Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: mjk289 on October 16, 2007, 10:39:38 PM
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: mjk289 on October 16, 2007, 10:39:38 PM
Has anyone had a problem with there headlight switch overheating and cutting off power to the headlights. I have an 88 Cougar XR-7. I'll be checking it out but I wasn't sure if it could just be the switch or I have a wiring problem.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 17, 2007, 01:17:45 AM
do you have the autolamp option?
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: dominator on October 17, 2007, 06:02:41 AM
What wattage headlamp or foglamp bulbs are you running??
Title: have seen...
Post by: screaming306 on October 17, 2007, 08:38:17 AM
i have seen this problem at work on a jaguar later found out the customer changed the bulbs to a higher wattage, which in turn is pulling more amps through the circuit.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: Innes on October 17, 2007, 10:29:41 AM
be careful may cause a fire
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: santana on October 17, 2007, 11:19:38 AM
Go to NATO and check out the tech article on using relays to power your lights so that your light switch doesn't overheat and burn out or cause a fire. I switch used to get pretty warm but after doing the relays it stays cool.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: stuntmannick on October 17, 2007, 02:14:20 PM
Just replace the switch. Had this problem on my '86 TC. The headlights would cut out at random after they had been on for more than 10 mins. New switch solved that.
If you're cheap, you can pull the switch apart, clean the copper electrodes and re grease (using dielectric grease).
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 17, 2007, 09:53:26 PM
Quote from: santana;182967
Go to NATO and check out the tech article on using relays to power your lights so that your light switch doesn't overheat and burn out or cause a fire. I switch used to get pretty warm but after doing the relays it stays cool.
Hey now!!! why would anyone over at farking nut hole nato be any smarter than us on these cars,,,,,,,,,,,, i hate dumb ass suggestions like that.:shakeass: I see it more often than i like.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: santana on October 17, 2007, 10:42:36 PM
I don't know but then I did not see anything about using relays here. So I guess the only dumb ass suggestion is why didn't you come up with it?
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: P71 on October 17, 2007, 11:18:58 PM
jcassity hasn't burned any cars to the ground. NATO's tech articles have.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: Carpimp1987 on October 18, 2007, 12:42:21 AM
I had a blub melt the plastic where you twist in the blubs.
Euro Dezigns 8500K headlight Blubs Part #9004
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: Sluggo on October 18, 2007, 04:45:56 AM
Quote from: jcassity;183068
Hey now!!! why would anyone over at farking nut hole nato be any smarter than us on these cars,,,,,,,,,,,, i hate dumb ass suggestions like that.:shakeass: I see it more often than i like.
Please explain this comment.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: Innes on October 18, 2007, 05:10:55 AM
I think he’s saying we handle things in house
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: Blackout on October 18, 2007, 06:44:45 AM
Instead of just bitching about Nato, lets help the guy.
If you are running higher wattage than stock bulbs, best case, you melt something. Worst case, you set something on fire. If the switch is getting warm, try a used good one. If it still gets warm, add the relays to the system. The relays will lower the draw on the switch, and provide direct power to the lights from the battery. Win Win. If you plan on or already are running high wattage bulbs, upgrade the wiring to the connectors also.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: santana on October 18, 2007, 10:36:39 AM
Mike NATO tech article didn't cause the fire. The guy said he did not do the regulator plug wires as the article said to do. He said they were already done as if the PO was going to do the 3g up grade. He also said it looks like the plug burned the worst. He should have tested the wires like the article said to do. Wire colors have been known to be changed at the factory.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: EricCoolCats on October 18, 2007, 12:23:51 PM
Quote
Hey now!!! why would anyone over at farking nut hole nato be any smarter than us on these cars,,,,,,,,,,,, i hate dumb ass suggestions like that. I see it more often than i like.
Scott....watch it please. Didn't we collectively determine user installation errors as the cause of that fire? If you have problems with the article you're entitled to that opinion, but remember that we have lots of NATO members here also, and the majority of people seem to have had zero problems using that NATO 3G installation article. I suggest that we cut back on the NATO slamming here and continue on with the problem at hand...which should be resolved with a new headlamp switch. Santana's suggestions are also very valid.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: santana on October 18, 2007, 01:06:37 PM
Guys let me say I am sorry since I didn't mean to cause such a ruckus with my suggestion and should have just let it go. Again I am sorry for the troble I caused.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: EricCoolCats on October 18, 2007, 01:23:24 PM
It's not your fault ...in fact you were simply trying to help out a fellow board member. There's nothing for which you should be apologizing. Other sites and boards have ideas that can be different from what we know and are used to using. It takes a big step to admit that. The information is out there for mjk289 to use, if he chooses to do so, and you provided your personal input. That's excellent for a new member! We appreciate your experience here.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 18, 2007, 10:20:30 PM
sorry everyone, i think i was misunderstood,
anyway, cant really understand why im getting slammed, other than politics. Sure there are nato guys here, ill bet many board members come here as well. just figured i would point out we aint so dumb around there either.
Its like saying we cant do anything on our own or make an attempt to.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: V8Demon on October 19, 2007, 07:54:02 AM
Uh-OH......Someone said politics..........IBTL?
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: turbopete on October 19, 2007, 12:36:19 PM
Speaking only for myself, I have linked to NATO info from here, in the past. Not because I thought NATO info it was better, but because I knew where it was over there (quick to find the link) and did not know where similar info was here. By the same token, I have, at NATO, linked to info here or at Coolcats, when I knew where it was and felt it was "better" or more concise than NATO info. My desire is to answer a question quickly with the best info that I am aware of. I don't claim to know the location of all sources of infomation.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 20, 2007, 03:06:53 AM
Quote from: EricCoolCats;183187
Scott....watch it please. Didn't we collectively determine user installation errors as the cause of that fire? If you have problems with the article you're entitled to that opinion, but remember that we have lots of NATO members here also, and the majority of people seem to have had zero problems using that NATO 3G installation article. I suggest that we cut back on the NATO slamming here and continue on with the problem at hand...which should be resolved with a new headlamp switch. Santana's suggestions are also very valid.
i know this guy is long gone but i am back home now and not in a rush like i was earlier this week. Eric,, what are you talking about? This whole fire thing is confussing me cause i dont know where i mentioned fire, nor anything about a 3g. I wasnt slamming nato either, just making a dingy little comment saying we can handle wiring. Im not sure why you associated me with slamming nato about a 3g install, you got the wrong guy cause i didnt slam them on this
Someone else mentioned something about a fire , not me. I just made one little comment and someone elses words became my responsiblity somehow.
you got the wrong guy as far as some sort of tech article. I never saw a fire, never saw proof of any fire and for that matter, never implied there was one.
This guy is talking about a lamp switch getting hot, Personally i dont see how a relay can fix that when the internal contacts of the actual switch are still going to be the same size ampacity reguardless if you install a relay or not.
thats the problem with message boards and me,,,, i dont bother using smilies enough i guess so that the human part is mixed into my messages. This is the only message board im on and i dont really care to move one to another either. yours truely,, confussed.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 20, 2007, 03:31:45 AM
Quote from: Birdman;183126
Instead of [COLOR="Red"]just[/COLOR] bitching about Nato, lets help the guy.
If you are running higher wattage than stock bulbs, best case, you melt something. Worst case, you set something on fire. If the switch is getting warm, try a used good one. If it still gets warm, add the relays to the system. The relays will lower the draw on the switch, and provide direct power to the lights from the battery. Win Win. If you plan on or already are running high wattage bulbs, upgrade the wiring to the connectors also.
who ed about nato? ,,,,[COLOR="Red"]just[/COLOR] that is. Ive never been on that board so i dono what your talking about. Im a good person but sure as h3ll aint not tax free door mat unless i have it coming.
so you've said a lot, and it sounds like your a good salesman. Show us you know what your selling. Proof's in the pudding and i am interested. as well cause it sounds like your calling out for new wiring , primary and secondary fusing (which you never mentioned nor how) and a different switch. Im sure you could use the old switch but nothings done about the under engineered contacts.
At the time, I didnt have access to information on how i could help him , i do try to help alot and i dont generally bs around on here. I did have a good lead on his problem if he had come back with an answer to my question but as many do, they ask a question and never come back with answers.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: EricCoolCats on October 20, 2007, 09:44:20 AM
The 'burning car' in question is NOT the one in this thread. It seems to have been a reference to DMC24guy's Turbo Coupe burning down after his botched 3G alternator install. That was alluded to in this thread (at least the NATO article). Again, I think we pretty much figured out that his install wasn't up to par and was likely the cause of the fire. It's not a personal slam against anyone. But please remember that, despite any personal views, we do have a community that is open to the world and your comments may be misconstrued easily. Just FYI, the NATO comments in this thread have already upset quite a few people and has possibly damaged relations with them. I'm not very bloody happy about that.
This thread is getting seriously off subject. We're trying to help someone who has a possibly serious problem with the headlamp switch. It's not that difficult to keep on track here.
Title: Headlight switch
Post by: mjk289 on October 20, 2007, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: stuntmannick;182993
Just replace the switch. Had this problem on my '86 TC. The headlights would cut out at random after they had been on for more than 10 mins. New switch solved that.
If you're cheap, you can pull the switch apart, clean the copper electrodes and re grease (using dielectric grease).
Thanks everyone. I have sylvania silverstar headlights that I think are stock wattage. I had fog lights but I disconnected them. I don't think I have the Autolamp option (jcassity). I've cleaned and di-electric greased my switch but you can tell the contacts are bad. I've had this problem for a while and I did replace the switch with a used one off eBay, but it still overheats.
I just found out the switch is discontinued from Ford. E7SB-11654-AA. The parts stores like Pepboys and Advance can't get it and none of the local dealers have it. The dealer did a search and there is one in Illinois.
As I was pulling out of the dealer I heard two guys on their break commenting about the 88 being there favorite cougar. My car is not in the best shape, but people always ask me about it.
thanks again guys.
Title: Just ordered from DirectFordparts.com
Post by: mjk289 on October 20, 2007, 01:32:40 PM
I just ordered a new one online for 70 bucks.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: santana on October 20, 2007, 01:33:26 PM
The contacts in the light switch are rated lower than they should be. They have been known to overheat and cause a failure or do the lights on and off problem. You use the light switch to power the relay so that it draws less than an amp thru the light switch. Of course you supply a fused power supply to the infeed for the relay that goes out the out feed to the lights. I did not mean for my answer before to sound like you couldn't handle a wiring problem here.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 20, 2007, 02:21:04 PM
here is a decent drawing that may get you started on how to tackle the problem. You mentioned you installed a bone yard switch and it did the same thing. Based on that, its likely that both switches are in just as bad of shape. ,,,, but,,, its also just as likely that the wiring may have taken a beating as well.
i would follow the schematic and put a meter on each end of the various wires to get a resistance measurement. YOu could jot down the resistance numbers and find out if any wires read above 1ohm. I just noticed a "resistance wire" in the diagram i never knew about but its probably acting like a current shunt,,dono,,, just glanced at it but its interesting no one has looked into that part of the circuit in te past to find out if this wire could cause heating issues if it opens.
So,,, anyway,,, just for your viewing pleasure and to assist in what ever angle you decide to go, the below drawing will probably be helpful.
As for having auto lamps,, it would be obvious,,. Do you have a sensor mounted on your rear view mirror?
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 20, 2007, 03:06:20 PM
Quote from: EricCoolCats;183462
This thread is getting seriously off subject. We're trying to help someone who has a possibly serious problem with the headlamp switch. It's not that difficult to keep on track here.
honestly, I feel bad the nato guys are upset. I was up in BC Canada when i logged on that day and to tell you the truth,, i was a little under the influence,,, it was a bad attempt of a play on names or just goofing off but trying to make a point to. I failed all the way around but hey,, we all make mistakes. If the nato folks are that upset and sensitive,, ill keep it in mind and make sure to understand how British cigaretteile things can become with one fail swoop of "submit reply".
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: Sluggo on October 20, 2007, 04:07:38 PM
If you choose to trigger relays with the existing lighting circuits, it would be best to do it with a new or known good switch. My car did the lights off move on me several times before I changed the switch and the used one I picked up is working fine. The high beams stay off unless I really need them now though.
I don't know if anyone is upset, I just couldn't see why anyone would say anything negative about the NATO site. I've never had any trouble over there.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: Blackout on October 20, 2007, 11:52:08 PM
Sluggo Very true.
Now, what I mean by all I posted above is this.
Even though the contacts in the switch are still the same size, the headlamps would be wired with power comming directly from the battery, instead of pulling it through the switch. that means with less power actually being drawn through that switch, the thermal problem should be solved. IN ADDITION to all of that, it would not be a bad idea to get new plugs and pigtails for the light connectors. They (along with that switch) are notorious for failure. Ive seen more than my share of headlight plugs actually melt, and some actualy burn because higher than stock wattage bulbs are being used. Usually the problem with the switch is a on off on off switching when the breaker re-sets itself because of too much power being drawn through it. basicly, the contacts are moot because there is less of a power draw on them. I used the NATO tech article to accomplish the same thing, because of the same problem. The only drawback is that the systems sentry always shows a " low beam out" light on because the draw isnt enough to keep it happy.
"Why? If you suffer from worn out headlight switch circuit breakers, headlights going out for no apparent reason, and you have tested and reground the entire electrical system, this mod is for you! Ford designed the headlight switch so that all current for the headlights high and low beam) and fog lights runs through the headlight switch. There is a self-resetting circuit breaker in loop, that tends to wear out. Also, if you run a non-stock headlight bulb, this circuit breaker will wear out faster, since there is typically more current drawn for the non-stock bulb."
This also causes the stock switch to be hot or warm to the touch.
It makes sense if you read the article.
26. I just finished this on my own 88 TC. I ran the car for an hour afterward with the high beams, low beams and fog lights on, and switch never got even warm. Prior to this mod, my switch would get really warm after the headlights had been on about 20 minutes. The only problem (if you want to call it a problem) is the "Low Beam Out" indicator on my system sentry panel illuminates when I turn the headlights to low beam. I guess the circuit is not drawing enough amps through the switch to keep the computer happy.
and that part basicly says what Ive said here.
Switch never gets hot, lights dont cut out, and everything is happy fine...(except the systems sentry)
Jcassity: I didnt mean just you, and I didnt mean to imply that you were "Just Bitching about NATO" I was just trying to get everyone back on topic, and help solve a problem for a board member. Isnt that what we are all here for anyways? :) If you've never been to the board before, have you ever read that particular tech article? If not...... and i'm really not trying to be a dick..... I woulndt have made your first comment. Thats just me. I would have read it and then after checking it out commented one way or the other. I fyou have read it and you see something wrong, then post up some helpful info to get our member's problem fixed.
And Santana, its not the contacts that cause the on off on off operation. Its the self resetting circuit breaer in the loop. that breaker wears out, and can be very touchey.
I dont mean to piss people off here, and i respect most on this board that ive had the pleasure of helping and being helped by (Jcassity you are included in this bunch) I just want everyone to have an open mind and to help our fellow member. This is a great community, lets keep it that way. :)
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 21, 2007, 11:41:20 AM
Quote from: Birdman;183564
"Why? If you suffer from worn out headlight switch circuit breakers, headlights going out for no apparent reason, and you have tested and reground the entire electrical system, this mod is for you! Ford designed the headlight switch so that all current for the headlights high and low beam) and fog lights runs through the headlight switch. There is a self-resetting circuit breaker in loop, that tends to wear out. Also, if you run a non-stock headlight bulb, this circuit breaker will wear out faster, since there is typically more current drawn for the non-stock bulb."
hummm.....................
ok,, ill bite. where is the headlamp breaker? never seen it nor do i think i ever will. Our main light switch is fuse link fed.,,not breaker controled.
Besides,,, the heat producer in the switch is the dimmer variable resistor imho. I experimented and found out if i run down the road with my dome light on, that the switch is cooler. You can see in the drawing that when the dimmer wiper arm is moved to the left, you are in max current / least resistance. Imho, as soon as you reach that state of near zero ohms, the "load"(dimmmer rherostat) is not "absorbing: current in the windings therefore not producing joules of energy in watts or power. thats just my opinion but at best, my test actually showed the switch got cooler when you rotate the dimmer so the dash was at max intensity or as well, with dome on.
I just dont see a circuit breaker anywhere.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: Sluggo on October 21, 2007, 03:34:05 PM
I believe this "circuit breaker" is a thermal switch inside the light switch assembly. Could I be wrong?
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: santana on October 21, 2007, 10:37:56 PM
Birdman 2 thumbs up on correcting my mistake and letting me know about it so I do not make it again. Thanks.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 22, 2007, 01:46:09 AM
Quote from: Sluggo;183693
I believe this "circuit breaker" is a thermal switch inside the light switch assembly. Could I be wrong?
no one here has ever as far as i know mentioned a circuit breaker in the switch. Im still waiting on a response to that part. I dont have an extra one to disect though so maybe someone else could confirm.
I may dig into that subject using my shop manuals tomorrow while i get some spare time.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: Blackout on October 22, 2007, 10:49:47 AM
Sorry, my net was down for a bit. I beleive that it is part of the switch Like sluggo said. I guess its a thermal switch, not exactly a breaker.
thats interesting what you posted about the dome light though. I think this may warrent some more investigation.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: softtouch on October 22, 2007, 09:57:34 PM
On the main light switch, the connection between B1 and B3 is the symbol for a circuit breaker.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: mjk289 on October 23, 2007, 12:15:38 AM
Well I haven't had time to do much yet except check the fog light wiring. Thanks for posting the wiring diagram. I actually have that book somewhere. Anyway the company I ordered the switch from emailed me that they don't have it anymore and its discontinued, but I have a lead on one. About the autolamp option I don't have it. And I can confirm that inside my switch there is a metal strip that bends away from its contact when it gets hot. Also to be clear there is two different switches that come up for my car in the parts stores computer systems. One they have in stock and its only like 25 bucks or so. The other is the one I have and is much more expensive, but discontinued. Tomorrow I'm going to call a place in another state that shows has having one in their inventory.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 27, 2007, 02:54:23 AM
is this what everyone means by triggering a headlamp circuit?
I attempted to compare what effects this would have on an autolamp system and it just got kind of lost in my current beer:D
I suppose the fuse link that feeds the switch becomes a little over kill now eh?
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: softtouch on October 27, 2007, 07:08:06 PM
Quote from: jcassity;184810
is this what everyone means by triggering a headlamp circuit?
I attempted to compare what effects this would have on an autolamp system and it just got kind of lost in my current beer:D
I suppose the fuse link that feeds the switch becomes a little over kill now eh?
Look at your EVTM on page 81. The headlight circuit for the autolamp feature uses the circuit breaker that is built into the main headlight switch.
Hot at all times comes into the main switch on B1, through the circuit breaker and out on B3 to the autolamp relay #1.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 27, 2007, 08:56:07 PM
yeah, i wasnt talking about that part,, im talking about the contact side of the secondary relay.
anyway, does this look reasonable for those without (vast majority) without autolamp?
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: softtouch on October 27, 2007, 11:31:59 PM
Quote from: jcassity;184925
yeah, i wasnt talking about that part,, im talking about the contact side of the secondary relay.
anyway, does this look reasonable for those without (vast majority) without autolamp?
That does look like what they are talking about.
The fuse linked wire that feeds the switch is not unique to the light switch. It also feeds fuses on the fuse panel. It protects the wire between the starter solenoid and the fuse panel/ light switch.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 28, 2007, 02:08:54 AM
Quote from: softtouch;184966
That does look like what they are talking about. .
I didnt see a thread to a link i could compare to. I just dont know what rating should be on the relay, the fuse feeding the relay and the fuse inline with the coil. Im thinking,,,,,,,,,
30A feeding the relay contacts to power headlamps 10a feeding the relay coil
honestly,, i think those ampacities are excessive except for the fuse feeding the new relay contacts. Evidently the front park lamps are 15a while the tail end with all the multipule bulbs in parallel is 10a.
there is something wrong with this but i cant quite put my finger on it just yet. I gotta have it layed out with several diagrams layed out infront of me at once.
Notice that jumper i have from the park lamp position???
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: softtouch on October 28, 2007, 11:13:45 PM
Quote from: jcassity;184991
I didnt see a thread to a link i could compare to. I just dont know what rating should be on the relay, the fuse feeding the relay and the fuse inline with the coil. Im thinking,,,,,,,,,
39A feeding the relay contacts to power headlamps 10a feeding the relay coil 15A relay
honestly,, i think those ampacities are excessive except for the fuse feeding the new relay contacts. Evidently the front park lamps are 15a while the tail end with all the multipule bulbs in parallel is 10a.
there is something wrong with this but i cant quite put my finger on it just yet. I gotta have it layed out with several diagrams layed out infront of me at once.
Notice that jumper i have from the park lamp position???
Remove the jumper, otherwise you will have the headlights coming on with the switch in the park position.
Fuse sizes are determined by what size wire you are protecting.
I don't know how many amps the headlights draw.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 29, 2007, 12:11:55 AM
i suppose there really isnt any way around not using two relays at the least , one for the park lamps and the other for the headlamps.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: CougarSE on October 29, 2007, 12:17:26 AM
Quote from: jcassity;183655
hummm.....................
ok,, ill bite. where is the headlamp breaker? never seen it nor do i think i ever will. Our main light switch is fuse link fed.,,not breaker controled.
And so you will never see it. Take a switch apart and open your eyes.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: jcassity on October 29, 2007, 08:13:33 AM
Quote from: CougarSE;185158
And so you will never see it. Take a switch apart and open your eyes.
what do you have on this?
Quote from: CougarSE;185121
Everyone down south is lazy,
no im not lazy,, id love to show you real work.
Title: Headlight Switch Overheating
Post by: CougarSE on October 29, 2007, 09:05:47 AM
Simply put there is a breaker inside the Headlight switch.