im home this weekend, and my o2 sensor extension wires came.
i hooked up those spare sensors i had, which dad bought a few years ago and never put on. problem is, i discovered only yesterday the one was a Bosch 15716, which corresponds to some 5.0L cars but not ours. an ebay listing mentioned 95 mistangs, e350s, etc.
so i bought a new 13942, so now i have two 13942's like im supposed to, and there is still no improvement in power, and the MPG is still bad, and i get one KOER code: 91 - "HEGO sensor circuit indicates system lean (left side)." btw, what does left side mean?.
with a multimeter i checked the continuity between the pass. o2 sensor casing, and the bolt that holds the pass. side "ring" connector whose wire comes from the o2 sensor harness to the cyl. head. it beeped, so the connection is good, between the h-pipe, header, etc. i didnt bother to do the other side, ill have to check it to be sure.
whats a little curious though is that the old oxygen sensors arent all black with soot. ?????
what other tests can i do? is there anything else that could be a factor? the code 91 is a red flag to me that its the o2 sensors. if its constantly getting a lean signal then it will keep dumping too much fuel in, right?
at some point im gonna start considering paying a friggin shop to figure this mess out for me, because im really sick of it. anyone else ever reach that point? :toilet: lol
Best check I've found is to peirce the wire and measure the voltage of the sensor while it is running. It should be varying between 0-1V as the engine is running/gunning the accellerator. A bad sensor usually just sits at a value.
I'd guess your left side sensor signal isn't making it back to the ECU.
okay, so now, gotta ask lol, which is the left side!!?? :giggle:
looking at the car from the back, or from the front?
oh also which wire do i pierce? what does each of them do?
sitting in the drivers seat your left is the cars left.
Driver is left, passanger is right...
alright. so, now which wire coming from the sensor should i be testing for voltage? i found a graphic of the plug and which pin is which on fordfuelinjection.com but its more proof of jcassity's claim that the site sucks. its amibiguous as to whether or not the view is looking at the female plug, or the male end, as in the one actually wired to the sensor itself, not the one on the car's wiring harness. all i know is i have 3 wires, two white, one black.
(http://fordfuelinjection.com/images/hego02.gif)
and looking at this picture if say, this corresponds to looking at the sensor's plug (male), then the white ones are at "+12 VOLTS" and "HEGO", and the black one is at "GROUND". this doesnt make sense to me because i read on corral that these were grounded through the exhaust pipe. so basically i have no idea what any of the wires are for. i would guess that the black one is the signal which i should measure, since its the odd one out....:confused:
Without looking it up in wiring documents, I'd suggest disconnecting the sensors, use a meter with one side connected to chassis ground, and the other side to probe each pin of the connector.
Put the meter in volts mode, you then can locate the 12V wire,as the one with 12 Volts on it. (key on)
Then turn key off and put meter in ohm mode and you can locate the signal rtn and ground wire as they are connected to chassis and should be very low ohms.
This then leaves the one HEGO signal wire that you will need to peirce and monitor while the engine is running.
today i cut off a little bit of insulation on the black wire, i determined that to be the singal one because i put 12v power to the white ones and sure enough after about 20 seconds i could feel the tip of the sensor getting warm. so those are for the heater.
i tested the voltage (one lead on the multimeter to the wire and one to ground/battery negative right?)
and like 10 seconds after i started it the voltage came up to like .03 volts came back down (the meter goes to thousandths) fluctutating around .015-.010 ish and then i got in the car to rev it up a little and it was at flat zero, maybe .001, revving it didnt make it change. but it didnt ever reach 1V and definitely didnt go back and forth between that and zero in a pattern. so i bought a new one, now i have brand new sensors left and right. havent done a voltage test but i drove it and there is no change in the power and gas consumption.
i did however pull codes when i got home from my test drive and got 94 and 44, thermactor system inoperative both sides, so no problem there. but no other codes. so i guess the o2 circuit is ok now? i hate to say it but that sucks because now i have no idea whats wrong.
what do you guys suggest testing now?
next week is spring break.
im home the whole time, i need to ideas for what to check. im thinking i should run it and pull KOER codes once more to be sure the o2 sensor circuit is ok. should i STILL do voltage checks? aka, if i dont receive trouble codes having to do with the o2 sensors does that mean they're all fine, or not?
im trying to approach this logically. the things i changed are what we all (who have done the HO conversion) know.
-the heads had "e7te pa" stampings on them and the valve area looked much different than my old ones, with no divider between the valves.
-the upper intake has an HO stamping on the tube thats casted as part of it that is under the "5.0 liter" plaque, you have to take the plaque off to see it. but then i could have left the UI alone, id lose like 5 hp according to coolcats.net
-throttle body and egr spacer. they are the same size, both much bigger than my original one. they must be right. they also match exactly the hole in the UI. the guy i got em from on corral i trust, he had only good ratings and he frequents there, well, frequently. i dont think he was scamming me, besides, he didnt want $$$$$$$$$$ for em.
-lower intake, use my original according to coolcats
-injectors. got em from fordtruckfreek. they seem to be working because the engine runs smooth, doesnt buck, and they looked to be in good shape. the only thing was that the pintle caps were brittle and hard (dont know if thats how they should be?) i broke a tiny sliver of a couple of them off (the outer thin rim part of it) and heard a couple of them crackle a little as i pushed them into the lower intake. however i cant help but wonder, ONLY because they are something i changed and are different than the originals and are what get the fuel into the engine.
-camshaft, well i re arranged my plug wires to change the firing order to the claimed stang one, and it runs smooth and sounds like it should. the cam also looked different than my original. i also trust the guy on corral i got it from to have given me a mustang cam.
-computer, mark vii one from vinnietbird, how could that be messed up? again runs smoothly.
-MAP sensor i wonder about this thing. ebay. looks fine, BUT the code (E7S blah blah....) was EXACTLY the same as my old one. hmm. however there was white print on a different location than a similar (but not looking exactly the same) print on my old one, and it was a different code, but both about 5 characters i think.
-EVP/EGR sensor/valve--was included with TB. i wonder if it could be faulty. but i unplugged the vac line to it and capped off the line and the car didnt run any different.
i think thats everything. the only thing i can think of right now is the MAP sensor. i might try my old one.
the other thing i worry could have happened is assembling something internal wrong causing a whole bunch of friction loading the engine down. this would kill gas mileage and power, no? but wouldnt i be hearing knocking/banging/grinding/other noises that sound very malignant? wouldnt it have probably shredded something?
i will seriously consider bringing the car to local shop if you guys are as stumped as me. they are family owned, a fairly large place, weve been going there the past few years. honest, FAIR pricing, they tell you details if you want them, and just all around nice people. real CLEAN shop area too. they did my oil pan replacement (was rusted out real bad and leaking). id imagine theyd be able to find them problem.
whew. now im exhausted. lol so what do you guys think?
It may be worth it to run the car by a shop and have them look at it.Just have them tell you what's wrong,then you can fix it and save big $$$.Just a thought since you've devoted so much time into it and are still stumped like the rest of us.
would they do that? i dont really know if the one i mentioned would do that, and we're on very good terms with them. i think it would be impolite to have them diagnose it and then be like "oh no i dont want you to fix it". honestly they probably would but i think they wouldnt be very pleased.
do you think any chain places would do that for me (midas, valvoline, etc..) of course i wouldnt go to valvoline/jiffy lube because of horror stories ive heard from those places.
I haven't found a gargare that wouldn't do that.They'll charge you for their time and diagnosis,but the reapirs you can do yourself.
Sounds like a strange one. Only other thing on the HEGO's I would check is if the signal is actually at the computer (peirce the wire just at the computer connector)
What about the Mass Air Flow sensor, you didn't mention it in the write up..
Regarding the thermactor system, on mine, the thermactor solenoids were sticking. I did a simple test of just applying vacuum and then applying voltage to the solenoid. Some soaking with rubbing alcohol got some gunk out and got it working reliably again. These solenoids are the two that are in the passenger side near the firewall/fender, of which one controls the EGR vacuum. I can't see that being the running rich problem though.
still haven't got that thing fixed yet man that sucks, i hate the little things they always get you
Mass Air Flow sensor? don't got one. i left it speed density. i wasnt gonna spend all that extra $$ for something i likely wont use. (i think the HO will be plenty of power for me, this aint a hot rod, im like royce67/87/97 im preserving this thing as original but 150 horse just isnt enough for me. besides my whole engine bay still looks stock except for the headers)
the Thermactor System SHOULD be inoperative. I yanked the hoses and stuff since i got an off-road h pipe, and the crossover tube behind the heads, i pulled that, really frees up some space there! i plugged the holes in the heads with metal i cut out to the right shape, bolted on with the tube's bolts, and sealed with hi temp silicone.
i will certainly check at the computer. i have been exhaustive with the HEGO system because of the variables ive encountered with wondering if the old sensors were faulty but the results didnt agree etc....so i will continue to be exhaustive!
daboss, thanks for the sympathy! be happy you have a carbed ride!!! also thats anice tribute to that girl that died in the accident. thats horrible. what a waste. i cant imagine what it would be like if that happened to someone i knew. it shouldnt happen. my sincere condolences. just from the picture she seems like a genuinely nice person. may she rest in peace...:(
hope you get her running right, and thanks man, she was one of the nicest people you could know, and smart as hell, she was going places man i tell you.
I'm doing my HO swap in a about 6 days :D . I hope mine runs better than yours. If not we can trouble shoot together:hick:
good luck man!!! but i think the fact that its a swap makes it a LOT more likely youll be fine.
well, then this Friday ill check the HEGO voltage at the ecu. if that all checks out im bringing it to a shop. dont worry ill keep you guys posted! im sure youre all as curious as i am as to whats wrong.
It'll probably be that you forgot to plug in a wire conection or something easy:brick: . It always turns out to be something like that dosen't it......
well thats exactly what was preventing it from running in the first place! the HEGO wiring harness ground wire wasnt grounded!:bricks1: lol grounded it and she fired right up. i was absolutely ecstatic. my mom happened to come out in the garage as i started it, and i was jumping around and shouting because i was that happy that it was running, and she was quite evidently a tad creeped out.
i will likely act the same way when my 75 hp is unleashed.
Sorry, I'm late to the conversation, but I have read through the many posts. I have done a V6 to V8 conversion on my 88 Tbird and may be able to help you. I noticed you said the main problem with your conversion is the lack of power. I have some questions:
1) Does the car have "good" power after it is first started, acceleration wise? (The first few minutes after started the computer is running in open loop and does not pay attention to the O2's)
2) Have you checked for vacuum leaks around intake gaskets, etc?
Vacuum leaks cause a lean condition, that many times the computer can not compensate for, resulting in lean misfire and lack of power.
3) Have you checked the ignition timing? With the spout connector unplugged the timing should be 10deg BTDC. If timing is at 0deg or even retarded, the engine will be a dog.
No problem!!! Im happy you're here period. You brought up one important point about timing--im not sure i disconnected the SPOUT thing. thats the small "jumper" thing thats essentially a set of wires that seems to just end but has this plug on the end that you can just pull off, right? i think i did, but im not sure. i set the timing at 12 degrees actually.
i dont really know about closed vs open loop, but you said first few minutes, and from my house it takes maybe 30 seconds to a minute to get out of my neighborhood and onto the main 40mph road, and i have tried accelerating almost full throttle onto that road, after a cold start, and i dont think theres any power difference. not a significant one anyway that i can detect.
i have thought about vacuum leaks. where do i start? LOL so many of them. would an auto parts store loan a vacuum gauge? how do i use it, where do i hook it up? what numbers should i see?
now, about the o2 sensors. i stripped a little insulation away from the wires to pins 29 and 43 on the ecu, and tested the voltage. sitting there idling (ill mention it now both sensors did the same things i will describe here, i checked them individually under the same conditions) the reading sat at 0.80 volts, fluctuating maybe +/- .02 or .03 volts or so, if i revved it it would sometimes go down a little more.
on the road pretty much every time id hit the gas it would come down to .7 or .6, sometimes to .4 , once or twice it went as far as .3 volts. it seemed to follow a trend of dipping lower the more i opened the throttle. cruising it stayed again about .8 maybe dipping to .7 but staying in that area.
is this a good sign? neither just sat at a value all the time. especially when driving the reading was just about always changing.
In my opinion the HEGO sensors are probably good. Its normal to see them vary like you did, and also depends on how fast your meter reacts. Bottom line they are getting to the computer.
okay. thats all i wanted, a second opinion, and confirmation that the way they were acting is alright. i remember someone saying "they should fluctuate between 0 and 1V" and i interpreted that as the reading should alternate back and forth from flat 0 to 1 constantly, just those two values.
i guess ill pull codes again to be sure, i also mentioned the MAP sensor before im gonna swap the old one in tomorrow and see if anything changes. if not then im throwing in the towel and bringing it to a shop.
According to JCassity's write-up:
O2 sensor check
start car
set meter to ******** AC ****** yep, i said AC.
ground out black meter lead anywhere logical
prob o2 sensor conn, should read about .3 to .5 volts ******* AC***
with the meter lead somehow secure on the conn, increase the throttle by hand.
the ac reading should increase to about .9 VAC.
repeat test for the other o2 sensor.
TIMING.
i hook up the light, check it, yup 10 deg BTDC. i shut it off, unplug the SPOUT, crank er back up, check it again, bam almost 10 deg BEFORE tdc. when i pulled the spout off i thought "i dont remember doing this", having to tug on each of those side tabs to get them undone so i could pull it out, it didnt feel familiar at all.
wow. my mileage has jumped right back to where it used to be! and i think there is more power. but its still wishy-washy, im not real sure. so i gotta take it out with the g-tech and get a 0-60 time, then ill know for sure.
but im SO glad its not just sucking down gas anymore. that was awful, my average reading said like 11.4 mpg :punchballs:
however i WILL still do jcassity's check! cant believe i never thought to search posts by him and find that! interesting, the whole "ac" thing. ill post the results.
Yeah..ALWAYS check base timing with the SPOUT out..... Plugging it in advances it about 20*. It had to have been running like poo at 10*ATDC
well i just changed my o2 sensor and now my car shakes like a massage chair. are the 2 related?
timing is first thing on the agenda for me this afternoon since i seem to be having the same issues.
Zonda, check your vacuo lines. My car ran like shiznit for months, got py gas mileage, and had no power after swapping out the fpr. it ran like a top after I fixed the vacuum line that goes to the map sensor.
im gonna check vac stuff tomorrow. not bad, just pull the upper intake and look at everything. ill also double check the lines to the air pump diverters i capped off.
one last thing about timing. 10 deg BTDC. assuming everything else is fine, is THAT the timing setting on a mustang, as in with 10 deg WILL i have 225 hp like i should? should i bother trying to advance it a little? i mean, if i can go up to like 12 degrees, say, what HP gain is that? 1 hp? 5hp? more? if i dont stand to gain a significant amount i dont feel its worth the extra 20 cents or more per gallon to get the higher grade stuff.
and just to cover all bases, what role does the MAP sensor have in this? or none at all? if it was faulty would the car even run? again if its not that important, tell me. im just checking everything that has been changed in the process of working on this. so in that case, the egr valve too. if that was stuck/incorrectly operating would i have received a trouble code for it? i didnt. not for anything besides the thermactor system, which again, i disabled by capping off those vac lines and removing the diverters.
finally, it is possible to just slap my hand over the throttle body as its idling and seal it right up, and if it doesnt stall right out could that indicate a vac leak? with the force of the air suction might vac lines collapse/rupture/etc? i dont wanna damage anything but it seems like a quick-and-dirty way to know IF there are vac leak(s)
vac leaks sooooo suck. i'm going to have to replace every single vac line in the near future.
the MAP is quite important (the reason escapes me at the moment) and is easily checked. (courtesy of JCassity again)
Map sensor check
Apply vac pres of about 15lbs to the map, if it holds vac, move on to next step
Key on engine off test
map sensor signal output is the DB/LG wire
**compare output of like maps and average thier outputs if possible per the shop manual
**your altitude is proportional to the barometric presure which the map works off of.
altitude in ft / voltage
0-----------------1.59
1000--------------1.56
2000--------------1.53
3000--------------1.50
4000--------------1.47
5000--------------1.44
6000--------------1.41
7000--------------1.39
If output is in range compared to other maps then move on
Plug off map vac line
apply a few lbs vac to map, like 5 to 8
start engine
slowly apply 15lbs vac and hold about 1500 rpm
while in this test, run the KOER quick test
are any map codes present? (ie-22) if no, then your problem is not the map, its another vac related issue.
alright i seem to have forgotten about checking the o2's again. i dont know, ive just gotten a little sidetracked yesterday and today. today i was checking vac lines. i looked at every connection on the upper intake and i cant find anything broken/loose/etc. all of the rubber end connectors are soft and pliable. i replaced the big fat hose going to the pcv valve when i did the conversion. it was hard as a ROCK so i figured that was bad. i could see the MAP sensor connection with a little mirror tool and a flashlight, clamped on there just fine like it was when i put it there during the conversion. i unplugged the vac hose form the MAP with the car idling. it died instantly as soon as i pulled the hose. just wondered what would happen.
the idle DOES NOT hunt at all. it sits at like 800 rpms very smoothly. (4 bars on the digi dash, so 800 give or take like 199 rpms right? :hick: ) but the idle is just like it was before the conversion. in drive it dips down another 200 or so like it should (like 650 or something is the spec right?) again no fluctuations.
i will do that AC voltage check tomorrow, and pull codes again just for the hell of it. i think next stop is a shop. the gas mileage isnt really where its supposed to be either, i dont think. i dont know why im not 100% positive but i really think at 30ish mph, flat road, it was always at like 31-33 MPG. now its like 25/26. thats better than before, the timing fix made it really shoot up! but i dont think its all the way there yet. honestly i wouldnt care if the thing took off like a bat outta hell but it doesnt! and it seems like the two are correlated to some degree so im gauging the likely power situation based on MPG. also since the g-tech wont friggin read out 0-60, keeps just giving me 1/4 mile time even though i slow back down after hitting 60, i used a stopwatch and got 9 seconds for 0-60. before the conversion the g-tech actually did show 0-60 like it should and i got 9.4 seconds. nope, im not at 225 horse yet. :mad:
if tomorrow's tests turn up nothing i think next stop is a shop. im really tired of this. i CANNOT believe no one else on this forum has had their H.O. conversion not affect their power at all. thats amazing. and now kingcars just did his, in 2 days mind you of straight 12 hour work, and the only problem he had was installing the wrong thermostat but his power is right where it should be, WITH stock exhaust manifolds. i got the headers!
i dont mean to rant but im sick of this troubleshooting. and i really dont feel like pulling this apart again, not even the upper intake. that thing is a bit heavy with the TB and egr spacer on it, and the vac hoses arent long enough, you gotta juggle it in the air and pull em off...i didnt have fun with that the first time. if i really wanted to check EVERYTHING perfectly i need to take stuff apart. no way. i dont care if its like $100 for a diagnosis. im done.
Sounds like your timing is set fine. You might want to just verify that the computer is advancing the timing correctly (with the spout connnector installed, the timing should advance as you rev the engine). I wouldn't worry about the gas mileage thing, 25/26 is still very good. I would still check to make sure you don't have a vacuum leak. You can buy a vacuum gage for cheap or just borrow one from Autozone. If all this checks out fine, you might want to verify that the engine still has good compression by doing a compression check on each cylinder. The HO conversion is worth 50-60 HP, which you should definitely be able to notice, especially in 4000-6000rpm range.
okay but re: the vacuum gauge, what should it read if everything is fine, what should i look for when reading it? might it fluctuate back and forth in a certain way if X condition occurs, read lower if X condition or Y condition, you get the idea. just give me a tutorial on vacuum gauges i guess. "vacuum gauges for dummies":D
i also cant get that AC voltage multimeter test to work. this is exactly the meter im working with--http://www.westlake-electronic.com/img.php?item_no=flu-87. setting it to AC voltage, the readout is like 140 something volts. with DC like i did before, the reading on both changes quite a bit. i went for a longer drive today while doing that and even cruising at 30 mph on flat road i noticed it changing by a large amount, going from .8 ish then dropping to .1 or just about 0 then coming back up to 8, sometimes stabilizing but often going back and forth.
i also did codes, KOER today, and got 21 94 44. once again those last two arent important but 21 is the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor out of voltage range. havent even gotten this one before with KOER. got it when i couldnt even get the car running and i was doing key off codes and that and the air charge temp sensor would come up but he car was cold, again wasnt even running. ive never gotten 21 with it running. just something new, and anything NEW throws a red flag for me. should i disregard it?
i guess i should also say that its not so much me as its my mom thats sick and tired of this. i mean i AM sick of the lack of power but as long as i keep getting new suggestions that bring me closer to a solution, i dont mind more troubleshooting as long im not wasting too much of my time/gas. my mom is sick of me going in and out of the house a lot, changing this trying that, running the thing to get codes or for whatever reason (loud exhaust, "shakes the house" as she says) and every other thing a mom wouldnt like about her son constantly doing stuff with his car--potential for a mess/spill in the garage, you get it.
i really would not like to spend a whole bunch of money to get it diagnosed. and thats gotta be the worst thing for a car guy to do right? have a SHOP find/fix a problem FOR YOU, instead of doing it yourself. but if we run out of ideas and the effort becomes useless ill certainly do it. i have to get results eventually, so ill do what i gotta to get there.
After KOER finishes presenting its codes, the timing will be base plus 20 degrees for two minutes. If the base is 10 then it should be 30 BTDC. This checks the EECs ability to advance the timing.
KOER code 21 is normal if the car is not warmed up.
The voltage generated by the O2 sensors is DC.
I don't understand where this checking it for AC stuff is coming from.
It sounds like your O2s are working.
Dude,
Don't sweat it. You'll figure it out or take somewhere and learn something new. Good job getting it running! I've been professionally working on cars for years and have been stumped countless times even by the simplest things.
Double check your firing order. On 2nd thought triple check it and make shure the distributor rotor is at #1 on the cap on the compression stroke. Check your fuel pressure and fuel filter under a load. Have a passenger check it or tape the gauge to the windshield. Fuel pressure should be about 32psi idle 40 psi wide open throttle. I wouldn't worry too much about the oxygen sensor codes for a no power problem.
One of the previous posts mentioned to check your timing during the end of the engine run self test where the pcm locks out the timing I believe at 20 degrees for a couple of minutes. This would verify the computer is advancing the timing. Or you could get some premium fuel, pull the spout and run just base timing. Keep advancing it till it knocks on wide open throttle. If it knocks back off the throttle and retard the timing. It's old school but that can work too.
Correct fire, fuel, timing and compression, the improvement should be noticeable.
Good luck,
Mike
softtouch, THATS where its coming from lol. i dunno i just believed it cause jcassity made that huge writeup on...well...everything.
ill look at the timing again.
t.birdsc aka Mike,
thanks, ill see if i can get a fuel pressure gauge, maybe a loaner from a parts store.
also you mentioned the fuel filter. whats the deal with those on these cars? i doubt if its ever been replaced, it looks rusty and old. not falling apart, just surface rust, and well it sure looks 20 years old. when if at all should they be replaced?
Change it! It may not fix it, but I've been burned by one of those before. Fuel supply could be an issue, your fuel pressure should at least be checked. Pump may not be supplying enough fuel, but I would wait on condemning that for awhile.
Firing order could be an issue too. The reason I say to check these things is I ran into some problems with one or both of these problems during my conversion. However, if I had to narrow it done to one thing on my car it would have to be firing order. I can't believe how dumb that was:punchballs: It felt like it wanted to go but fell flat on its face. I think I might have had a fuel supply/quality problem as well. Nevertheless, I still have plenty of kinks to work out on the vehicle. It's not a big deal though, I'm lucky to have a working Bronco.
I forgot to say why. It was a long time ago. The fuel filter I believe was on a Crown Vic. I remember thinking the fuel pressure was ok. Tuned it, cleaned the injectors, hung a map on it, no power. Shop foreman rode with me and said 'change the fuel filter' and I said fuel pressure was ok. He said change it I did and the car was fixed. lol. I guess it must have been a fuel supply issue at wot.
On the firing order make sure the rotor is pointing at the #1 terminal on the cap on the compression stroke.
To check it, pull the #1 spark plug out, put your finger in the hole and spin the motor, you should feel air pump out as the rotor turns past #1. I believe around 12 o'clock. If it does you know it is in correctly. A timing light wont help much if this is not correct 1st. If that is good check the fuel pressure. Then after those things you can try advancing the timing more.
Mike
This might be way off base, and if it is, I'm sorry and disregard, but is there a chance the O2 sensor wires could have been switched? By that I mean Driver side connected to Pass. side and vice versa?
This is probably a case of a weak fuel pump. Change the fuel filter first just for ease but installing a better fuel pump is good insurance against failure of the old pump anyhow.
I did an HO conversion a few years back and the car ran great at idle and low engine load but was lacking power at anything more then 3/4 throttle, even with a new fuel filter. I suspected fuel starvation, so I dropped the gas tank and installed a 155lph pump and then drove the car and ALL the power was there. A week or so later it's not a bad idea to pour in a bottle of good quality fuel injector cleaner in when u fill-up either.
You should use a T-fitting and tap into a vacuum line. The manifold vacuum should be in the 17 - 21 inHg range at engine idle, accessories off.
borrowed a vac gauge from my uncle, forked over $40 for a fuel press. gauge.
vac test
started up, 16 in, but the idle was high. it came down and stayed at normal idle, tiny bit over 17 in.
gave the gas a couple quick stabs, waited a couple seconds, checked it, 18 in. it stayed at that for the next 2 minutes i let it idle.
fuel pressure test
idle 32. didnt want to piss off the neighbors too much so i just gave it like 3 stabs at WOT. first was a quick stab, to the floor and right off, but it probably just about redlined. sounded nice!:D pressure slowly moved up to like 36 psi. this is the same number i got each time, the needle lazily inching up to it. second time i rolled it on to like 3/4 throttle, then quickly to the floor and off. third was a real lightning fast stomp then off again like it was scalding hot. i actually noticed the throttle response lagged by maybe a half-second, maybe not quite that much but definitely not right with me.
first of all is this good enough? please dont tell me i have to test it under WOT acceleration. the hose on the gauge is nowhere near long enough to close the hood on the hose and set the gaugse against the windshield.
should i even try changing the fuel filter? i will anyway just because its old but is there a chance thats the problem or is it probably the pump?
Fuel pressure is ok the way you are checking it. Yes, ideally you would like to see the fuel pressure when you are driving wot.(You could splice in an extension hose) The fuel pump is probably marginal at best. It can't hurt to change the filter though;however, I would try some other things before changing the fuel pump right now.
Did you check the rotor position as described in the previous post? Spark plug's porcelin should not be coal black or clean white. It should be a light gray or tan color.
Hopefully, these will check ok too.
Mike
just checked the rotor position. right where its supposed to be. checked the plugs for cyls 1 and 2, look exactly the same, as in the picture i attached. camera is old and not good with closeups or im not good at it so thats the best i can do. but the tan-white stuff on the center electrode is on the side youre looking at only, and its like a buildup on the side of it, almost reminds me of corrosion on a battery terminal or like pizza dough in a ball or something. theres also that tan-gray round stain, again, only on the side you can see, of the porcelain. goes like only 1/3 of the way around. but the rest of the porcelain (most of it) is pearly white, spotless.
the bent electrode is tan on the bend, dark gray on the end of it, darker gray where it meets the threads on the plug.
DARK gray/black on tip of center electrode.
Looks like a hot spot from the picture, is it bubbled up?......You DID upgrade your pump, correct? If you're using the stock SO pump you may run into fuel starvation issues......
first of all howd you get your sn changed? and why "V8Demon"? this is gonna be tough to get used to! lol
second--on the porcelain? yeah it seems like its a buildup of material, it doesnt line up with where the edge of the insulator should be.
ill see if i can get a better picture. gotta find by bro's digicam its newer and better.
no i didnt change the fuel pump. again on coolcats' h.o. site it says the stock pump is barely enough to handle the new injectors but again barely. so i should change the pump then? what do i have to get? just look for "mustang fuel pump" on ebay? or is there a model number or flow rate number i should look for? other than undoing the straps and dropping the tank is it a difficult job?
Well so far, I have had no issues with my stock fuel pump keeping up with the more fuel hungry HO, but I'm guessing that could change from car to car. The fuel pump was something that I initially thought would cause your car's lean condition, but I assumed you had already tried a new one since its one of the tips right on the site (yeah, I'm stupid). So yes, that is definitely a possiblity.
Ancient Chinese Secret! :rice:
The cougar's always been dubbed "Black Demon" and I'm a V8 kinda guy.... I put 'em together.
Using 6.5 pounds = 1 gallon of gas........(it's a close enough estimate, some fuels are more some less)
If an HO injector flows 19 pounds an hour than it flows about 2.92 gallons an hour X8 injectors = 23.38 gallons per hour.
1 gallon = 3.8 liter. The stock SO pump flows about 60-65 LPH. Lets be optimistic and say 65. So 65 divided by 3.8 = 17 gallons per hour flow.
This being said your pump SHOULD be changed.
14 pound injectors and a 65 LPH pump have been proven to support an HO motor with no horsepower loss on the dyno, but there is no safety margin.....
I can see bigger injectors with not enough pump causing issues during open loop operation -- especially if a car will not go into closed loop for some reason. In open loop the HEGO is bypassed for stored fuel/air ratios in the ecu accross the RPM range. EEC-IV controls fuel metering to a cylinder by opening/closing the fuel injector at certain intervals. In other words it won't measure the amount of gas going into the cylider at open loop. It will rely on the programming stored which is fine for stock applications, but with a pump designed to pump less fuel in a given amount of time, less gasoline than the desired amount enters the combustion chamber.
bigger injectors + not enough pump + open loop = not enough gas in the combustion chamber = problems at high RPM
Remember also: The numbers I used assume the injectors and pump are flowing as advertised too. An older pump with wear and tear on the impeller blades may have a significant drop in flow rate as well.
Oh, and check your fuel pressure with the vacuum line disconnected from the regulator. It should be around 40 PSI @idle with the line disconnected.
And lastly, What gap are the plugs set at?
just checked fuel press. again without regulator hooked up--42 psi.
plug gap? no idea. lol whatever the stock spec is! we had a friend of my uncle whos REALLY into everything ford do a tune up when i first started driving the car, had severe starting problems after sitting for awhile after a rainstorm ended. so he put in the current spark plugs. thus theyve got about 6k miles on them. ill go check the gap now, i just wanted to put the press. results up.
You need to check the fuel pressure under load. Free revving doesnt require much fuel, but driving it does.
i went to advance and got a 3/8" brake line union. i took the hose from my grease gun, and extended my fuel press. gauge line. it BARELY worked. i couldnt close the hood all the way, had to just get that latch thing to catch. it pressed the gauge face against the windshield and was tugging on the fuel rails. i was so pissed, just a tiny bit too short. :mad: it seems like that ALWAYS happens to me all the time. so i had to crouch down while driving, and of course its night so i got a little flashlight im shining at it. the 40 psi mark lines up with the "3" in 300 kPa so i look at that. even like 1/2 throttle to 30 mph got it right up there, and i think WOT up to like 40 mph got it just a little past actually. geez if this is whats necessary why the hell dont they make the hose longer????
so what now?
you say the plugs have 6k on then I would put new in with correct gap motorcrafts or autolites,this could be an issue.how are your wires and cap and rotor? if they are older replace them cheap investment
well the tuneup involved new cap, rotor, wires, the works.
originally we just wanted the leaky valve cover gaskets done. but he said he thought all that other stuff should be replaced too.
Ding ding ding! Did you say that you've got the same plugs from the SO? That's your problem. The HO (E7 heads) use different plugs than the SO (E6) head. If they are the plugs from the SO change them to HO plugs!
oh . is that why theyve been kinda hard to thread!? :flame: :wtf: :eek: :eek: :eek: i thought the threads in the heads were just dirty (although actually they thread fine until i start feeling a grinding so maybe it is dirt). are the threadings even different at all? im just always worried about messing up bolt threads, often irrepairable damage. if someone had told me, i woulda dun it! so...whats the difference anyway? ill go and get those today, but just curious.
i like the way you expressed the answer too, "ding ding ding!!!" yay i won the h.o. conversion game show!!! prize? pair of gt40 heads:evilgrin: a man can dream....
I think the reach is slightly different between the two....not sure on what else.
The E-6 plugs go deeper into the head than the E-7 plugs.Thread size is the same.
yup. changed em just now, tested it, i dont notice anything different. mileage numbers the same, and it doesnt have any more power.
oh and another thing i should have asked long ago--how much do you guys' engines shake at idle, 800 rpm? mine shudders just a little bit. if you open the throttle just a little, os it comes up to like 1000 rpm or a little more it stays exactly in one spot though. the only reason i never asked is i *think* its always done that but i figured id just check.
YEEEEHAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!
i dont really know what did it. the new plugs, the base timing i just bumped to 14 degrees, or both. but i just took it out, tried something new with the gtech--yup--you gotta stop accelerating, preferably brake a little, RIGHT when you see the 0-60 time come up, and it sneaks up on you and you gotta look right at it to be ready.
i gotta be honest, i think part of the problem is that i was too demanding. i expected a really big difference seat of the pants. i thought i was really gonna get pushed back into my seat. though tonight i gotta say it was pretty rough, and notable is how long she spun those grippy mean snow tires which i think are a little bit bigger than normal ones. they were spinning for a good 1-2 seconds! whereas a few days ago last time i tested it 0-60 i doubt if they did for a second. every time i do this i always hold the brakes and build the converter right up to ~1800 rpms. so probably with less wheelspin id probably go even faster! ill probably run it again sometime, see what i can get. but i did like hearing em howl! and really where the difference is, i know, high end rpms. i guess because theres not as much gain down low it disappointed me driving around town. but in this test, once it got to like 3k, it was pulling a LOT harder than it did before! that is really amazing. it was a DOG there before.
now about the timing. not during this test or driving to get where i did it did i notice ANY pinging. my cousin told me that i would not miss it if it were, that its loud and distinctive enough that even with my loud exhaust id know it. so im leaving it there at 14 deg. unless anyone says i shouldnt! speak now or..........you know the rest.
i have never been so happy with this car. i cant wait to tell my friend that its faster as his moms 03 acura 3.2TL to 60 mph!!!! :cougarsmily:
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html
"1999 Acura 3.2TL 7.4 15.7" second number is the 1/4 mile time.
there is no hp increase between the 99 and 03 model. coincidentally, both cars make 225 hp!!!
THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP GUYS!
Darn I already have GT-40P heads:D
I noticed that you hit 0-60 in 7.1 seconds. Pretty good for a car with a peg leg 3.08. I'm betting that when I get my HO swap done with the GT-40P heads and 3.73 Trac-Lok I should go 0-60 in ~6.5-6.8 seconds.
Oh where do you do these *tests* :D ? If I tried to do that by me the cops would nail my ass.