I've been doingsome reading on E85, but all the sites I've looked at seem to want to pimp the FFVs. if i run E85 in my car, would there be any damage? what's the story?
Without any way to "tune" it, it's not going to run very well at all.
Most of the conversions the turbo guys are doing are requiring injectors that are 25-30% larger.
You can't just pull up to the pump and fill your non-flex-fuel car with E85.
There has been alot of discussion on turboford.org and a few guys have converted theirs over, but it's not going to work with stock electronics....
Yes, it will damage your car if you run E85. It is 85% ethanol (alcohol) and 15% gasoline. You need to beef up the fuel system and injectors and run a programmable ECU if you want to use the stuff.
Edit: dammit, you beat me
ok, thanks! it just seems very tempting with it being cheaper
also no one's mentioned why alcohol-fueled cars use silicone fuel-handling materials and gasoline cars use all rubber materials.
alcohol = dries out/wears down quickly/whatever rubber
gasoline = bascially eats away at silicone.
youd have to essentially rip out most of your fuel delivery system, you injectors' gaskets have to be changed, etc....
yeah, sucks. i hope that with time that will be less costly and there will be "kits" and specialty "conversion" parts for whatever manufacturer and platform/engine/chassis you got. maybe not specific to the model but maybe like for fox cars, or for any ford with a 302 EFI etc....
though honestly what i would LOVE to have right now is a diesel. im be runnin' around to all the fast food joints grabbin up veggie oil. if i had a little more money id seriously do that too, with like an old 80s Benz or some cheap diesel, so if the veggie stuff ruined it, so what, not like im out $5000. id make a custom ultra-powerful fuel tank heater to keep it real warm and thin and everything, ill bet it wouldnt even get ruined!
No one has aderessed it, as the guys who are running E85 haven't seen any problems. Most of the EFI cars don't use rubber, and haven't in a while..
Not one of the turboford guys who are running it (perhaps 6?) changed anything but their injector sizing and the programming.
One of the many threads HERE (http://www.turboford.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=044561)...
The biggest problem I see is availability. There are a grand total of two stations in Columbus selling E85. Both are on the opposite side of town from me. I'd have to drive 20 miles just to fill up.
NO WAY!!!! That's pretty awesome. I thought FFV's included a completely different delivery system. Though it sounds like changing the air fuel ratio isnt child's play the whole changeover to e85 isnt nearly as bad as i once thought.
Pretty cool.
Well , I didn't think it was going to be THAT easy.
There's a lot of stories and whatnot of people "claiming" that E85 ate up fuel lines, pumps, and stuff.
I say PROVE IT.
I ran some stuff in my truck a coupla summers ago...was more than 85% alkie, didn't hurt anything.
I DID have to replace a FPR later on, but that was bad BEFORE the alkie was ever used.
The FFV stuff can detect the E85 fuel, and the EEC compensates for it.
Ideally, a higher compression engine would be better suited for a strictly performance gain, as alcohol burns cooler than gas.
But then, we ALL know that more compression means more power etc etc....
would E85 work in the older 70's carburated cars?
That;s where you'll run into alot more rubber components...... so that would be an issue.
Aside from that, upsizing the fueling (jets, etc)...its should be the same...
Add a Little 2 stroke oil to it,
I apologize for not reading the linked thread...but the conlcusion I have made is that the current price of E85 doesn't outweight the mpg decrease you see with it. Anybody have prices that makes it cheaper to run E85.
If you have a turbo system, you can run more timing...but it still costs more gaswise. However, sometimes one wants power more than money.
tm.com (http://"http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0")
Another good bit of info
The turbo guys aren't suffering that much of a mileage loss...
I think the actual mileage loss will vary.
I'm not even sure what E85 is running these days.....
I was basing my information on this (http://"http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32040&highlight=e85+corn+boost") thread.
His fuel mpg decreased by ~27%, but his fuel cost only went down 22%. Actual fuel costs were $1.50 for E85 and $2.25 for unleaded (at the time).
Actual fuel mileage will vary, but the variation is mostly on the
poorer side since the lambda for peak power with E85 is lower than unleaded gasoline. Unless you go crazy with enrichment, the % loss should be fairly uniform since your reducing the energy density of the fuel a uniform amount.
E85 has approximately 65% of the energy density of gasoline. You'll get a bit of efficiency increase from decreased pumping losses, which gets up to ~70-75% of gasoline's fuel efficiency. Dedicated E85 engines fare better since they have increased compression ratios (because E85's octane is far higher than std. unleaded gasoline).
I guess that's where i get lost. if the octane is higher, wouldn't the efficiency be better and the milage better? isn't that why they offer 92% octane gas? isn't it supposed to be better than the 87% octane? so why would E85 be not as efficient if it has a higher octane??
The higher octane allows you to increase the timing a few degrees, but the timing increase isn't going to make up for the 35% less energy per lb that the E85 has compared to gasoline.
I threw all the 2007 FFV vehicles into a spreadsheet and compared their city and highway EPA mileage estimates. From a pool of 33 vehicles-
E85 got 74.6% of gas's city mpg
E85 got 74.1% of gas's highway mpg
Ok, so what is E85s price per gallon? You see were comparing economy the wrong way here. Miles per gallon doesn't mean didly $h|t to me for comparison. What I want to know is miles per dollar.
Yes, I realize that.
Using E85fuelpices as a source - 21 data points from around the US.
The cheapest E85 station cost had E85 for 75% of gasoline
The most expensive E85 station cost had E85 for 100% of gasoline
The average E85 station had E85 for 89% of the price of gasoline.
So, using the average cost differential and considering gas is just below $3.00/ gal here and rounding it up to an even $3.00 for calculating purposes, my stock 5.0 EFI getting roughly 25 mpg and a 22 gallon tank:
Fuel / Cost per gal / cost per fill / tot mi/fill / Cost/miE85.. / $2.67 / $58.74 / 412 mi / $0.144
Gas.. / $3.00 / $66.00 / 550 mi / $0.12
Now we have some base "facts" to work with. So now let's consider performance. Does E85's higher octane rating give me more power? Will my car accelerate better with it? If so it might just be worth and extra 2.4 cents per mile.
What about engine maint.? E85 burns cleaner and cooler which means less oil breakdown and dirt not to mention less acid in the oil (by pruduct of gasoline). So I may be able to extend the life of my oil by, let's go conservative here, 500 miles? Cost of an oil change with Mobil 1 is around $40.00 (with filter) every 2000 mi (on gas). Adding 500 miles between changes saves me.... (clickety-click on the calculator) Hmmmm..... 2 cents a mile.
EDIT: Just took into cosideration less heat and cleaner burning would extend the overall life of the engine, less worries about varnish, less worries about fuel line freeze in the winter (main ingrediant of fuel line antifreeze is acohol), longer spark plug life....
And of course the main reason for switching to E85 is to get a cleaner environment. Hell that's worth half a penny a mile on it's own.
Tough call isn't it?
Using your numbers, the longer oil change interval saves you .4 cents/mile, not 2 cents/mile.
Using those numbers, gasoline is 2 cents/mile cheaper. Which comes out to saving $200 for every 10,000 miles driven.
On the plus side, you get about 5% more power with the E85.
Not to hijack this thread or anything, but is this E85 fuel really catching on down south? Do most stations carry the stuff now?
We do not have any ethanol blended gas available yet in Manitoba. We probably still sell all the E we produce at the real Canadian Liquor Store.
Using your correction, E85 would be 1.6 cents a mile cheaper.
Every gas station around has a 10% blend, and thats all you can get.
When compared directly, E85 is 2.4 cents/mile more expensive than gasoline.
Getting 500 extra miles from a $40 2000 mile oil change interval saves you .4 cents/mile.
So 2.4 - .4 = 2.0 cent/mile. E85 is 2.0 cents/mile more expensive.
Would you like me to post the spreadsheet I used to do all the calculations?
Sorry, misread your last post. That's what happens when your cat steals your glasses in the night. I'll have to find the calculator again and see where I scwewed up.