I bought a 460ci crate motor with 16,000 miles and tranny out of a econoline 350 sleeper\hauler van for $300 i was told it can fit in my 88 xr7, i just wanted to know how much will have to be done to swap these motors....shorter driveshaft ect....Thanks !
I would say start with an aftermarket K-member for header clearance and motor mounts (Mustang)
It ain't exactly a weekend swap...
A few here have done it and I sure will chime in...
Was a guy here locally the had one(stockish 460) in a Stang and it only run mid 13's... My aluminum headed 5.0 TC would out run it...
I dont really care about time, my tranny is really torqy, i just like smoke shows and take off!!!! probobly wont do much 1/4 mile!!!!!! the block is getting bored T least 30 over and a new crankshaft..so it wont be completely stock! ; )
So what's your "torqy tranny" got to do with this engine swap?? Won't bolt up to the 460... If it did, the big block would stir it guts like they were in a blender...
I wouldn't touch a any engine that had only 16,000 miles(assuming it hasn't been damaged)... .030 over bore ain't going to make another 5-6HP on a 460, and the stock cranks are plenty tough...Need to think about heads, intake and exhaust system if you want to make real HP...
If it's this one: (http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/part/full/M-6007-D514FT.JPG) just dump it in and don't open it up.
i dont have the specs on the tranny yet but the truck its coming from is pretty much made to haul stuff so the gear ratios are tall and slow im only worried about blowing out my driveshaft cause for now its going to be my stock one shortend,, and looking for a posi,.,.,.,and my block is definately not that pretty obviously,,, and the covers dont say racing but it does have a holly 4 barrel and the same type of intake manifold,,, but it has the stock exhaust manifolds,, its probobly just a stock replacement motor with some add ons..im in the process of pulling it now....the things a beast!!!!!
a bbf motors are heavy extremely heavy......... ur going to need stiffer front springs unless u plan on bottoming out .id go to a bare minimum of 800lbs front springs and those are going to be very soft for a bbf and c6(assumption) if its a overdrive trans i would start with 900. they sell swap kits for the mustang but it really is a bd idea if u ask most i mean bad mileage in the best case scenario, more nose weight, makes changing spark plugs a trick houdini would cringe at. when u can build a sbf cheaper anyway its smarter.
http://www.460ford.com !!!!!
Its a pretty straight forward swap,just use the mustang swap parts and swap to an aftermarket tubular k member for header cleance.You will have to do some light wiring and modify a few things but it isnt that bad if you have the mechanical skill.
i see you built one before( yes that;s sarcasm)
stock 5.0 tbird springs work fine.
poor mileage? your kidding,right? you don't do this swap for mpg's.
spark plugs are easy to get to.
use the factory k unless it's an 87-88 tc,swap mounts,swap pan, good headers(the hookers suck, i used a set from pro mustang, fit like a glove),alum rad and a good e-fan. an 8.8 works fine.
it's a good swap and it won't dissapoint you.
my trucks got a stroked 460 in it(545ci) and makes 550rwhp 598rwtq through a manual toploader. times are in sig:D
I have done the BBF into Fox swap 3 times. The last was by far the hardest. (87 Turbo Coupe)
While I will say the "cool" factor is nice, the "I can't drive it on the freeway" factor sucks.
Will I do it again? Hell no. Not with 700 HP Windsors too common now.
That being said: That 87-88 k-frame will work, however you are on your own to make motor mounts. I made solids for my 87 TC.
The D5 exhaust manifolds will work if you want to save hundreds of dollars.
If you lower the k-frame with spacers, you can avoid the tranny hitting the floor pan while at the same time giving more hood to air cleaner clearance.
Front 87-88 T.C. coil springs work fine.
Lots more info on http://www.460ford.com as posted above.
My 87 TC w 460 and my first 460 swap (83 T-Bird built in 1993):
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s3/83-88T-BirdGuy/RightfrontshotPark.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s3/83-88T-BirdGuy/GrayBirdwfuji2.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s3/83-88T-BirdGuy/GrayBird9Engine.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s3/83-88T-BirdGuy/Elliottopofengineshot.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s3/83-88T-BirdGuy/Elliotw4602.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s3/83-88T-BirdGuy/GrayBird10Engine.jpg)
love the 385 series big blocks
ill post some pics soon guys... its all in pieces for now,, stripped it down and cleaned it up.... my heads have 5 broken bolts in them and half the thread on one of them is broken off the right head.. not sure if i want to spend $900ea. on two new heads just yet.. id rather juts go boneyard pickin for them for now
i was going to buy a 460 swap kit for a mustang\ fox body cars comes with headers, ford racing oil pan,pickup,dipstick, motor mounts,oil pump shaft, and melling oil pump,, $880. and i see i need a manual brake setup too?
I have also done 3 fox/460 swaps. One was a 1978 Fairmont, the other a 1985 Mustang and the latest is a 1983 Thunderbird.
I used the Ford motorsports oil pan and motor mounts with 1 1/2" K member spacers on the stock K member. Unfortunately I used the Hooker headers too, I second they suck! I would look at D+D Automotive Specialties in Ohio. They have complete kits with pan, mounts and headers. Bob (the owner) is a great guy to work with.
If you use a power brake booster from a 1993 Mustang Cobra, it will clear the valve covers or you can go manual.
Mine had the 7.5" diff in it so I upgraded to an 8.8. And had a custom 3" driveshaft made.
The huge torque of the BBF is great and really freaks people out!!
Good luck,
Bill
"he huge torque of the BBF is great and really freaks peopleout!!"
Whats wrong with that!!, I like it. Maybe I can convince Vinney To a 460.
vinnie likes my suggestions!!.LOL
I am very, very happy with my 460 swaps.
People can't believe I fit all that engine in there. But they fit better than some think.
The spark plugs are eisier to change on this than my 1972 Mach1 with the 351 Cleveland. The K member spacers make a big difference too, I can even run an engine driven fan.
For drag racing most guys run the 4cyl mustang springs, I still have the 5.0 springs with one coil cut. The car sits very nice and level.
Good luck!!
Bill
How do they handle ? I'm not expecting slot car handling but is it as bad as some folks say ?
so how much can my 88 handle before i start blowin out back windows, and hurting it more than help it?
ricktjr:
I removed the front sway bar for better weight transfer, but it still doesn't handle too bad. It leans a bit if you take a corner fast, but not too bad, not a corner burner though!! I have aluminium heads and intake so the weight should be close to the 302.
masscougarxr7:
If you install subframe connectors (weld in), the car should handle a bunch of power with out any problems, a 6 or 8 point cage will offer some more insurance but can be a pain for getting in and out!
Our '83 T-Bird is pushing 525HP and 565TQ without sub frame connectors, but the street tires don't offer much bite:burnout: , connectors are coming this winter.
Bill
All i got to say is that why would you do this swap and then think about gas mileage. Unless you want to be like the 90% of Fox body owners who run the 5.0. Just remember theirs no replacement for displacement.
I hear you on that one!!!! just building the motor back to stock specs will double the stock 5.0 horse.....but obviously it wont be stock......
Sure their is.....It's called BOOST!
or ego! ask any one that had a new cars from the 70's, there car run faster as there story get told through the years!
supercharge the bb, boost that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!jk i dont need that much power and im not a big fan of 4 and 6 cyl cars.....UGH the sound..........unless it sounds like a subaru wrx.... then maybe...
Not quite...
My stock 4 speed, 3:50 geared, 428 Cobra Jet Fairlane has run 14.21@100, the Tbird has bettered that by 1.1 sec and 5mph...
The rags of the day got similar times for 3:50 geared cars, ones with 3.91 or 4.30 gears generally ran 13.8 -14.0... With open headers, fatter jets in the carb, and a little iginition work, they'd run 12.8s easily...
sounds about right for those cars. but those good old boys, that where the 1st owners. now like to say they ran high 10 to low 12 right off the showroom floor in there story of the good old days..
Yep, just like the fish story, gets longer and weighs more with each telling... First thing you know that sardine is Moby Dick... LOL
BTW the 14.21 was ran with a Holley 600cfm 390GT carb in place the orignal 735cfm Holley(externally except for pt no, they look the same)... That one change no doubt hurt it by two tenths, but it is more responsive at part throttle with the smaller carb... Will lug down to 20mph in high gear and never whimper, whereas it would have a bucking fit at the same speed with the 735, so it just sets on the shelf...
Had a aftermarket Holley 780 on it for a time, by the ass-o-meter it was a little stronger than the 735... With that carb probably could have run a high 13, but I swapped it for something(so long ago I've forgotten)... At the time I was swapping carbs, I had a wife, two small kids, house payment, car payment(the Cobra Jet)and barely made ends meet, couldn't afford to go to the track... Figured that was OK at least I had the car(soon will be 36 years)...
Yeah, kinda like my father, who cannot wrap his mind around the fact that new Mustangs and Corvettes are quicker and faster than the old ones ever were. Hell, his '08 V6 Sonata would probably run rings around his old '68 442. He doesn't understand that 300 horsepower back then was really more like 225, and that 5-inch-wide bias ply tires and leaf springs were not the best way to get that power to the ground. Most modern V6 four-door sedans are quicker than just about any small-block cars from the 60's, and even the big blocks would have their work cut out for them with some modern V6 FWD econopoopsters, and the modern car can actually turn a corner (and carry its occupants in air conditioned comfort and airbag/ABS/traction control safety, and actually last 250k+ miles with little more than oil changes, and return near 30MPG)...
Of course the 60's cars DO have modern ones all beat to hell when it comes to styling, and they
can be made
really fast, but in stock form most people look back on the 60's with rose coloured glasses.
No doubt the new Mustangs have more HP than the 60's counterparts....we're talking v6 against the old v8's. Rear-wheel measured vs. flywheel back then, too.... but give me an old one anyday. Modern tech on suspensions as well...agreed.
But when it come to torque?
boy if i could do a BBF again. i would do it in a heartbeat! the last 460 i built, was in 1997 .
i use BBF from a 1974 cougar XR7 WITH ONLY 24,000 MILES on the car.
stock 1974 ford shortblock.
1979 460 crank,
429 CJ rods,
ARP rod bolts,
.30 over TRW forged pistons,
svo cam (234intake/244 exhaust at.50) and svo chain set with ROADS lifters,
1974 460 heads with 2.09 intake/1.73exhaust/ intake pucket ported/complete exhaust ported ,
cast iron 1971 mustang 429 exhaust manifolds ,
complete 2 1/2 exhaust with dynomax (summit)lers,
EDLEBROCK dual plane plane,
780cfm vac sec holley,
2000 stall converter,
stock amco rebuild c-6 with after market shift kit.
3.89 rear gears stang first/ then swap 3.50,
3.50 ranchero
N50 street tires on rear .
short block clearance;
piston was .010
main was.003
rad was .0025
DROVE BOTH THE CAR AND then aTRUCK with this engine on the street plus race them . it idle at 900 at the stop lights. cruise great and i would turn 7200 rpm(3.89 gears) out the back door at the 1/4 mile .
foxbody ran 13 .1 and got 13 when it did have the 3.50 gears)
73 ranchero ran 13.9 and got 11 mpg with 3.50 gears)
massCougarxr7;
if your going to drive it on the street put some 1998 or up cobra springs all the way around..
here a photo of the ranchero and the BBF was close to 9 yrs old;
[(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/704317/fullsize/ebay2.-002.jpg)
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/704316/fullsize/ebay2-009.jpg)
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/704315/fullsize/ebay2-010.jpg)
the only reason i don't do 460 foxbody swap now is cuz i already have more rebuilt small blocks than projects.
but my zephyer wagon WOODY could go BBF INSTEAD SBF, if i Could fine a good deal on good BBF;
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/703483/fullsize/79-merc-wagon-10-001.jpg)
Nope today as then it was flywheel HP... Big difference is prior the "advertised" HP number was on a dyno tuned engine, running open headers... Detune the carb and ign for Joe Average street usage, fit a full exhaust system(which was often just 2" and never more than 2.25") and 25% of the original HP is now choked away...So basically HP numbers prior to '72 are what the car would have when modified... Today the rating is as installed with accessories and exhaust system...
If HP numbers back when(1970) were real, how could a 4100lb Buick GS(Skylark), with a 455, rated at 360Hp give such fits to 3900lb 450Hp 454 Chevelles??? Easy, Chevy like most of the others were lying... In the early 90s, based on trap speed in the 1/4mi, Muscle Car Review said the Buick had to producing 353Hp to run the numbers(13.3s @ 103) that were published in Hot Rod(or what ever rag)... The 454 Chevy was making similar numbers... Interestingly my Bird runs almost the same numbers(13.11 @ 105.3 best) as the Buick but I'm 400lb lighter... Still that means the little 5.0 is making close to the same HP as a 1970 455cu Buick...
It's been said the 335Hp rating on the 428 Cobra Jets was laughable(under rated), but in reality that's close to what they produced in stock form(still slightly over rated)... With above mentioned mods another 80-90Hp could be unleashed...
BTW MM&FF did a head comparison 7-8 years ago and squeezed 245 HP out of a totally stock HO 5.0, running with the open dyno headers... Soooo, a good set of headers and 2.5" cat back will maybe get you 20HP(assuming all else is stock)... On a modified engine with heads, cam and better intake the numbers could be closer to 50 Hp, which is what most mfgr's would advertise...
I had a freudian slip. I was thinking 1972 and SAE, and mentioned rear wheel hp. You be right.
I Found on the dyno you loose close to 100hp when you go from stripper to fully dressed with factory exhaust.
as 5.0 close to 455,maybe not SO close .because from my racing days .
weight= HP. BEING 400lbs lighter is big different when i comes to HP in ET racing.
thats why, i allwise like to use my dyno over ET guess's.
if you don't believe me look up what 1987 to 1993 mustang LX runs and then look up 1987 to 1993 mustang GT runs. the lx is close to 400lbs lighter than the GT. they have the same drive train/computer. the extra weight comes from the GT ground effects/ GT STUFF inside passenger compartment.
yes ,i agree the some of the newer cars can and will spank the good old boys when there both factory stock in both cars.
that why i have sold my 71 boss351/ 73mach1/ and other pre 1973 stuff . out of my 14 cars/trucks only2 are older than 1980 and that my 72 mustang coupe that i drove in highshool and my 1973 ranchero because it was free.
i like the mid 80s to late 90's. best of both worlds. you have newer drive train with out the government bull:flip::toilet: .( like all the computer B.S. because people are laaaazy and have there car tell them what wroung/where to go/ even tech message them on the home computer when it check it self)
Well IF the old assumption, loosing 100 lbs is worth a tenth applies, I'm maybe 20hp short of the Buick... Notice I ran quicker by .2 and 2mph... At equal HP I should have bee .4 quicker...
Anyway, you're correct, ETs are mostly worthless when comparing HP, it's the MPH that tells the story... Cast in point, dropping from a 4.30 to 2.80 rear will kill just about one second ET on a 3500 car with roughly 300Hp... BUT assuming traction is adequate, the mph will still remain relatively close... MPH is the benchmark, not ET...
Of course a dyno tells the story as well, but you can't race one of those... Or as one one guy at the local tracks states...
"You can sleep in your race car, but you can't race your house"...
lol! weight and ETs dont mattter to me. i want my cougar to be a weekend driver, or summer car... Im shooting for 450 to 500 horse. I already have my list of parts for my build, the only thing im iffy about is my heads.. I want somthing like the edelbrock 95cc performer heads, but im not too willing to pay 900 bucks each.... But i did find some bare 95cc heads for like 700 each....probably wont save much,so ill just jump on the complete ones and avoid the hasssel.. The only thing that will be original to my block will be the crank and the block itself.... Pistons and beams are known to blow somewhere around 350 horse..(as told by 460ford forums) The stock crank can handle up to about 800 horse, so that wont need replacement...And dont worry I plan on taking photos every step of the way, and creating two threads. one for the motor build and one for the swap...Ive also sped the widebody idea....too much time involved and i dont want to be hated at CJ for ruining a nearly mint cat!!!!!
the 429/460 had two style of rods;
1- first was stock passenger rod( none CJ style) was good for about350hp .
2- the factory 429 CJ or 1979 later truck( same as CJ) rods .
the(CJ OR 79later truck rod) LATTER one is used in the 460cid
500 hp m-6007-G460 and there 514cid
625 hp M-6007-D514 that SVO CRATE ENGINE that ford mass made
so you better call ford to recall all of them because you say there rods are only good 350HP.
just pick up a ford M-6009-E460 or better yet a M-6009-D514 short block and build your dream weekend driver, or summer car engine.
I've heard that horsepower determines how fast you hit the wall, but torque determines how far the wall moves after you hit it....
Well i was planning on rebuilding the block inside and out anyway...i would just like to have a completely rebuilt motor that makes serious power,and every part be frsh and new.....also im gonna take care of this motor and my cat for as long as i can. While im working on the block im also going to re-do the evry bushing and rusted bolt on the frond and rear. its pretty much going to be a completly rebuilt xr7, with a purdy big motor.... I dont care how much it will cost, money comes and goes, but cougars are yours forever!!!!!!!
And yes it will be an AOD with appropriate shift kits and transbrake......just in case....i got a little something planned for the body too!!!
Heres a pic of my block, trans and stock heads.... enjoy, and the rust you see is a little rough on the outside, but the cylinders are only a very light surface rust........ its getting bored over anyway so it shouldnt matter.....
(http://[IMG]http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp346/Mean88Merc/Cougars/DSCN2371.jpg)[/IMG]
(http://[IMG]http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp346/Mean88Merc/Cougars/DSCN2370.jpg)[/IMG]
(http://[IMG]http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp346/Mean88Merc/Cougars/DSCN2372.jpg)[/IMG]
i think the trans is aod, but it came on the block and was in a 9,000 lb van, so its prob. not an aod
just because it didn't come out of an AOD dosen't mean it couldn't work. Get er done.
C-6 trans for sure.
If you haven't already, check out http://www.460ford.com
Lots of Fox swap guys on there.
Think that will fit in the tranny tunnel without tpuppies? Looks big but maybe its the picture.
Yes, it will fit.
I didn't realize until now that I posted on this thread on page 2 post # 13.
Tranny will barely clear the tunnel, and a good 2 pound hammer gaurantees it will fit ! :D
Actually when i first started this thread, and you pointed me in 460 fords direction, i instantly joined up, ive just been doing a lot of background, and build up reasearch....... thanks alot!!!!
And hey ive been meaning to ask you..... are your 460s stock??? what kid of horse are they puttin out??? i know the bb is only pushin 240 in its stock form, but i was going to put rollers, cam, intake carb, and gears on it, what do you think????
Pair of aluminum heads for roughly 600 a pop (http://"http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-429-460-ALUMINUM-CYLINDER-HEADS-ASSEMBLED-3051-A_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1171Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem220371228897QQitemZ220371228897QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories")
I say if this is true (I'm sure it is) You should go for it. This would be a fun summer tire burner. Daily driver though, probably not. Build it! Pics are important.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is other technology, esp tires, but also suspension and traction control. The muscle cars couldn't put power to the pavement like cars today can.
I really wish i could get those heads now...... but ill find somthing sooner or later....tire burner? DEFINATELY!!!!!!!!!! I know i really need to stiifen up the suspension a lot, becausse, i love getting sideways, and i cant wait to see how the cat handles it with a bb and 300 more horse, and a lot more torque.....If its too uncontrollable, than itll be strictly a burnout/donut machine........ And i dont think im going to think of trac. control although it is a very good idea!!! Maybe abs........
Pics especially!!!!!!!! wanna build a how to thread......... Im dying to make a stickie with my name on it!!!! Then i'll feel like ive contributed something!!!
Don't worry if you make a build page following your chronicals I'm sure that will happen. My dream is to build a G-machine with a stout small block and a bada$$ paintjob but thats a looooooooong way off.
Lets put a chain connecting our cars and see what happens, ill up tire pressure and you can lower lower yours,.....
Well, I've got a long way to go that you probably do. Rust repair, engine and tranny swap, paint, exhaust, tires.
hey, im doing rust repair now, and i still hav all that swappping on top of finishing the heater core replacement.......its a long road, but someone has to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Well I'm sure we'll be able to do it at some cat jam in the future but it will be a long while thats for sure.
Yes, both a pretty stock. Only a performer intake and 600 carb and MSD box. My guess is they put out about 290 hp at the flywheel.
Cam really wakes them up to a point....then a bump to 9.5-10;00 to 1 compression helps. The exhaust side of the heads are the big restriction.
I have been thinking of buying a set of those Pro Comp heads. For the price ( $ 1,100) they look to get me to about 400 hp and a cam change.
the tc looks like it hooks pretty good, what are your e/t's? The more i think about the swap the more i think about just slowly building it up piece by piece, and then dropping it in. And those heads do look good, the way i see it if im paying around 1,000 buks a head, i might as well throw another couple hundred at it and get even better heads.
I'd almost just stick with cast heads just figure out which are the best on a budget and get that combo working for a while. Thats just my inner penny pincher at work though.
yeah but if i just keep it on a stand and gather all the parts, build it to run strong, and swap it in.....
The TC runs a 1.83 60 ft. and 8.60's.....that old engine is so worn out it just runs out of power on the top end. it hooks well with those 275-55-16 M&H Drag Radials. Torque convertor is a TCI sat. Night special. Trans is C-6. Engine shifts at 4400.
I am currently batting an idea around of buying a 521 shortblock from coast high performance and puttin those Pro Comp heads on it for a 9.0 to 1 compression ratio. Then a mild cam and a 750 carb. Then top it off with a turbo and 8 lbs of boost. By my guestimate it should get around 550-600 flywheel horse on 8 lbs of boost. All I need is 400 hp on the motor and add 8 lbs of boost to get 600 hp.
This way the engine should last for years.:D
You'll HAVE to make a build page while you do it.
Good idea. I wasn't on this site the last time I built a car. I would love to keep the TC looking stock on the outside and have the blow thru setup under that stock hood. ( I measured...it will fit.:D )
yeah that would be cool, so you run 8.60 with a 290hp motor?????? was that a typo, or what am i missing?????
So whats the initial launch like????? I feel that torque is more important than hp.. but thats my own opinion....
I would guess thats 1/8th mile, not quarter mile.
X 2...
I would bet that the stock rods could handle quite a bit. Unless you have like 90,000hp, I would think that torque would be a better way to rate a mostly stock internal peices.
Oh, ok....... i feel dumb now....... like i said before the stock rods are supposedly only good for around 350hp, not bad, but the stock crank can handle like 800-900hp, thats one strong S.O.B.!!!!!! At first i wanted to just dump the stock block in, and enjoy the power, but the H.O. conversion is shooting me only 20 to 30 hp less, than the stock bb.
Think about the torque man! How many people can say they have a BB 87-88 Cougar XR7? You could call it a Cougar Eliminator Remix.
You are right...1/8th mile. I think 8.60s is equivalent to 13.60's in the 1/4. Remember, both of our Birds are low compression, small cam smog engines that shift way early around 4500. (they have stock rods)
The stock factory "football" rods with arp rod bolts are pretty strong. They came in 80's-90's 460 trucks. Ford also sells them thru FRRP. The stock crank is good to about 700 hp...easy.
The only advantage of the 460 over a stroker 351W is cheap, easy to find used parts and instant torque. The bad side of putting a BB in a Fox is the extra weight and lack of overdrive transmissions available cheap. When I built our Gray 460 T-Bird, there was no such thing as a stroker 351w available cheap. I want to put a 408W in that 83 Gray Bird so we can drive it on the freeway, but my wife says no, she loves that 460 BB.....lol:D
That'll be close...
My Bird has run 13.11 on a 8.42 1/8 mile, but it always seems to run a couple tenths quicker in the second half of a 1/4 mi run than what the calculators predict... I need more converter to get it out of the hole quicker, best all motor 60ft has been 1.900... No it couldn't have run a 1.899, would have looked better on paper...