Technical => Engine Swapping => Topic started by: Romeo2k on April 06, 2009, 08:39:23 PM
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: Romeo2k on April 06, 2009, 08:39:23 PM
Alright so the previous sale of our caravan with the bad trans fell through. I've now been offered a 351 out of a 1992 Bronco for the van.
What do you guys think?
Would this even work in an 84 T-Bird? (Upgrading from a 3.8).
Or should i just hold out for a 302 like planned?
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: 20thanniver-ls on April 06, 2009, 08:45:44 PM
If it fits, I say go for it:burnout: May have to change upper/lower intakes though
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: Haystack on April 06, 2009, 08:50:01 PM
there are very few good intake choices unless you go with a carb style fuel injection. Unless you want to go carb, I would stick to a 5.0.
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: 20thanniver-ls on April 06, 2009, 09:07:40 PM
Going carbed would make the swap a lot easier though...
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: Romeo2k on April 06, 2009, 09:11:39 PM
Less power with a carb right? Dont forget~I have a 3.8 currently lol
As long as it can be upgraded at any time in the future, Im fine with that.
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: 20thanniver-ls on April 06, 2009, 09:19:26 PM
You can buy 351 swap kits, and I'm not sure about the carb giving less power, someone more knowledgeable on that subject could tell you more
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: Romeo2k on April 06, 2009, 09:33:51 PM
Found this: http://www3.telus.net/cbradley/Engine_Specifications.html
The 87 5.8 w/ 4bbl actually has the same power as the mpfi versions (Except for the 92 and 93?)
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: 83-88T-Bird Guy on April 07, 2009, 07:49:19 AM
Carbs make the same power as F.I. I converted my 84 T-Bird w/CFI 302 to carb. I used the same throttle cable. I just had to make the 40 lb. F.I. pump to deliver 6 lbs of pressure at the carb. I bought some brass pieces at the hardware store. See pics below...
The fuel comes from the 40 psi in-tank pump ,(I put a 88 Turbo Coupe gas tank on the '84) shoots across the "T" brass block and then returned to the tank. The smaller return line creates the perfect restiction to produce 6.5 lbs of fuel pressure at the carb.
Note: Ignore the arrow on the top of the block. The fuel comes from the tank into the top and shoots across the block then makes a 180 degree turn and back to the pump.
I used a Duraspark distributer and then wired up a GM H.E.I. 4 pin module that works with the stock F.I. coil.
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: massCougarxr7 on April 07, 2009, 08:55:21 AM
wow thats creative!!!!! not trying to hijack the thread, my buddy is going to buy a 97 f150, the seller told him it had a 351 cleveland, with a 5.0 h.o. intake .... is this possible?????? Too bad you didnt live close to me Romeo........ 180 bucks gets complete ho motor........anytime, you pulll it...
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 07, 2009, 09:06:26 AM
Quote from: massCougarxr7;266252
wow thats creative!!!!! not trying to hijack the thread, my buddy is going to buy a 97 f150, the seller told him it had a 351 cleveland, with a 5.0 h.o. intake .... is this possible??????
Full of shiznit...
Guess you didn't read what I posted in the 5.8 conversion thread(way down there, all of two threads)... Basically if you'll be chasing a dozen or more small items, especially if you try to stick with EFI... Most of the others are saying "yeah go for it", but no doubt several ain't got a clue what's involved... I wouldn't recommend it if you don't have a cheap source for the parts needed, or have a good idea how to rewire it, especially if you go with EFI
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;265671
If you already have a 5.0 in the car a 351 is a direct bolt in(otherwise you're going to need motor mounts with the 3.8 or 2.3)... This is assuming you have a double sump pan already on the larger engine, as the 5.0 pan will not fit a 5.8... The exhaust(headers) and engine brackets are different due to the 5.8 being taller... I believe the 5.0 alternator bracket can be used, but the P/S-A/C bracket is different...Also will need to verify which rotation water pump it uses, the Fox bodied cars all use a reverse rotation pump, at least from '86-up... You'll need 351 swap headers and Stang 5.0 H pipe with a full dual system, if you expect to get any power out of it...
Intake is the big issue, except for the '93-'95 Lightning setup(and it's very close), no stock truck intake will fit under the Bird/Coug hood... Doesn't really matter, the 5.8 truck intake is a POS(again Lightning excepted) for making power past 4000 RPM.... Depending on engine components, you'll likely need a Mass Air 5.0 EEC... Assuming a stockish 5.8, I suppose you could use a MAF truck EEC from '94-'96, but like a 5.0 MAF EEC, there will be modifications necessary to your original wiring harness...
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: odie12372 on April 10, 2009, 02:54:49 PM
With the 5.8L Conversion Is there a 5.8L EFI that will be a direct fit...
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: Beau on April 10, 2009, 03:29:41 PM
Quote from: odie12372;266758
With the 5.8L Conversion Is there a 5.8L EFI that will be a direct fit...
Did you read the first post before yours?
As far as a '97 F-150 with a Cleveland motor...lol, they ain't made Clevelands since well before I was born, and I'm over 30.
As far as 351 engines, none were ever offered in a '97 anyway, except for F250/F350, and most buyers then opted for either the diesel, or the 460...
Absolutely NO 351 of any bred is a true "drop in" ordeal... If you go efi, be prepared to spend easily over a grand. Carb is cheaper, but I have yet to see or hear of any carb motor making power equal to an efi set up, while maintaing the streetability, and cold weather performance..etc.
Prove me otherwise if you feel I'm wrong. (I also don't mean full on race cars, because we don't (usually) drive said race cars on the street..) lol
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: odie12372 on April 10, 2009, 03:32:25 PM
I had one other question.... Is all the 5.8L High Out put?
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: Beau on April 10, 2009, 03:46:36 PM
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: odie12372 on April 10, 2009, 08:26:57 PM
Well I really would prefer to keep the car efi If at all possible....but I want the High Output... Would the Intake off a 5.0 HO work?
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 10, 2009, 08:28:04 PM
Quote from: odie12372;266785
Well I really would prefer to keep the car efi If at all possible....but I want the High Output... Would the Intake off a 5.0 HO work?
Nope, a 351 is taller and wider... The only 5.0 parts that interchange with a 5.0 are the heads(except for Lightning, 351s generally has the same E7 as HO 5.0), front cover, cam and lifters, but only the '94-'95 351s use a roller cam...
The only EFI 351 that could even remotely be considered a direct swap, would be one from a '93-'95 F-150 Lightning and I couldn't find one to swap in my Tbird 10 years ago... Did find a complete drive train from one for $3600, but I had no use for the huge E4OD tranny or the rear end... Plus it was going to have to be shipped which was the deal breaker... Five or six years later I bought a complete '93 Lightning for not much more that that engine, tranny and rear was going to cost shipped...
Even if complete, those will require a different throttle body(or the lever reversed, easier said than done), Fox oil pan and wiring changes to accommodate the EEC... This assumes you get and use the Lightning accessories...
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: Haystack on April 10, 2009, 08:33:24 PM
Does anyone even read anything anymore? Should we get pictures?
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: odie12372 on April 10, 2009, 08:42:15 PM
Well I called a junk yard here... They want $600.00 For a 96 f-250 351w...
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: HAVI on April 10, 2009, 10:54:02 PM
http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/body_intake_adapters.html Ask these guys if their intake adapter will allow a 5.0 EFI setup to work on a 351W. I know they're more carb oriented, but wouldn't hurt to ask. Just my $.02
Title: addition to post #12
Post by: wnt2gofst on April 10, 2009, 10:59:20 PM
1974 was the last year for the 351 cleveland. They kept the engine about the same after that but the emissions bullsh*t killed the power/torque and from then on it was called a modified
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 10, 2009, 11:06:13 PM
The 5.0 EFI intake bolts on same as a carb intake... I can't see paying the price for those and bolting on a POS HO intake though... At the minimum I'd use an Explorer intake... Issue on either, will it fit under the hood...
Quote from: wnt2gofst;266809
and from then on it was called a modified
From '75-'80 the 351 Cleveland headed engines(modified) were built in the taller 400 block, which used the big block bellhousing bolt pattern... They could be built to perform, but a 400 gave 50 more cubes in an exact same size package... And if you going for cubes no need to stop there, 460 is the way to go...
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: HAVI on April 10, 2009, 11:09:32 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;266814
The 5.0 EFI intake bolts on same as a carb intake... I can't see paying the price for those and bolting on a POS HO intake though... At the minimum I'd use an Explorer intake... Issue on either, will it fit under the hood...
I personally wouldn't go that route either. But if the OP really wanted EFI on a 351W in his car, then that seems the only real way of doing it without breaking the bank on a Megasquirt. I think?
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 10, 2009, 11:24:39 PM
Quote from: HAVI;266815
that seems the only real way of doing it without breaking the bank on a Megasquirt. I think?
If one were lucky, could find a 5.8 GT40 lower(Lighting & Ford Racing only)reasonable and bolt on a Explorer upper... Again I dunno if it will fit under a stock hood... The GT40 upper on the 5.8 intake just barely clears... A Cobra upper is about 3/4" taller than a GT40...
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: Lightningbird on April 12, 2009, 06:27:51 PM
If this 5.8 has any street manners at all...the truck lower and a powerbox would not be too bad. Port the lower and it could be the cheapest intake available. Also consider the Hurricane and E-Brock elbow can be very cheap and short on torque for the street.
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: Sick88Tbird on May 01, 2009, 04:58:41 PM
I couldn't even come close to finding a Lightning lower for a reasonable price, and when I did (3 times) all deals fell through because they sold to "local" guys.
I ended up porting the living sh*t out of the 5.8 truck lower and buying a BC Broncos adapter($100 shipped to me)to put a stock HO upper on...the 5.8 truck/van lower has a seriously short height...the upper intake is much lower than the lightning...I'm still antiting hood clearance issues. I wouldn't recommed this method if you're trying to build something really serious or if you don't have access to the necessary tools/knowledge to really hog one of those lower intakes out.
Also, if using the 5.8 truck/van lower, there is no provision for the PCV, so you'll have to use the passenger side stamped steel valve cover (with PCV hole) on the driver side to clear everything.
I plan on running my set-up with SD....if the vacuum signal is right (proper cam selection) it shouldn't have any major drivability issues. The super secret cam I bought for my 5.8 is a flat-tappet equivalent to the lightning cam...plus a little...it is specifically for SD.
I also plan to run all the stock 5.0 Bird accessory brackets on it, there will be no problem with the alt. bracket (although the truck/van bracket looks like it'll place the alternator lower), but I'll have to modify the PS/AC bracket to reach the water pump studs, it'll bolt to the head with no problem.
I've seen a lot of people spend $400+ on a set of fuel rails for 5.8's...you can just take a set of 5.0 rails and, using a razor blade, cut through the rubber outter hose and then the inner plastic hose and replace them with the proper 5/16" fuel injection hose available from any parts store...also, use high pressure hose clamps.
Good luck, Don
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: badbird84 on May 19, 2009, 01:30:33 AM
I helped do a 351 swap last summer into a fox stang. Lots of small issues as things should fit but do not. One myth is that you can use a oil pan from a van or 4X4. It fit but the motor would have to be shim up to clear the cross member. easier and not expensive oil pan from Ford motorsorts fit. The wiring to switch to a carb was a c but can be done with help from internet and basic knowledge. If you have good backyard skills and time it is a good sleeper car. Roger
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: thunderjet302 on May 20, 2009, 03:00:27 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;270073
I couldn't even come close to finding a Lightning lower for a reasonable price, and when I did (3 times) all deals fell through because they sold to "local" guys.
I ended up porting the living sh*t out of the 5.8 truck lower and buying a BC Broncos adapter($100 shipped to me)to put a stock HO upper on...the 5.8 truck/van lower has a seriously short height...the upper intake is much lower than the lightning...I'm still antiting hood clearance issues. I wouldn't recommed this method if you're trying to build something really serious or if you don't have access to the necessary tools/knowledge to really hog one of those lower intakes out.
Also, if using the 5.8 truck/van lower, there is no provision for the PCV, so you'll have to use the passenger side stamped steel valve cover (with PCV hole) on the driver side to clear everything.
I plan on running my set-up with SD....if the vacuum signal is right (proper cam selection) it shouldn't have any major drivability issues. The super secret cam I bought for my 5.8 is a flat-tappet equivalent to the lightning cam...plus a little...it is specifically for SD.
I also plan to run all the stock 5.0 Bird accessory brackets on it, there will be no problem with the alt. bracket (although the truck/van bracket looks like it'll place the alternator lower), but I'll have to modify the PS/AC bracket to reach the water pump studs, it'll bolt to the head with no problem.
I've seen a lot of people spend $400+ on a set of fuel rails for 5.8's...you can just take a set of 5.0 rails and, using a razor blade, cut through the rubber outter hose and then the inner plastic hose and replace them with the proper 5/16" fuel injection hose available from any parts store...also, use high pressure hose clamps.
Good luck, Don
Depending on head selection you may run out of injector (19 lb) with SD. My 306 hits pretty close to 100% duty cycle on the 19s above 4000 rpm at 40 psi which is why I'll be upgrading to 24s soon. Plus a MAF conversion is stupid easy to do. It took me all of a hour and a half to do ;)
Title: 351 in a T-Bird?
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 02, 2009, 03:10:34 PM
Just got mine done, runs amazing, see my thread in this section.