerd eec in an auto car will have. Before just pulling it into gear would cause the engine to surge and die if you didn't catch the gas peddle soon enough. Now it surges slightly but does not die, and that I am happy with. So thanks again for that video, I'll have to tell Joel that it fixed my car. Remember he helped me way back when to find the burnt sig rtn circuit in the A9L eec that no doubt was caused by a long crank in an auto car before I got it. (it was DOA to me)
On a side note the rolling idle seems to be caused by the eec adjusting ignition advance, with the IAC unplugged my car still suffered from the rolling idle.
Good to know there is a difference there.
Joel helped me with an O2 sensor issue as well a while back. ;)
Now unpining of that wire never allowed the code to go away. Does anyone have any other suggestions? I can't start the car in gear, but why am I getting this code? Still getting this EGR code as well, but thats in another thread now.
Also, you guys stated joel has helped you guys out before, how do I contact him? He might know where I need to make a jumper in my car.
Does your car have EATC or manual A/C control?
Manual AC control. The normal one, with the slider bars. Its not on, its slid all the way over to off when I run the test.
Try disconnecting EEC pin 10. This is the wire that tells the EEC that the A/C is on.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/board,20.0.html
Thank you.
From the Ford shop manual, the correct way to reset the error codes stored in the EEC memory:
"1. Initiate KOEO Self-Test.
2. Remove jumper from the Self-Test input terminal as soon as the first service code is received (even if an 11 is the first code)
3. Rerun Self-Test with jumper to verify service codes have been erased."
The codes are stored in the KAM (Keep Alive Memory). Disconnecting the battery resets all of the KAM including tables the EEC has stored there that can cause erratic idling until the EEC can reestablish the tables.
There are no stored codes that this does not reset.
As to your stored memory code 33. You never mention running the KOER self tests. Code 33 is an engine running type error and if it only shows up as a memory code implies it is intermittent.
The 88 3.8L V6 is a different animal from all the previous years and I don't have any 88 documentation. As I recall from a thread awhile back the 88 3.8L has a pressure feed-back EGR sensing setup instead of the position sensor that the rest of these cars use.
Just something to think about.
Try disconnecting the vacuum hose from the EGR valve and put a vacuum gauge on the hose. Run KOER and you should see vacuum when the self-test tries to test the EGR.
About unused wires in the EEC 60 pin connector.
Comparing the 86 and 87 EVTM's, the 86 shows several pins wires that go nowhere. Some just say n.c. for no connection and some go to a connector with no wire on the other side of the connector. The 87 just doesn't show these pin numbers.
I'm thinking these wires may still be in the 87 60 pin connector but they just cleaned up the diagram by leaving them off.
The 86 EVTM shows wires to nowhere on pins 5,6,30 and 34.
If these wires go to a connector that was in the 88 3.8L maybe there is something hooked them that shouldn't be.
Enough of my rambling.
yep, thats what it says basically.
Although ive said unhooking the batt isnt the right way, many say it is.
just yank out the jumper wire when codes start to dump and they will be cleared.
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr148/jpc647/103_1851.jpg)
The wire in the above picture, going into the EGR valve on the little nipple, should this have vacuum/Pressure? When?
If you are talking about the vacuum line, it should have vacuum when the EEC activates the EGR solenoid.
Pull off the vacuum line and put a vacuum gauge on it. Run the KOER test and you should see vacuum when it tries to test the EGR.
Okay... my next question, under what cirspoogestances does the EEC command the EGR to open?
More than you ever wanted to know about the EEC.
Scan down through it and find the chart that answers your question.
http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=3