I
finally got the front half of my 5-lug swap done today and drove it around. The whole process went quite smoothly, except for a missing spindle-caliper bracket bolt.
"New" parts:
- '03-'04 Cobra LCAs
- Koni Double Adjustable coil-overs (275 lb/in - 12")
- Maximum Motorsports Caster / Camber Plates
- '94-95 SN95 Spindles
- SN95 Outer Tie Rod Ends
- '99-'04 V6/GT Calipers
- '99 Cobra Wheels (17x8 - 30mm offset)
- spoogeho Ecsta ASX 225/45/17
A '03-'04 Cobra rack and solid steering shaft had already been installed beforehand.
I only drove it a short distance to test out the brakes, but the difference was very noticeable. I did two ~55-5 braking stints and was amazed at the amount of feedback that was apparent. The old setup (stock with spoogeho A/S 795s 205/70/14 ) would lock up the RF with a quickness; especially in the wet. It was downright dangerous and the cause of an offroad excursion several months ago. Disassembly of the old calipers didn't offer any answers to why it was so.
I didn't really notice the 140% increase in wheel rate. Maybe I will after the newness wears off, but the ride appears to be just as smooth as before. No added NVH.
The '99-'04 V6/GT calipers are cast aluminum with two 44.5mm pistons. This results in a 10% piston area. That, when superimposed with the 11" rotor, makes for a system with is biased ~20% more towards the front. An aftermarket proportioning valve is a good idea. If you are going to upgrade to SN95 spindles, but aren't going to use the Cobra setup; I would highly recommend the '99-'04 V6/GT calipers, they're lighter and stiffer than the single piston steel '94-'98 calipers. The only downside is they're a bit more expensive.
I found that '94-'95 spindles increased track width from 58 3/8" to 59 7/32" (w/'99 Cobra wheels). This ends up to be an actual increase of .9" when the difference in wheel offsets is accounted for. The stock wheels are 14x5.5" with 1.12" (28.45mm) offset. The wheel/tire combo lines up almost exactly with the outer fender. If you drop a plumb bob from the fender, it
just clears the tire.
The OEM strut is 23.6875" (all decimals are just a manifestation of their fractional equivalent) when measured from the bottom mounting hole to the end of the threaded portion of the shaft.
The Koni strut is 22.125" long
Given this information, I believed it was possible to run the Koni struts and only lower the car ~1". I forgot about the C/C plates up top. :hick: They raised the strut relative to the top of the strut tower.
The OEM strut mount positions the strut 1.5925" above the sheetmetal.
The MM C/C plates moves the strut to 2.25" above the tower.
Thus, the distance from the top of the strut tower sheetmetal to the lower spindle mounting bolt for the two are:
OEM: 22.095"
Koni: 19.875"
A difference of 2.22" :punchballs:
The OEM strut has 6.875" of travel, versus the Koni's 6.125". This means, at full compression (negating the fact that the bumpstop cannot compress to 0") the previous measure is:
OEM: 15.22"
Koni: 13.75"
A difference of 1.47" If you try and average out the two differences in length to calculate ride height, you will end up running 1.845" lower to achieve the correct proportions of bump/droop travel.
Clear as mud? Kewl. ;) Basically, it means you must lower the car at least 1.845" to run Fox Mustang Koni D/A struts. I don't have exact measurements for SN95 Koni struts, but by my best guess; they don't turn out much better.
I don't want to lower my car that much, so I am going to cheat on droop travel (unless it ends up causing poor driving characteristics) and by raising it some. The only possible solution might be Koni's SA strut inserts (http://"http://www.koni-na.com/pdf/boltstrut.pdf"). Depending on the insert length, you could cut the original strut higher than intended and use a spacer at the bottom to get a bit more length out of the setup.
The 2nd half of the project will be completed (hopefully) in two weeks.
7.5" w/'99-'04 axles, Eaton TrueTrac, 3.08 gears from Motives Gears, and all new bearings.
[SIZE="3"]---------------Pictures---------------[/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"]
My friend Scott helping get this party started right[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug%20004_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]Old'n'Busted[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 019_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]Ye ole strut[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 040_r_f.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]BRAKE FAILURE IMMINENT[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug%20006_c_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]Old LCA Bushing[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 014_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]New LCA Bushing[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 062_c_r2.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]
'03-'04 Cobra LCA[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 059_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]
Koni/OEM Comparison[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 031_c_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]Closeup[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 032_c_r.jpg)
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/strut 013_c_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]Remember kids - Safety First![/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 092_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]Clearancing the spindles for the 99+ calipers[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 094_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]Brake bracket that needs to be modified to work the the 99+ hoses[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 095_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]Not much clearance between the hose and chassis[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 099_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]
$17 bolt - I thought it would cook me breakfast for that price[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 082_c_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]The New Hawtness[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 100_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]New setup with unadjusted tie-rods[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 072_r.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]Side Profile[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 074_r2.jpg)
[SIZE="1"]
Finished product. Poor T-bird needs paint and bodywork something fierce :(
You can see the hood/header panel/fender misalignment caused by my agricultural excursion[/SIZE]
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 103_r.jpg)
Both cars. Both needing much TLC.
(http://griffshp.com/belchja/forums/5lug/5lug 106_r.jpg)
OK, You said that you used a SN95 steering rack?
And by this:
If you are going to upgrade to SN95 spindles, but aren't going to use the Cobra setup; I would highly recommend the '99-'04 V6/GT spindles, they're lighter and stiffer than the single piston steel '94-'98 calipers. The only downside is they're a bit more expensive.
Do you mean spindle or caliper?
By the way, very nice.
Yeah, I meant calipers.
Engineer + Tbird = Results!
Nice progress Jeremy. Just curious, why the 03-04 a-arms were chosen...?
My 88 TC was the first car I worked on (somewhat still is...on going project!) back when I bought it at 17 yrs old so I did things kinda of mixed up and without research. :hick: This is why I ended up years later with a 13" cobra brakes and then just recently fox mustang a-arms to finally fix my front track (it was about 1" to wide on each side with the 95 R's - 17x9, 24mm - that were perfect with my stock brakes)...
Anyway, just kind of curious if you know if there is a track width difference between your brakes (new) and the 13" cobras like I have. Always wondering if there is a better setup especially because I still don't know if I'm going to be able to dial in the optimal amount of negative camber...
The '03-'04 arms are the same length as '87-'88 LCAs, but have stiffer bushings and an improved stamping that allows for greater steering angle.
They cost $189. New bushings and new ball joints cost ~$179. So, it was a no brainer for me to buy the Cobra arms.
The track width is determined by the spindle. If you have '96+ spindles, you'll increase your track width 5mm per side. (Some say 5mm, some say 8mm). If you have '94-'95 spindles, your track width will be the same as mine, excepting allowances for different wheel offsets.
That's strange. I have "94" spindles. But I got them from a junkyard back in WI. Wonder if they screwed up and sold me what was actually a later model piece... So the 94-95 spindles supposedly keep a similar track? My question then is: is the track width increase gained with 96+ spindles gained between the strut mount point and the wheel mount surface? The reason I ask is because my spindles pushed my 17x9 R's from sitting perfect (stock brakes) to sitting WAY outside the fender (WAY for me is about 1"). So, to correct this, I used 89 mustang arms, but this pulled everything in and I'm not sure my MM plates will have enough adjustment to correct it, even in the negative position (because the whole strut moved so much). :beatyoass:
oh man, I'm gonna be so pissed if all I needed was the 'correct' 94-95 spindles... I could have spent my time putting those poly bushings in my stock arms (NOT spent the money on stang arms) AND wouldn't have to take drastic measures to get negative camber (if that is the case - assuming you have 'normal' or stock like adjust-ability on top)...
Does this make sense? hit me back so I know if I should be pissed!! :mad:
PS: what did you have to clearance on those spindles? I didn't have to do anything... I seem to remember this was a difference between the 94-95 and 96+ spindles... i bet I have 96+
You only have to clearance the 94-95 spindles when you use the dual piston PBR calipers that are found on the 99-04 mustangs
JermeyB, did you just have to replace the outer tie rods? I'm not sure, some say you have to, and others say you don't. Also, where did you get the LCA's?
I didn't do anything with my tie-rods... perhaps he did because of the cobra rack..?
94-95 spindles have a curved steering arm. 96+ spindles have a straight arm. You can see the curved arm in two of the pictures. 94-95 spindles will add ~.9" of track width to wheels with 28.45mm offset. More/less offset will increase/decrease the change in track width.
I converted to metric tie rod ends (TREs) when I installed the SN95 rack (because the rack came with inners already installed). I had to use Taurus outers with the stock spindles, because the SN95 outers didn't have enough inward adjustment. I changed to SN95 TREs with the SN95 spindles because the Taurus TREs weren't long enough.
Fox cars use SAE threaded tie rods. SN95/Taurus cars use metric threaded tie rods. You cannot mix and match Fox/SN95 tie rods.
It sounds like booksix used his Fox tie rods. I am curious how much engagement there is between the inner/outer.
Ok, so do SN95 steering racks bolt right in? or are there some modifications that need to be done?
They bolt in, but the input shaft is different. You can buy a shaft from Maximum Motorsports that allows the Fox column and SN95 rack input shaft to mate.
Also, as I said earlier, you need to change the TREs too.
Taurus for stock spindles
SN95 for SN95 spindles
MMST-13 (http://"http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_14&products_id=461") $220.
Ok, so they must have a bigger backspace. At first I thought the offset difference was because your wheels are 17x8 and my are 17x9 but then I thought about it and realized it's just a different wheel... Ok, well, guess I need different wheels if I want to get a more stock strut setup...
anyone wanna buy 5 17x9 Cobra R's :D
Ok, thanks. That's a bit pricey thou. I wonder If I could fab my own up?
if you hafta "wonder" about it, i wouldnt suggest findin out on a part like a steering shaft.
Yea, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be to hard. I mean the guys at MM can do it.
And if it were that easy, MM wouldnt be in business.
Yea, but does the average person have access to a friend's machine shop?
btw jeremy, engagement was very poor... Maybe 1/2" into the TRE. But i have more than enough with the fox stang arms..
Looking mighty spiffy. I really liked the 11-inch PBR setup on my 87TC. Going disc out back?
Uh, is that Knox Creek? :)
Yes. My '99-'04 axles arrived Saturday, but one of the ABS tone rings was broken. D'oh. Nothing a new one (bought by the salvage yard that sent the axles) and a press won't fix.
I still need to trial fit the axles and SN95 brakes before I order the TrueTrac. As of yesterday, the "ship date" was 10/10. Today it has moved to 10/19. I don't want to know how far off it will be in a week.
After discs, paint. After paint, world domination!
It is by the Indian Creek Greenway.
Why would you go with the 99'+ axles? I've always thought that you had to go with the 94-98' axles for the rear to be the same width as stock?
The '99-'04 axles will still fit under the fenders with 17x8 wheels, so I decided to use them. Wider is better.
Also, to run discs on '85.5-'88 7.5" rears, you need the wider axles. '94-'98 stuff won't work.
That's good to know. I can find those for about 1/2 the price!
Can you confirm the axle length difference between the 84-98 and 99-04's? Everyone loves to say its 3/4 of an inch for everything width related.
Moser makes the 99+ axles 22/32" (.71875) longer than '94-'98 axles.
Hey Jeremy, just out of curiousity...:
Could you look and see if an 18x9 wheel with another 6mm of + offset would clear the fender with your new setup?
I don't know. The current wheel lip is about 1/16" in from the outside of the fender. I don't know how that will be when the suspension travels into bump.
I had no idea you had this project going, it's looking very good. I'm sure I will have some questions for you eventually.
Plus or minus .00005 of an inch. ;) Interesting thread.
Moser will make any custom axles for not much more than stang ones are. I have 4 lug 31 spline ChroMoly in my 8.8 TC rear that they charged me about $230 for.
jeremy
great work there.
couple thoughts / quesitons.
The cobra LCA you posted looks identical to the ones i pulled out from my car. Are they identical in looks to stock?
The Koni strut looks like the only difference is the location of the 2hole mounting plate surface. correct?
The adjustment on those springs,, is the adjuster and threaded portion aluminum?
good thread, btw.
The '03/'04 Cobra arm has different bushings (stiffness, unsure if shells are the same), an improved stamping to allow for decreased turning radius, and I
believe the spring cup is 1/2" deeper.
Yes, besides the length differences.
Yes.
Still enjoying it, although I've yet to autocross it or drive it in anger. I'm pretty sure the inside tire lifts in hard turns due to the shorter Mustang strut, but I can't confirm it. I've got one more washer I can swap to lower the strut relative to the strut tower. I'd rather not lower it any more to keep the roll center, etc in check.
I drove in the rain on the interstate for the first time since the swap last week. Also hydroplaned for the first time ever. Good times! The car also skittered around several times when it hit standing water. I'm not sure if it's just the tires (spoogeho ASX) or what...
Other than those two things, me likey!