I went and bought a new radiator and started searching the Local Junk yards for parts cars. Low and behold I found an 87 and an 88 TC sitting side by side at a place up the road. I found that both cars were somewhat complete. One ran good. He was able to even start it for me. Good to know if I need the motor it is there. I realize these cars have IHI turbos which from what I have read is a downgrade but how much of a downgrade? I was looking for about 18 pounds of boost from the old Garrett turbo. I read that the IHI can do that but that is about it. What is the diference in spool times and low end? I have never looked at one of these. I have already bought the turbo because it was Kinda a package deal. I got the turbo, intercooler, hood, hinges (86 xr7 has a hood prop, theses have springs :D ), brackets, hoses, clamps and bolts for $175. I figure the hood and intercooler was worth that. Is the turbo worth putting on my car? that is the question. Also One of the cars has a Tremek T-5 in it. He said I could have the trans with the bell, clutch, flywheel, pedal assembly, shifter, and all the workings for the swap for $250. sounds like a helluvadeal to me. These cars have a lot of parts and they are due for the crusher in a few months, any requests?
If I remember correctly 18psi is maxed out for an IHI. Spool times I can't help you on I've only had a t-3 or t-3/t-4. Do either of them have a full set of snowflake wheels. Those would be nice to have. Where are you located.
The IHI spools up a little quicker, but also "runs out" quicker in the top end. I swapped a T3 into my '87 and enjoyed it much more, but the IHI is still very satisfying.
do either fo the cars have an auto trans in it? Where is this yard?
Yeah thats what I have read is that it can make about 18 psi and that is it. I was going to shoot for 15 for my fist go on this car, I think I will put it on and start getting all the bugs worked out first. Then go back to the Garrett later when I am ready for upgrades. I dont know about the wheels. they are not on the car but he may have them. One of them does have the auto in it and he said he will gaurantee it is good. Said he drove it in there. The yard is in Findlay ohio. I did want to ask though. I read that the 87 turbo coupe with a five speed made 190 hp. Since I have the turbo, intercooler and hood that will pretty much give me the same set up right? But I also heard the auto only made 150 which was detuned by the computer by the use of the boost solonoid. With that being said I have a C-3 in my car. I do plan to do that T-5 swap this winter. Should I grab the ECM out of the manual car and what kind of ponies will I make with this setup on my current car? 86 cat xr7. makes sense to me that my car non intercooled was set up to make 145. adding the intercooler and a little extra boost would get there. BTW I will not be using the boost control sol on the 86.
I tell you to grab the Large VAM if you don't have it. Then make sure you have Brown top 35lbs/hr injectors. I would telll you to grab the ECM out of the car. You might need to repin and even add a few wires with the Newer ECU. You can get that info on turboford.org I reall love the hood it looks great, but it only really effective at higher speeds. So for best results I suggest you front mount the Factory Top mount unit. Just takes a little piping and some time to work it all out. Do lots of research to find what is best for your power goals.
Do I have to have the new ecm for the large vam. Honestly I dont want to get into to much work for minimal gains because in the end I do plan on going MAF. I was just grabbing this top mount intercooler for now because I found the hood and all, together and so cheap. Like I said just want to get it running and get the bugs out, probly then go T-5 swap, Next on the list will be front mount with a rotated upper. Likely to be done all at the same time as the turbo swap and cam. Thanks for the info though. I have been doing a ton of reading on these cars and trying to figure out which direction to go.
The ECU isn't required for the VAM up size. I've been running the Large VAM with my PC1 ECU for many years now. Runs great and no problems or codes. I know the PC1 calls for the small VAM but sometimes you just gotta do what you feel is best.
I have a full set with center caps
Sweet. I will grab the big vam and the ECU out of the T-5 car. Will wait on the ECU change for a while. Question is still unanswered of how they "detune" the auto car. Will I need the ECU to get the full power, or will it not matter since I have and older car without the boost sol? and btw, Yes I do have the brown top injectors. I also wanted to ask. I put the radiator in my car and got that all strait. My temp gauge does not work but the fan does cycle on and off. Does it have different sending units it uses or do I have an electrical problem inside the car?
the boost sol only lets the auto car build up i think 6psi?? that and the comp is what does it. Changed them on my dads auto when we did that 5 speed swap, and she screams now
What exactly do you mean by the comp? Like I said I wont use the sol, I will put a manual controller in and set it to about 15 psi. That should get it to run. Poor thing is sad right now, locked up turbo and all.
I do believe that he means the comp= the computer. The BCS=boost control selenoid that does control the boost so if you have it unhooked then it won't limit your boost. The only other thing I know that the puter does is change the timing tables. Then the newer the puter the faster the processor.
AFIK
all EEC-IV processors run at 15Mhz...
OK so maybe it has a better prog that does the same job quicker. I always understood it as the newer units worked faster and are faster to respond to changes. That is how they always seem to explain it over at Turboford.org. Thought that was a easy way to sum it up. I guess not.
threw the 5 speed comp in my dads auto car without the BCS just that made a difference
not a huge one, but it did make some difference
Hey superdave where are you located? Just wondering -- I live 15 minutes southwest of Findlay.
I live off the south side of main street on east lima street. we will have to get together sometime and talk shop. I going to be putting on the new turbo soon.
So still, what is the big difference in the 86 and 87. it rates 155 on the bird in 86 and 190 in 87. now excuse me for being a moron but that is 35 more ponies with a lesser turbo. I was under the impression that the rest of the motor was the same. In 86 the bird had 10 more hp than the cat but in 87 it had 40 more. Please explain?
The main difference other than the turbo was the top-mount intercooler. I'm not sure how much of an increase it gave the latemodel TC's, but it was definitely a good boost. There were other subtle things as well, like a slightly larger VAM. The motor is in fact the same, although in '87 Ford went to a slightly shorter upper intake for some reason?... I can't really think of any other differences at this time. Maybe someone will chime in...
I think the early ones (pre 87) ran at 6 or 8mhz.
take a look at the boost settings for both 86 and 87-88. I bet you will see that the older cars were set lower that the newer inter cooled setup. The whole Idea is colder air means less chance of detonation. Witch in turn means you can run higher boost levels. Then you have a smaller turbo witch should help get into boost even quicker. I do believe they used the shorter intake to help hood clearence with the Air funnel. Then that calls for a notched V.C. even though I've used it with both short and tall intake.
Sweet, I had that Idea in my head about the intercooler but I thought the earlier T-Birds had the intercooler and hood. Did not know for sure. I understand that the intercooler is worth a lot from the other cars I have worked on. This is not my first one just my first ford. I thank you all very much for your input and knowlege. I am going in the morning to pick up my parts and get stuff together. I hope to have the ol' cat screaming soon. I have a pile of questions that will end up in other posts. just a quick list. My temp gauge dont work< door locks no work, power windows dont work, I cant even lock the drivers side door, my drivers seat wont go back, my door panels are falling apart, the window seals are , mirrors dont work and are hazed, paint sucks , wheels suck, and ther is a lot of noise in the car including a lot of grinding and dry bearing sounds. and oh yeah I dont have a place to work on it. So I will be giving updates and moving forward one step at a time. Maybe CJ next year. lol
Only trying to contribute to this thread, but I question the validity in this statement above.
I have a non intercooled 86 TC (5spd - so that might be the difference here) that I recently purchased and unless the guage is wrong it frequently pegs the 15lb marker on the factory dash display in cooler weather conditions (morning) . Definatly swings well pass 10lbs easy during the day probably 13-14lbs and the car is stone stock except for a blown out factory ler.
:headbang:
My source of info is the '80-'87 Probst EEC Manual which only mentions 15Mhz... Would stand to reason the early ones do possibly run slower, but I'd be willing to bet all EEC-IV SEFI processors are 15Mhz...
Is stated EEC-IV computers use the Intel 8061 16 bit processor and 8361 memory chip... I don't have anything on hand earlier than maybe a '86 HO LSC EEC... Maybe someone would like to open a earlier one and check the ICs???
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Well apparently the ole boy (Probst) is holding out on us... Forgot I have a batch fire '85 F-150 EFI EEC with a GV code(no '86 LSC though)... The Processor in it is a 6126A and memory is 6128B, the crystal that determines processing speed is a 12Mhz... So without a doubt, there are slower versions... Also the layout is nothing like pictured in the book, which has different chips(size wise) than the ICs he states are used and pictured seperatly...
Off to open a 2.3L '87 Stang EFI processor...
87-88 had different intake, turbo, had the intercooler, differnert bcs, computers, and big vam I think thats about it. thats where the power difference comes from
The 87-88TC ECU's did run a faster processor speed than the other 2.3T's. They ran twice the processing speed of the 83-86 ECU's.
The SVO ECU's (PE) aside, the 87-88 TC's also had the most aggressive fuel and timing maps of any of the 2.3T's. The auto cars had a more aggresive timing map than the manual cars as well.
The reason they were able to make the maps more aggressive on the 87-88 cars was the IC. The cooler air charge was what allowed the timing to be advanced more aggressively. The 83-86 ECUs were much more conservative (slightly richer fuel map, and more conservative timing curve). Had they spec'ed the same turbo on the 87-88TC's as they had the SVOs, the overall power output would have surpassed that of the SVO, but they chose to opt for a quicker spooling unit to help get the heavier car moving. Coupled with everything, the tune was the primary reason the 87-88 TC's had a higher power output over the earlier ones, even with the smaller turbo.
I ran my XR-7 with an engine with 9.0:1 compression, no IC, 14* timing, big exhaust and 16-17 boost on the PC-1 ECU (85.5-86TC) and it never made a peep due to the (slightly rich) fuel curve.
On the boost issue, save for maybe the 85.5-86TC's (manual), the max boost on the non-IC TC's from the factory was 11#. The Merkur XR4's (also non-intercooled) also ran 15# boost on the manual cars from the factory as well.
Yeah chuck set them straight. I knew I read that the newer proceesors were faster and I knew the IC cars ran higher boost. As for a 18 year old car running higher than factory boost setting, well it is 18years old and had plenty of time for a previous owner to play with it.
WoW, very good info. I will just go ahead and get the big VAM and the ECU. I got everything else may as well take it all.
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ipsd - Being the internet I'm not quite sure hot to interpret your comment in bold above or your last post about 18 year old car and shutting them down.
Chuck has obviously built quite the library of factual information, however he did state that "save for" the manual cars which tells me regardless of IC or non-IC that the 86 and older still made more than 11lbs - I don't know if that was ever a non proven issue with you or not. I believe the subject is auto cars here which I may have confused the thread with since mine is a manual (sorry). My car has not been monkeyed around with and is all stock (except the blown out factory ler) and if your comment was directed at any falsification toward me I assure you it's true info. It makes over 11lbs easy.
Thanks for the info Chuck W !
I guess a remaining question here might be: What was the difference rated between the older non IC Auto / Manual vs the newer IC units. I still see that as being unclear, were the
manual pre 87 cars still rated that low? Jesus, I need to update processors and VAM. :)
well the question was a combo of both. 'ets recap what I want. I have an 86 auto car that will some day be a stick. I am putting in an 87 turbo, ic,and hood. likely to put in the big vam. as stated before and asking the question what is the difference that made the stick car have so much more power. 150 in 86 and 190 in 87. the question was do I need the 87 computer and which one (auto or manual)? from what I have read here in all of this wonderfull information, looks like the auto computer would be the best to go with because of the more aggresive timing and fuel maps. just a little confused on why if the auto had a more aggressive tune, then why did the stick make so much more power. was it just highr boost? Dont seem to me you will make much more with the IHI. And also, would it be a true statement to say that the TC had no IC before 87?
Autos typically rob the engine of more power in comparision to a 5 speed. Pretty well known fact regardless of type of car. I used to have a 4 speed Fairmont with a I-6 that would dog out a I-6 auto 'mont.
I'll let the experts reply for specifics on the rest.
Yes I do realize the auto uses a great deal mor hp percentage than a manual but I thought we were talking in Crank hp, not rwhp. someone please clarify that for me. My girlfriend drive a 3G eclipse gt auto car and I had a gts five speed. I could pulll three cars on here before getting into third. Hence why I say that I will eventually to the T5 swap. Now. Which computer for my setup Chuck?
To add to the discussion. The '86 has a max boost of 15 psi. If converting a pre 87/88, I recommend the LA3. I swapped it into my '86 along with the large VAM and have a much better running engine and better idle control. No dyno comparison but seems to pull better. I would not do the swap without the larger VAM, you'll run richer with the smaller VAM. As a side benefit, my highway mileage improved a bit on a recent 350 mile drive. Best PC1, 30-31 mpg, with the conversion, 34 MPG. I also wired in IAT, VSS, and BOO.
If you re-read my statement...
Other than those, the 83-85 non-IC cars all ran 11# boost, regardless of auto or manual. The ECU's also could care less what trans was behind the engine until 87.
The '87-'88 5 speed ECU could care less as well, which is why a A4LD won't shift into O/D or lockup with a manual computer(Yes guys, Chuck is fully aware of this) ...
I did install a '89 Stang 2.3 A4LD computer in a '87 5 speed, ran fine, but threw a code cause it couldn't find the lockup solenoid(actually ran noticeably better[smoother], so became a permanent change).. What I did to fool it, was connect a lamp between the lockup signal out on the EEC to a #1895 bulb that was connected to the EEC power source... No more code and the bulb lit when crusing, because the EEC thought it was in lockup...
Well I got all my parts today. should be a fairly easy install. one thing I did not ask before. I know I have to change some water lines but what about the exhaust. Is the distance from the turbo to the down elbo the same? If I have to mod the exhaust I may as well grab a header. Oh well. Hey my cat has NOSTRILLS! lol
Chuck, I read your statement correctly the first time and added to it.